Hating Corporate Law - What do I do? Forum
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Hating Corporate Law - What do I do?
I have the double whammy of both disliking corporate law, and not being good at it, which only makes me dislike it more. Although everyone finds associate work boring, the prize (partnership) doesn't seem like all it's cracked up to be. These people work like dogs, and based on my observations fall into 2 types: those who love the work and those who hate it. The so called sociopathic partners are by and large good people who are miserable 80 hours a week and therefore make all their constituents miserable as well. I figured everyone probably just did this for the money, but from dating someone whose parent is a rainmaker and getting to know a few partners, a good percentage of people live for this shit and are therefore happy and pleasant to be around.
I found law school intellectually stimulating, and while there was a higher percentage of assholes and weirdos, there was also a higher percentage of truly great people - those who were smart, interesting and kind. So why corporate? As a summer, I was only exposed to corporate twice. I watched a negotiation between our deal team and another firm's deal team, and researched and wrote a memo about something related to the deal. I loved the people, and loved the work. I now realize that the work that attracted me to corporate is at most 5% of the work lawyers do, and I was exposed to some of the most pleasant of people, most of whom have since left. It seems like most people who stay in for the long haul are not excited about the work so much as they're excited about the size of the deal - the more money changing hands and the more mansions the client owns, the more exciting the deal. It's not only that I don't find discussing the lives of rich and famous people interesting, but also that the people who do remind me of the brat in second grade who ran around yelling, "my daddy makes more money than your daddy."
I enjoyed law school because I like being challenged intellectually or at least being forced to think through something. I enjoyed big law at first, because I like being around smart people and also love being on a team. However, my experience has been big law isn't actually team oriented. You have a bunch of people always judging each other, looking for any reason to cross someone off and to outshine those they're working with. My expectation was that each deal team was a conglomerate uniting as one to outperform opposing counsel, which is probably unrealistic.
My questions are: (1) is it different elsewhere?, (2) are my gripes common?, (3) has anyone who has felt like me wound up happy?
I found law school intellectually stimulating, and while there was a higher percentage of assholes and weirdos, there was also a higher percentage of truly great people - those who were smart, interesting and kind. So why corporate? As a summer, I was only exposed to corporate twice. I watched a negotiation between our deal team and another firm's deal team, and researched and wrote a memo about something related to the deal. I loved the people, and loved the work. I now realize that the work that attracted me to corporate is at most 5% of the work lawyers do, and I was exposed to some of the most pleasant of people, most of whom have since left. It seems like most people who stay in for the long haul are not excited about the work so much as they're excited about the size of the deal - the more money changing hands and the more mansions the client owns, the more exciting the deal. It's not only that I don't find discussing the lives of rich and famous people interesting, but also that the people who do remind me of the brat in second grade who ran around yelling, "my daddy makes more money than your daddy."
I enjoyed law school because I like being challenged intellectually or at least being forced to think through something. I enjoyed big law at first, because I like being around smart people and also love being on a team. However, my experience has been big law isn't actually team oriented. You have a bunch of people always judging each other, looking for any reason to cross someone off and to outshine those they're working with. My expectation was that each deal team was a conglomerate uniting as one to outperform opposing counsel, which is probably unrealistic.
My questions are: (1) is it different elsewhere?, (2) are my gripes common?, (3) has anyone who has felt like me wound up happy?
- kellyfrost
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Re: Hating Corporate Law - What do I do?
1): That is very possible, but depends on the facts.
2): Yes.
3) That is very possible as well, but hard to put a clear number or percentage on it.
2): Yes.
3) That is very possible as well, but hard to put a clear number or percentage on it.
Last edited by kellyfrost on Sat Jan 27, 2018 3:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- Lacepiece23
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Re: Hating Corporate Law - What do I do?
Switch to Lit. Sounds like that would solve a lot of your problems. Although discovery can still suck.
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Re: Hating Corporate Law - What do I do?
1) Depends on how different. Team dynamics may be different, but corporate law at other large firms is going to be similar.
2) Yes.
3) I quit after a few years because I realized that I was never going to be happy doing that work. It doesn't become different if that's what you're asking about. Anyway, it's a large world out there - if you don't have any loans and some savings, you can do whatever you want (either in another area of law or outside of law).
2) Yes.
3) I quit after a few years because I realized that I was never going to be happy doing that work. It doesn't become different if that's what you're asking about. Anyway, it's a large world out there - if you don't have any loans and some savings, you can do whatever you want (either in another area of law or outside of law).
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Re: Hating Corporate Law - What do I do?
How do you do this? I get calls from recruiters, but nobody willing to help me move into lit. Although I know I'd offer more value in lit, nobody else knows it and I can't prove it. My concern is all the firms wanting to bring me in for corporate interviews will bail the second I express an interest in lit so there's a real possibility of both not getting lit and not having any income.Lacepiece23 wrote:Switch to Lit. Sounds like that would solve a lot of your problems. Although discovery can still suck.
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Re: Hating Corporate Law - What do I do?
Why not apply for in-house jobs? Or non-law jobs? What did you do before law school?
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Re: Hating Corporate Law - What do I do?
Maybe try an internal transfer or get a clerkship?Anonymous User wrote:How do you do this? I get calls from recruiters, but nobody willing to help me move into lit. Although I know I'd offer more value in lit, nobody else knows it and I can't prove it. My concern is all the firms wanting to bring me in for corporate interviews will bail the second I express an interest in lit so there's a real possibility of both not getting lit and not having any income.Lacepiece23 wrote:Switch to Lit. Sounds like that would solve a lot of your problems. Although discovery can still suck.
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Re: Hating Corporate Law - What do I do?
For personal reasons I can't take that paycut, and the truth is that having a child will likely snap me out from my humanitarian daydreams. My prior career was sales related without getting into too much detail, and my thinking was that big law is fantastic, because it's a fusion of sales, intellect and teamwork, but I'm starting to think that maybe it's none of these things.
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Re: Hating Corporate Law - What do I do?
Biglaw is paperwork, paperwork, arguing over minutiae with team members and the other side, and more paperwork...it doesn't get better, although the more senior you are, the more you can bill to having conference calls.Anonymous User wrote:For personal reasons I can't take that paycut, and the truth is that having a child will likely snap me out from my humanitarian daydreams. My prior career was sales related without getting into too much detail, and my thinking was that big law is fantastic, because it's a fusion of sales, intellect and teamwork, but I'm starting to think that maybe it's none of these things.
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Re: Hating Corporate Law - What do I do?
It sucks and I'm sure a lot of your coworkers feel the same way. I think you have a few options:
1) Stick it out for a couple years, move in-house, and then move to a business role
2) Go back to school to get Degree X and then move on with life and whatever loans you still have
3) Try to apply for something else that you can do immediately that doesn't require a particular degree/prior path (e.g., consulting jobs, foreign service)
Whatever you do, keep applying for different jobs. Partly, this just gives you more chances and partly this exposes you to what people are looking for and so you can pick and choose skills that might apply to these other jobs.
Best of luck.
1) Stick it out for a couple years, move in-house, and then move to a business role
2) Go back to school to get Degree X and then move on with life and whatever loans you still have
3) Try to apply for something else that you can do immediately that doesn't require a particular degree/prior path (e.g., consulting jobs, foreign service)
Whatever you do, keep applying for different jobs. Partly, this just gives you more chances and partly this exposes you to what people are looking for and so you can pick and choose skills that might apply to these other jobs.
Best of luck.
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Re: Hating Corporate Law - What do I do?
I don't see a problem with your description about your firm and people except trying to cross your coworkers off. I haven't worked at Biglaw but your description is fairly similar to other organizations, probably including non-profit (I imagine, since I haven't worked at non-profit).
I hear this complaints a lot especially from humanitarian daydreamers but as you claim your love for intellectual stuff, start thinking why nations or communities were created in the first place. Millions years ago, ancient people killed each other to survive, then realized that they would be better-off with rules (e.g. not to kill each other) and then bunch of rules and morales and all those stuff were developed. However, turf war is our instinct. When supply beats demand like in a legal world, it gets worse. Wherever you go, the same thing would happen, although the degree may be weaker.
In a business world, since teamwork is important, you may not meet competitive assholes as you do in a law firm. But, based on your self-description as a daydreamer, you won't be happy in a business world, which is all about money. For instance, I love to talk about money, stock markets, how much X is rich. It is not just about materialism or consumption, but learning about how the world works makes me excited. We live in capitalism.
I am writing this because you might want to take into consideration that grass is greener on the other side.
I hear this complaints a lot especially from humanitarian daydreamers but as you claim your love for intellectual stuff, start thinking why nations or communities were created in the first place. Millions years ago, ancient people killed each other to survive, then realized that they would be better-off with rules (e.g. not to kill each other) and then bunch of rules and morales and all those stuff were developed. However, turf war is our instinct. When supply beats demand like in a legal world, it gets worse. Wherever you go, the same thing would happen, although the degree may be weaker.
In a business world, since teamwork is important, you may not meet competitive assholes as you do in a law firm. But, based on your self-description as a daydreamer, you won't be happy in a business world, which is all about money. For instance, I love to talk about money, stock markets, how much X is rich. It is not just about materialism or consumption, but learning about how the world works makes me excited. We live in capitalism.
I am writing this because you might want to take into consideration that grass is greener on the other side.
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Re: Hating Corporate Law - What do I do?
When we start referring to personal intra-office dynamics as "turf wars," all hope is lost.Anonymous User wrote:I don't see a problem with your description about your firm and people except trying to cross your coworkers off. I haven't worked at Biglaw but your description is fairly similar to other organizations, probably including non-profit (I imagine, since I haven't worked at non-profit).
I hear this complaints a lot especially from humanitarian daydreamers but as you claim your love for intellectual stuff, start thinking why nations or communities were created in the first place. Millions years ago, ancient people killed each other to survive, then realized that they would be better-off with rules (e.g. not to kill each other) and then bunch of rules and morales and all those stuff were developed. However, turf war is our instinct. When supply beats demand like in a legal world, it gets worse. Wherever you go, the same thing would happen, although the degree may be weaker.
In a business world, since teamwork is important, you may not meet competitive assholes as you do in a law firm. But, based on your self-description as a daydreamer, you won't be happy in a business world, which is all about money. For instance, I love to talk about money, stock markets, how much X is rich. It is not just about materialism or consumption, but learning about how the world works makes me excited. We live in capitalism.
I am writing this because you might want to take into consideration that grass is greener on the other side.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Tue Jun 28, 2016 4:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Hating Corporate Law - What do I do?
OP - I only started daydreaming once I earned six-figures. For most of my life I was generally nice, but was very competitive and had that intense killer instinct. It's like what Maslow said - most people become vicious when their basic needs or the needs of their loved ones are threatened or are not being met. The more secure somebody feels in terms of their physical needs, the more concerned they become with other people. I've probably had higher peaks and valleys in terms of quality of life relative to most people, but am psychologically wired the same way as most people - no better, no worse.
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