NYT: An Expensive Law Degree, and No Place to Use It Forum

[crumb cake]

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/19/busin ... se-it.html

[GreenEggs]

I just find it amazing that articles like this are still being written and people are still constantly amazed that this is the case

[DELG]

I just find it amazing that articles like this are still being written and people are still constantly amazed that this is the case

Gotta keep saying it until boomers get it. Or die.

[84651846190]

I just find it amazing that articles like this are still being written and people are still constantly amazed that this is the case

Gotta keep saying it until boomers get it. Or die.

God dammit, why won't they die more quickly?

[TLSModBot]

HOW COULD THIS HAVE HAPPENED

[GreenEggs]

HOW COULD THIS HAVE HAPPENED

If anything, the NYT has failed us by not telling us more often

[n1o2c3a4c5h6e7t]

TL;DL: Wizkid, broad-shouldered Jeremy Hahn profits off the backs of unqualified masses.

[jbagelboy]

low

hanging

fruit

[sublime]

low

hanging

fruit

Right.

tldr: Valapraiso is a bad law school and people who took one or two hundred thousand in debt to go there are not in a good position.

They could have blamed Valpo a bit more though.

[john_brown]

The NYT seems to run this story about twice a year. The plot never changes: newly-disillusioned grad of middling law school, long on potential, short on job prospects, weighed down by crippling debt etc. etc.

I sympathize (how could you not?) but we aren't breaking any new ground here. How about a more interesting angle: why not ask some of those professors, in essence, "how do you sleep at night?" They seem more concerned about restructuring and buy-outs than the fact that their students are taking out six-figure loans to fund a near-worthless degree. At what point does taking a job at these schools become an ethical dilemma?

[sublime]

The NYT seems to run this story about twice a year. The plot never changes: newly-disillusioned grad of middling law school, long on potential, short on job prospects, weighed down by crippling debt etc. etc.

I sympathize (how could you not?) but we aren't breaking any new ground here. How about a more interesting angle: why not ask some of those professors, in essence, "how do you sleep at night?" They seem more concerned about restructuring and buy-outs than the fact that their students are taking out six-figure loans to fund a near-worthless degree. At what point does taking a job at these schools become an ethical dilemma?

Fuck that. I'll go be a prof at Valpo and sleep fine.

There's a better case for administration's blame, but it isn't like lawyers generally don't face ethical and moral dilemmas.

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

How about a more interesting angle: why not ask some of those professors, in essence, "how do you sleep at night?"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GO0JaecRWy0

[DELG]

I just find it amazing that articles like this are still being written and people are still constantly amazed that this is the case

Gotta keep saying it until boomers get it. Or die.

God dammit, why won't they die more quickly?

Salted caramel shit was invented to hasten their demise right

[yay]

hard to have sympathy for people who go to bad schools who aren't rich or have some non-idiotic loan-repayment plan. that article just makes the rest of us look bad. nobody cares about that guy's 200K+ loan and shitlaw job in small town. like he literally did it to himself fully aware. Like he saw shit and stepped on it, and he's now crying it smells.

[Anonymous User]

hard to have sympathy for people who go to bad schools who aren't rich or have some non-idiotic loan-repayment plan. that article just makes the rest of us look bad. nobody cares about that guy's 200K+ loan and shitlaw job in small town. like he literally did it to himself fully aware. Like he saw shit and stepped on it, and he's now crying it smells.

This.

[Anonymous User]

Makes T-14 big law bound folks look like assholes to their friends back home, especially when articles like that WSJ article about summer associate events come around .

[nothingtosee]

Strong anon posting here.

How many of the people going to valpo don't have any friends or family who are lawyers? The dominant understanding in America is "doctors and lawyers" are safe and successful professions? Do you think the admissions officers told these people "hey, odds are you'll never work as a lawyer!"

It's sad when people have $200,000 of debt and no job prospects. Full stop.

[star fox]

Strong anon posting here.

How many of the people going to valpo don't have any friends or family who are lawyers? The dominant understanding in America is "doctors and lawyers" are safe and successful professions? Do you think the admissions officers told these people "hey, odds are you'll never work as a lawyer!"

It's sad when people have $200,000 of debt and no job prospects. Full stop.

Did you read the article? The person in it has job prospects and will probably be fine.

[encore1101]

How about a more interesting angle: why not ask some of those professors, in essence, "how do you sleep at night?"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GO0JaecRWy0

Beaten to it. +1

[Anonymous User]

Strong anon posting here.

How many of the people going to valpo don't have any friends or family who are lawyers? The dominant understanding in America is "doctors and lawyers" are safe and successful professions? Do you think the admissions officers told these people "hey, odds are you'll never work as a lawyer!"

It's sad when people have $200,000 of debt and no job prospects. Full stop.

Did you read the article? The person in it has job prospects and will probably be fine.

What I got from the article is that he has job prospects, but none of them will be able to service 200k in debt

[pancakes3]

soloing shouldn't be counted as a job prospect.

[Jordan Catalano]

I have sympathy for younger students fresh out of college who end up in this situation. There are so many professors and pre-law advisers who guide these students towards law without educating themselves on what has happened to the legal industry in the last several years. These students are in a relationship with these professors/advisers that denotes trust. I have less sympathy for the older student who leaves one career and goes into another without proper research, but I think the largest blame should be placed at the feet of law schools who graduate classes every year knowing half of their students will not find bar-passage required jobs. Those schools should be shut down.

[jchiles]

soloing shouldn't be counted as a job prospect.

I don't think it counts as a great job prospect but its a job and it seems to work out for some people.

[October25]

For what it's worth, Leiter has a post listing 6 substantive factual errors in the story, as well as a bunch of misrepresentations.
http://leiterlawschool.typepad.com/leit ... story.html

A quote from Leiter's interview with the student:

"Valpraiso did not mislead me about employment prospects. I had done my research. I knew the job market was competitive going in. I knew what debt I was walking into. I think very few Americans don’t have debt, but for me it was an investment. I saw the debt as an investment in my career, my future, and my family.

Valpraiso gave a guy like me, a non-traditional student a shot at becoming a lawyer. Most law schools say they take a holistic approach, but they don’t really do it. I had to work hard to overcome adversity, and they gave me a shot to go to law school and to succeed. They gave me a shot at something that I wanted to do where most law schools wouldn’t."

This makes me a less sympathetic to their situation, honestly. It really sounds like they're saying "I knew prospects out of this school were crap, but I couldn't get in anywhere else." which, unfortunately, sounds like the rational of a lot of people in these types of articles.

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

For what it's worth, Leiter has a post listing 6 substantive factual errors in the story, as well as a bunch of misrepresentations.
http://leiterlawschool.typepad.com/leit ... story.html

A quote from Leiter's interview with the student:

"Valpraiso did not mislead me about employment prospects. I had done my research. I knew the job market was competitive going in. I knew what debt I was walking into. I think very few Americans don’t have debt, but for me it was an investment. I saw the debt as an investment in my career, my future, and my family.

Valpraiso gave a guy like me, a non-traditional student a shot at becoming a lawyer. Most law schools say they take a holistic approach, but they don’t really do it. I had to work hard to overcome adversity, and they gave me a shot to go to law school and to succeed. They gave me a shot at something that I wanted to do where most law schools wouldn’t."

This makes me a less sympathetic to their situation, honestly. It really sounds like they're saying "I knew prospects out of this school were crap, but I couldn't get in anywhere else." which, unfortunately, sounds like the rational of a lot of people in these types of articles.

Goddamn Leiter is aggressively dumb.

Even at the 25th percentile, toward the bottom, the lifetime present value of a law degree as of the start of law school is around $400,000 (based on around a $20,000 boost to earnings per year)

*spends $200k to earn $400k over 40 years, making 1.7% annually*
*could've thrown a dart at the S&P, made 5%, and never had to put up with legal bullshit*
*is financial wizard*