Is it Unethical to Be a Law Professor at a Very Low Ranked Law School? Forum
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Is it Unethical to Be a Law Professor at a Very Low Ranked Law School?
My friends and I have recently been discussing whether it is ethical to be a law professor at a very low ranked law school. This quandary comes from two sources. First, these schools generally have absolutely atrocious employment prospects. As such, law professors are directly taking part in a system that saddles students with large quantities of debt while giving most of them no method of utilizing their law degree to pay off that debt upon graduation. Second, these schools have incredibly low admission standards in terms of grades and test scores, which are used as surrogates for assessing student ability. Thus, law professors are also directly involved with the bestowal of law degrees and the churning out of attorneys who perhaps shouldn't be practicing law to begin with and will not provide good or even adequate service to their clients. I believe these concerns apply to fields outside of law as well, but law school seems like a very good example through which to explore them. Would love to hear others' thoughts about this.
Last edited by hiversitize on Thu Jun 09, 2016 2:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The Ethics of Being a Law Professor at a Very Low Ranked Law School
It's unethical to be a law professor at a high ranked school and get paid half a mil funded by students tuition.
Last edited by GreenEggs on Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- zot1
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Re: The Ethics of Being a Law Professor at a Very Low Ranked Law School
There's no winning in this situation.
Note to self: become a professor at high ranked school.
Note to self: become a professor at high ranked school.
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Re: The Ethics of Being a Law Professor at a Very Low Ranked Law School
This brings up the issue of being heavily compensated by student debt and taxpayer dollars, but it seems as though at a highly ranked school the professor is at least part of a system that is providing something in return for students' investments, and the students are in turn being put in positions where they are capable of paying off their loans from taxpayers. That isn't the case with very low ranked schools.DCfilterDC wrote:It's unethical to be a law professor at a high ranked school and get paid half a mil funded by students tuition.
- Monochromatic Oeuvre
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Re: The Ethics of Being a Law Professor at a Very Low Ranked Law School
Firms hire students from good schools because they come in already capable; the professors don't provide any value-add financially.hiversitize wrote:This brings up the issue of being heavily compensated by student debt and taxpayer dollars, but it seems as though at a highly ranked school the professor is at least part of a system that is providing something in return for students' investments, and the students are in turn being put in positions where they are capable of paying off their loans from taxpayers. That isn't the case with very low ranked schools.DCfilterDC wrote:It's unethical to be a law professor at a high ranked school and get paid half a mil funded by students tuition.
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Re: The Ethics of Being a Law Professor at a Very Low Ranked Law School
Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:Firms hire students from good schools because they come in already capable; the professors don't provide any value-add financially.hiversitize wrote:This brings up the issue of being heavily compensated by student debt and taxpayer dollars, but it seems as though at a highly ranked school the professor is at least part of a system that is providing something in return for students' investments, and the students are in turn being put in positions where they are capable of paying off their loans from taxpayers. That isn't the case with very low ranked schools.DCfilterDC wrote:It's unethical to be a law professor at a high ranked school and get paid half a mil funded by students tuition.
Obviously you attended a school that failed to teach you to think like a
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Re: Is it Unethical to Be a Law Professor at a Very Low Ranked Law School?
I think choosing to teach at Arizona State is a fine choice as long as you cop a beej or two from the locals
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Re: The Ethics of Being a Law Professor at a Very Low Ranked Law School
It might be because I was, and still am, an idiot, but most of my law professors have made me smarter than I was when I first entered law school. Part of it might have been the process, but at least for me, the teaching and education wasn't ineffective.Paul Campos wrote:Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:Firms hire students from good schools because they come in already capable; the professors don't provide any value-add financially.hiversitize wrote:This brings up the issue of being heavily compensated by student debt and taxpayer dollars, but it seems as though at a highly ranked school the professor is at least part of a system that is providing something in return for students' investments, and the students are in turn being put in positions where they are capable of paying off their loans from taxpayers. That isn't the case with very low ranked schools.DCfilterDC wrote:It's unethical to be a law professor at a high ranked school and get paid half a mil funded by students tuition.
Obviously you attended a school that failed to teach you to think like alaw professorlawyer.
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Re: The Ethics of Being a Law Professor at a Very Low Ranked Law School
I mean, you can't put a price of studying under the sage tutelage of THE Brian Leiter.Paul Campos wrote:Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:Firms hire students from good schools because they come in already capable; the professors don't provide any value-add financially.hiversitize wrote:This brings up the issue of being heavily compensated by student debt and taxpayer dollars, but it seems as though at a highly ranked school the professor is at least part of a system that is providing something in return for students' investments, and the students are in turn being put in positions where they are capable of paying off their loans from taxpayers. That isn't the case with very low ranked schools.DCfilterDC wrote:It's unethical to be a law professor at a high ranked school and get paid half a mil funded by students tuition.
Obviously you attended a school that failed to teach you to think like alaw professorlawyer.
- Monochromatic Oeuvre
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Re: The Ethics of Being a Law Professor at a Very Low Ranked Law School
Like, $200k smarter, or like, I-don't-stick-my-fork-in-the-wall-socket-anymore smarter?PeanutsNJam wrote:It might be because I was, and still am, an idiot, but most of my law professors have made me smarter than I was when I first entered law school. Part of it might have been the process, but at least for me, the teaching and education wasn't ineffective.Paul Campos wrote:Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:Firms hire students from good schools because they come in already capable; the professors don't provide any value-add financially.hiversitize wrote:This brings up the issue of being heavily compensated by student debt and taxpayer dollars, but it seems as though at a highly ranked school the professor is at least part of a system that is providing something in return for students' investments, and the students are in turn being put in positions where they are capable of paying off their loans from taxpayers. That isn't the case with very low ranked schools.DCfilterDC wrote:It's unethical to be a law professor at a high ranked school and get paid half a mil funded by students tuition.
Obviously you attended a school that failed to teach you to think like alaw professorlawyer.
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Re: The Ethics of Being a Law Professor at a Very Low Ranked Law School
Certainly not $200k smarter, which is why nobody should go to any law school without substabtial scholarship/financial aid or at least family support. I do want to respond substantively by saying that law professors do add value though. At least, the ones who are good teachers, which is not always synonymous with ~genius legal scholar~.Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:Like, $200k smarter, or like, I-don't-stick-my-fork-in-the-wall-socket-anymore smarter?PeanutsNJam wrote:It might be because I was, and still am, an idiot, but most of my law professors have made me smarter than I was when I first entered law school. Part of it might have been the process, but at least for me, the teaching and education wasn't ineffective.Paul Campos wrote:Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:Firms hire students from good schools because they come in already capable; the professors don't provide any value-add financially.hiversitize wrote:This brings up the issue of being heavily compensated by student debt and taxpayer dollars, but it seems as though at a highly ranked school the professor is at least part of a system that is providing something in return for students' investments, and the students are in turn being put in positions where they are capable of paying off their loans from taxpayers. That isn't the case with very low ranked schools.DCfilterDC wrote:It's unethical to be a law professor at a high ranked school and get paid half a mil funded by students tuition.
Obviously you attended a school that failed to teach you to think like alaw professorlawyer.
You do have to have an open mind though. If you think you know everything, then law school will not do anything for you. I used to be lazy and dumb, but now I appreciate attention to detail and nuance so in that way I'm less dumb. I'm wrong a lot in law school and I learned how to learn from being wrong. I learned how to adequately explain and express things without making conclusory statements. In terms of practical skills, I'm a much better reader and writer. Of course, I was an abysmal reader and writer coming in so that's not saying much.
None of this is worth $200k, but it's not a waste of 3 years if you don't let it be.
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Re: Is it Unethical to Be a Law Professor at a Very Low Ranked Law School?
I've never stuck my fork in a socket so with no baseline with which to compare we have to accept the null hypothesis.
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Re: Is it Unethical to Be a Law Professor at a Very Low Ranked Law School?
many excellent lawyers come from bottom of the barrel or even unaccredited colleges
If someone is dumb enough to overpay that's on them and is no different than dumbs paying $200k for an english degree at random Liberal Arts College or $100k for a year of some made up trade program at For Profit U. Blame the govt. guaranteeing loans for that
If someone is dumb enough to overpay that's on them and is no different than dumbs paying $200k for an english degree at random Liberal Arts College or $100k for a year of some made up trade program at For Profit U. Blame the govt. guaranteeing loans for that
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Re: Is it Unethical to Be a Law Professor at a Very Low Ranked Law School?
nerdpancakes3 wrote:I've never stuck my fork in a socket so with no baseline with which to compare we have to accept the null hypothesis.
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Re: Is it Unethical to Be a Law Professor at a Very Low Ranked Law School?
ballouttacontrol wrote:many excellent lawyers come from bottom of the barrel or even unaccredited colleges
If someone is dumb enough to overpay that's on them and is no different than dumbs paying $200k for an english degree at random Liberal Arts College or $100k for a year of some made up trade program at For Profit U. Blame the govt. guaranteeing loans for that
I blame the government for covering the full cost of grad degrees for people with sub 3.0 UG GPAs and a 143 on the LSAT. This is the problem. These schools wouldn't exist if it weren't for the government footing the bill. Make people pay for their degree or perform well enough to get scholarships. The government is ruining higher education by allowing people to go into this kind of debt for shiTTTTy schools and dismal employment prospects.
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Re: The Ethics of Being a Law Professor at a Very Low Ranked Law School
Just trying to see if I'm following based on the discussion topic. Are you arguing that a law professor can make up for their ethical culpability in teaching at a low ranked school that offers abysmal career prospects and sends unqualified attorneys out into the world by putting max effort into their job and attempting to mitigate at least the latter situation?PeanutsNJam wrote:Certainly not $200k smarter, which is why nobody should go to any law school without substabtial scholarship/financial aid or at least family support. I do want to respond substantively by saying that law professors do add value though. At least, the ones who are good teachers, which is not always synonymous with ~genius legal scholar~.Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:Like, $200k smarter, or like, I-don't-stick-my-fork-in-the-wall-socket-anymore smarter?PeanutsNJam wrote:It might be because I was, and still am, an idiot, but most of my law professors have made me smarter than I was when I first entered law school. Part of it might have been the process, but at least for me, the teaching and education wasn't ineffective.Paul Campos wrote:Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:Firms hire students from good schools because they come in already capable; the professors don't provide any value-add financially.hiversitize wrote:This brings up the issue of being heavily compensated by student debt and taxpayer dollars, but it seems as though at a highly ranked school the professor is at least part of a system that is providing something in return for students' investments, and the students are in turn being put in positions where they are capable of paying off their loans from taxpayers. That isn't the case with very low ranked schools.DCfilterDC wrote:It's unethical to be a law professor at a high ranked school and get paid half a mil funded by students tuition.
Obviously you attended a school that failed to teach you to think like alaw professorlawyer.
You do have to have an open mind though. If you think you know everything, then law school will not do anything for you. I used to be lazy and dumb, but now I appreciate attention to detail and nuance so in that way I'm less dumb. I'm wrong a lot in law school and I learned how to learn from being wrong. I learned how to adequately explain and express things without making conclusory statements. In terms of practical skills, I'm a much better reader and writer. Of course, I was an abysmal reader and writer coming in so that's not saying much.
None of this is worth $200k, but it's not a waste of 3 years if you don't let it be.
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Re: Is it Unethical to Be a Law Professor at a Very Low Ranked Law School?
I think the gov. definitely has a role here. It should not be so easy to get funding for a degree that offers the person taking the loan almost no reasonable avenue for paying it back using the degree that was earned. I think the number of law schools and class sizes should be curtailed and federal education loans, at least for legal studies, should not be so liberally dispensed. The gov.'s culpability, however, doesn't seems to alleviate that of law professors at low ranked schools who are also part of systems that saddle individuals with debt, cost taxpayers, and produce a good amount of lawyers who probly shouldn't be lawyers.Anonymous User wrote:ballouttacontrol wrote:many excellent lawyers come from bottom of the barrel or even unaccredited colleges
If someone is dumb enough to overpay that's on them and is no different than dumbs paying $200k for an english degree at random Liberal Arts College or $100k for a year of some made up trade program at For Profit U. Blame the govt. guaranteeing loans for that
I blame the government for covering the full cost of grad degrees for people with sub 3.0 UG GPAs and a 143 on the LSAT. This is the problem. These schools wouldn't exist if it weren't for the government footing the bill. Make people pay for their degree or perform well enough to get scholarships. The government is ruining higher education by allowing people to go into this kind of debt for shiTTTTy schools and dismal employment prospects.
Last edited by hiversitize on Fri Jun 10, 2016 8:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is it Unethical to Be a Law Professor at a Very Low Ranked Law School?
Certainly, but most who come from bottom-of-the-barrel and unaccredited schools are far from excellent, and they have debt that they likely can't pay off, or will struggle mightily to pay off, using their law degree. This is just a matter of numbers. While there are always outliers, they do not validate the system.ballouttacontrol wrote:many excellent lawyers come from bottom of the barrel or even unaccredited colleges
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Re: Is it Unethical to Be a Law Professor at a Very Low Ranked Law School?
Counterpoing: The "qualifications" threshold might be useful for the legal market where supply outstrips demand but what about the medical field where it's essentially at equilibrium? Requiring an "industry-by-industry" examination of what applicants are subject to a threshold and then the bigger problem of determining what that threshold should be - is probably outside the capabilities of government.
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Re: The Ethics of Being a Law Professor at a Very Low Ranked Law School
I'm just pushing back on the "law school teaches you nothing and provides no added value" half-jokehiversitize wrote:Just trying to see if I'm following based on the discussion topic. Are you arguing that a law professor can make up for their ethical culpability in teaching at a low ranked school that offers abysmal career prospects and sends unqualified attorneys out into the world by putting max effort into their job and attempting to mitigate at least the latter situation?
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Re: Is it Unethical to Be a Law Professor at a Very Low Ranked Law School?
Exactly - every TTT graduates a couple people a year who will have long successful careers as attorneys. But that doesn't justify that the entire model is based on the 99% of the class who will not, and who are charged large amounts of money that the school knows they are borrowing on a non-dischargable basis. It is a monumental injustice. It is unfathomable to me why state attorneys general are not all over this, and other academic scams like it. My best guess is that it's because the differences between legitimate and exploitative academia is not always articulable.hiversitize wrote:Certainly, but most who come from bottom-of-the-barrel and unaccredited schools are far from excellent, and they have debt that they likely can't pay off, or will struggle mightily to pay off, using their law degree. This is just a matter of numbers. While there are always outliers, they do not validate the system.ballouttacontrol wrote:many excellent lawyers come from bottom of the barrel or even unaccredited colleges
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Re: Is it Unethical to Be a Law Professor at a Very Low Ranked Law School?
I also think a lot of the problem has to do w/ entering students of TTTTTTT schools. A lot of people at my school (100-115 rank) are seemingly totally ignorant of the job prospects. I've spoken to a few, who have asked what classes I signed up for (which I respond "im transferring' and that starts the convo) and then the employment-ignorance becomes evident.
I dont think people at my school (majority anyways) have even opened the ABA employment stats. They think they can just go work at a big firm with median grades. Hearing this makes me just think ''they have no idea''.
So, some fault is definitely on the students for being ignorant about the market and their school's placement, is what I'm saying.
I dont think people at my school (majority anyways) have even opened the ABA employment stats. They think they can just go work at a big firm with median grades. Hearing this makes me just think ''they have no idea''.
So, some fault is definitely on the students for being ignorant about the market and their school's placement, is what I'm saying.
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Re: Is it Unethical to Be a Law Professor at a Very Low Ranked Law School?
Also with PAYE now, a large debt load doesn't really even count as debt. There's no reason to pay it off if your salary is not high, so taking on high education debt is basically just agreeing to a small wage garment for 25 years. Not so different from Harvard or Yale or whoever program where instead of up front tuition you pay 1% of lifetime earnings.
Low ranked schools pump out graduates that are frankly more practice prepared than the top law schools. They are more prepared to deal with crazies that need help with their slip n fall, file standard bankruptcy forms, etc etc. Only difference is the govt/lib voters feel the burden of providing this should fall on the tax payers. Hate the game not the player
Low ranked schools pump out graduates that are frankly more practice prepared than the top law schools. They are more prepared to deal with crazies that need help with their slip n fall, file standard bankruptcy forms, etc etc. Only difference is the govt/lib voters feel the burden of providing this should fall on the tax payers. Hate the game not the player
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