Dealing with anxiety/stress in Biglaw Forum

[Nynaeve]

How do you guys cope with the anxiety / stress of Biglaw? Most nights each week, I'll sleep maybe 2.5-4 hours, not even actively thinking about work but still up tossing and turning. The gruff seniors/partners, nebulous projects, pseudo-urgency of everything, and lack of predictability are killing me. I'm in my second month in lit in nyc, came off a clerkship, and want to stick it out for about 10 more months and then do govt, but even with that in mind this is tough.

[Magic Hat]

Laphroaig 10 year

[Big Shrimpin]

one of the keys to surviving is setting boundaries

Only way I made it 4 years and going strong is to set boundaries, you do this by:

1. providing ONLY top-quality work product in a timely manner...this is key because it gives you leverage, as more senior people place a higher value on these kinds of juniors...i know I sure do

2. within reason, making time for yourself every day...this could be a walk outside sans phone, gym in morning or night, or whatever

3. at night, check your phone until midnight or so then go to bed and put the fucking phone in another room...unless you're closing a deal or have some huge depo/hearing next day, literally nothing is so important that you need to wake up in middle of night to deal with

if you do good work and are a team player, then you're doing your job...don't let psychotic/sociopathic personalities project themselves upon you...this is key...and if thats unavoidable, then lateral the fuck outta there...i have worked in a few biglaw firms as an associate, and I can say with conviction that some places are FAR different than others despite doing the same practice

best of luck dooder!

(mike drop)

[Big Shrimpin]

Laphroaig 10 year

this and/or recreational drugs but use sparingly and in moderation

[Anonymous User]

Was wondering this and similar things last night and was looking for recent posts. Adding to it... how do people stay organized? How do people stay grinding? My problem is that in every job I have, I will work really well for a while (like a month or two) and then just suddenly hit a wall where I can't stop getting distracted and can't make myself work. And sometimes I just don't know where to begin or how to organize my thoughts.

Related, I have ADD (clearly) and take adderall; I'm starting to think my dosage may not be enough. I haven't started my biglaw job yet but I'm a bit worried. Has anybody here switched from adderall to adderall XR? Maybe I should do that before starting.

Currently clerking (appellate) so I only really have one task to do at any given time and just have time to myself for days. How do I learn to juggle 100 things at a time? I have never had to be that organized and I guess I need to start using a calendar.

Sorry if this is hijacking but I mean for it to be related to the stress question as well.

[Big Shrimpin]

also add'er but no meds so no advice there

keep a list of shit to do on a sticky right next to your keyboard

on said list write task, follow-ups and related notes

if ur good at outlook there are tons of helpful tools in there too

you're going to forget a thing here or there, but keeping a list and referring to it daily is a tremendous help

[kcdc1]

one of the keys to surviving is setting boundaries

Only way I made it 4 years and going strong is to set boundaries, you do this by:

1. providing ONLY top-quality work product in a timely manner...this is key because it gives you leverage, as more senior people place a higher value on these kinds of juniors...i know I sure do

2. within reason, making time for yourself every day...this could be a walk outside sans phone, gym in morning or night, or whatever

3. at night, check your phone until midnight or so then go to bed and put the fucking phone in another room...unless you're closing a deal or have some huge depo/hearing next day, literally nothing is so important that you need to wake up in middle of night to deal with

if you do good work and are a team player, then you're doing your job...don't let psychotic/sociopathic personalities project themselves upon you...this is key...and if thats unavoidable, then lateral the fuck outta there...i have worked in a few biglaw firms as an associate, and I can say with conviction that some places are FAR different than others despite doing the same practice

best of luck dooder!

(mike drop)

These "boundaries" are depressing. Would your job be acceptable to you if you had a family?

[pancakes3]

Was wondering this and similar things last night and was looking for recent posts. Adding to it... how do people stay organized? How do people stay grinding? My problem is that in every job I have, I will work really well for a while (like a month or two) and then just suddenly hit a wall where I can't stop getting distracted and can't make myself work. And sometimes I just don't know where to begin or how to organize my thoughts.

Related, I have ADD (clearly) and take adderall; I'm starting to think my dosage may not be enough. I haven't started my biglaw job yet but I'm a bit worried. Has anybody here switched from adderall to adderall XR? Maybe I should do that before starting.

Currently clerking (appellate) so I only really have one task to do at any given time and just have time to myself for days. How do I learn to juggle 100 things at a time? I have never had to be that organized and I guess I need to start using a calendar.

Sorry if this is hijacking but I mean for it to be related to the stress question as well.

Nothing to add - I'm just in awe that you made it to an appellate clerkship without having a calendar. Must be nice being a natural genius.

[Anonymous User]

also add'er but no meds so no advice there

keep a list of shit to do on a sticky right next to your keyboard

on said list write task, follow-ups and related notes

if ur good at outlook there are tons of helpful tools in there too

you're going to forget a thing here or there, but keeping a list and referring to it daily is a tremendous help

Nice, that's really helpful. I think a big part of what I need is just that: I need to write down what I have to do, visualize it, and then stick to it.

Anybody have experience with hitting a wall? I just suddenly stop working for weeks at a time sometimes and it's ridiculous and makes me hate myself. I even did it (albeit only for a couple days or a week) during my SA and was so terrified. It's like I suddenly can't stop checking the internet or doing other things. Even in this job my Judge has clucked at me a couple times because she just happens to walk in when I'm on some webpage (lol I was reading a NYT article once and she thought it was facebook). I absolutely can't let this happen anymore and I don't know how.

[Anonymous User]

Nothing to add - I'm just in awe that you made it to an appellate clerkship without having a calendar. Must be nice being a natural genius.

Sorry, didn't mean for that to be a humblebrag or anything. I was a really good student in law school but I didn't have to grind every single day so it wasn't as bad. And I always used a day planner notebook which I guess is a calendar but I've only ever used it for school/classes which is very different. Also I honestly have no idea how I got this job or my biglaw job and I feel like I'm punching well above my weight. Absolutely not a genius here.

I think organization for law practice is sorta like it was for finals (not to sound incredibly naïve), which I was good at, but it's all the time instead of a month. And that's the hard part.

[Anonymous User]

Anybody have experience with hitting a wall? I just suddenly stop working for weeks at a time sometimes and it's ridiculous and makes me hate myself. I even did it (albeit only for a couple days or a week) during my SA and was so terrified. It's like I suddenly can't stop checking the internet or doing other things. Even in this job my Judge has clucked at me a couple times because she just happens to walk in when I'm on some webpage (lol I was reading a NYT article once and she thought it was facebook). I absolutely can't let this happen anymore and I don't know how.

Yes, absolutely. My experience sounds 100% like yours - great at job for a couple months, then hit a wall and spend all day surfing web while trying to get going again.

Here are some techniques that have helped:

- Find a way to make work genuinely interesting, or at least something that motivates you in your work. In my case, I'm super-motivated by competition. I utterly fail in paper-pushing tasks, but I can crank out work around the clock if it means winning (and the other side losing).

- Post-it on the monitor with the next few days of to-do's (crossing out as I finish). For boring work that I need to grind through, I tie this into the competition thing by trying to do more and better work than others.

- Interim deadlines. "I will be done with this section of the draft before I go to lunch." I like to eat.

- Set work / play boundaries early on and keep to them. Set a rule that your office computer is for work only - not even news. If you want to check the news, go to the break room and have a coffee while you read your phone. This is a bit of psychological warfare I wage against my ADD brain. If I'm using a computer on which I allow non-work activities, I find that I inevitably interrupt myself and take frequent breaks to surf the web, etc, and the breaks gradually take over more and more of my day. If I set a firm rule that the office computer is for work only, I work all day. To maintain this rule, it helps to stay a little paranoid -- keep the door open, believe that your employer monitors your internet activity, keep your next interim deadline close enough that you have to hurry to meet it, etc. Also, wearing a suit helps me.

- Wake up and get to work early. For whatever reason, I'm less prone to distraction in the morning. YMMV.

- Have kids that depend on your successful career for food and shelter.

[Big Shrimpin]

one of the keys to surviving is setting boundaries

Only way I made it 4 years and going strong is to set boundaries, you do this by:

1. providing ONLY top-quality work product in a timely manner...this is key because it gives you leverage, as more senior people place a higher value on these kinds of juniors...i know I sure do

2. within reason, making time for yourself every day...this could be a walk outside sans phone, gym in morning or night, or whatever

3. at night, check your phone until midnight or so then go to bed and put the fucking phone in another room...unless you're closing a deal or have some huge depo/hearing next day, literally nothing is so important that you need to wake up in middle of night to deal with

if you do good work and are a team player, then you're doing your job...don't let psychotic/sociopathic personalities project themselves upon you...this is key...and if thats unavoidable, then lateral the fuck outta there...i have worked in a few biglaw firms as an associate, and I can say with conviction that some places are FAR different than others despite doing the same practice

best of luck dooder!

(mike drop)

These "boundaries" are depressing. Would your job be acceptable to you if you had a family?

it's biglaw buddy, we're highly paid because, to a certain extent, we choose work over personal life

this is not to say it's an all or nothing proposition...i like my time out of work more than my time at work (work to live, not live to work), but i also like the $$$ and the doors this career is opening, so i deal with it...my partner is on board with this and understands, so things work

[20160810]

one of the keys to surviving is setting boundaries

Only way I made it 4 years and going strong is to set boundaries, you do this by:

1. providing ONLY top-quality work product in a timely manner...this is key because it gives you leverage, as more senior people place a higher value on these kinds of juniors...i know I sure do

2. within reason, making time for yourself every day...this could be a walk outside sans phone, gym in morning or night, or whatever

3. at night, check your phone until midnight or so then go to bed and put the fucking phone in another room...unless you're closing a deal or have some huge depo/hearing next day, literally nothing is so important that you need to wake up in middle of night to deal with

if you do good work and are a team player, then you're doing your job...don't let psychotic/sociopathic personalities project themselves upon you...this is key...and if thats unavoidable, then lateral the fuck outta there...i have worked in a few biglaw firms as an associate, and I can say with conviction that some places are FAR different than others despite doing the same practice

best of luck dooder!

(mike drop)

This is underrated as a stress reduction tactic. If you are immaculate in your research, write well, proofread everything, and generally turn in top-shelf work product, then you're going to get the benefit of the doubt when you inevitably make mistakes. But if things look sloppy, you're always going to be on edge, because you know that a mistake could be the end of the partner relationship whereby you get your life-giving billable projects. A little bit of extra work and diligence actually reduces stress.

[Big Shrimpin]

one of the keys to surviving is setting boundaries

Only way I made it 4 years and going strong is to set boundaries, you do this by:

1. providing ONLY top-quality work product in a timely manner...this is key because it gives you leverage, as more senior people place a higher value on these kinds of juniors...i know I sure do

2. within reason, making time for yourself every day...this could be a walk outside sans phone, gym in morning or night, or whatever

3. at night, check your phone until midnight or so then go to bed and put the fucking phone in another room...unless you're closing a deal or have some huge depo/hearing next day, literally nothing is so important that you need to wake up in middle of night to deal with

if you do good work and are a team player, then you're doing your job...don't let psychotic/sociopathic personalities project themselves upon you...this is key...and if thats unavoidable, then lateral the fuck outta there...i have worked in a few biglaw firms as an associate, and I can say with conviction that some places are FAR different than others despite doing the same practice

best of luck dooder!

(mike drop)

This is underrated as a stress reduction tactic. If you are immaculate in your research, write well, proofread everything, and generally turn in top-shelf work product, then you're going to get the benefit of the doubt when you inevitably make mistakes. But if things look sloppy, you're always going to be on edge, because you know that a mistake could be the end of the partner relationship whereby you get your life-giving billable projects. A little bit of extra work and diligence actually reduces stress.

knowing that you're shit is solid and knowing that others know that def provides peace of mind

but it doesn't happen overnight, you have to perfect it

and skills are transferable too...I went from lit to corp/regulatory and the same skills i learned map over and didn't take me too long to get on top of the learning curve

[Anonymous User]

Make your peace with being fired and accept a lot of what happens to you will be out of your control. I never get why people tell you to just do better work, as if people show up in Biglaw and deliberately do shitty work or just never really try. The truth is if you feel this level of stress already you probably won't make partner, and so they will fire you at some point. Do what you can do and when your time comes your time comes. Stressing about it really won't help you, if anything will drive you to quit before they fire you. It's a hard job and one designed to drive a certain number of people out, so there is no shame in being a mediocre or bad associate.

[dailygrind]

and skills are transferable too...I went from lit to corp/regulatory and the same skills i learned map over and didn't take me too long to get on top of the learning curve

Seriously? What year of lit were you when you made the switch?

[20160810]

and skills are transferable too...I went from lit to corp/regulatory and the same skills i learned map over and didn't take me too long to get on top of the learning curve

Seriously? What year of lit were you when you made the switch?

I'm still fairly certain that corporate work is an elaborate flame. I literally don't have the foggiest idea what corporate attorneys do.

[dailygrind]

and skills are transferable too...I went from lit to corp/regulatory and the same skills i learned map over and didn't take me too long to get on top of the learning curve

Seriously? What year of lit were you when you made the switch?

I'm still fairly certain that corporate work is an elaborate flame. I literally don't have the foggiest idea what corporate attorneys do.

I dunno. I mostly do capital markets work, which requires knowledge of a large body of rules/regulations, so it's not entirely BS. The guys I know who do work which requires less 'legal' knowledge still do work which needs a lot of market knowledge/experience.

[Anonymous User]

Make your peace with being fired and accept a lot of what happens to you will be out of your control. I never get why people tell you to just do better work, as if people show up in Biglaw and deliberately do shitty work or just never really try. The truth is if you feel this level of stress already you probably won't make partner, and so they will fire you at some point. Do what you can do and when your time comes your time comes. Stressing about it really won't help you, if anything will drive you to quit before they fire you. It's a hard job and one designed to drive a certain number of people out, so there is no shame in being a mediocre or bad associate.

first year biglaw. I've been trying to remind myself of this mentality frequently - accept what happens to me. If I mess something up and partner yells at me, accept it. The worst that can happen is a partner yells at me and then fires me. I don't have a family to support and I believe I could make things work. That's the logical conclusion of accepting things (for me at least). I try not to stress about it but I am still overcome by anxiety most days and think about my next job every day (trying to adjust my thinking on this but it's hard).

[eastcoast_iub]

Make your peace with being fired and accept a lot of what happens to you will be out of your control. I never get why people tell you to just do better work, as if people show up in Biglaw and deliberately do shitty work or just never really try. The truth is if you feel this level of stress already you probably won't make partner, and so they will fire you at some point. Do what you can do and when your time comes your time comes. Stressing about it really won't help you, if anything will drive you to quit before they fire you. It's a hard job and one designed to drive a certain number of people out, so there is no shame in being a mediocre or bad associate.

first year biglaw. I've been trying to remind myself of this mentality frequently - accept what happens to me. If I mess something up and partner yells at me, accept it. The worst that can happen is a partner yells at me and then fires me. I don't have a family to support and I believe I could make things work. That's the logical conclusion of accepting things (for me at least). I try not to stress about it but I am still overcome by anxiety most days and think about my next job every day (trying to adjust my thinking on this but it's hard).

PM me.

[20160810]

Also I realize this is hardly an easy feat for people with $200,000 in debt, but pay that shit down as fast as you possibly can instead of buying consumer crap you don't need. Treat your debt like a house-on-fire, can't-feel-my-nuts-level emergency. Throw every single penny you can at it and kill it as soon as you possibly can. Because as soon as it's gone (or, more realistically, as soon as it's to a low enough level that you could pay it off handily on a lower salary) you're going to feel free. You can keep doing biglaw or not, as you see fit. If you get fired, you're not stuck in debt slavery, you're just looking for a new gig and hopefully living on some savings.

[Anonymous User]

Also I realize this is hardly an easy feat for people with $200,000 in debt, but pay that shit down as fast as you possibly can instead of buying consumer crap you don't need. Treat your debt like a house-on-fire, can't-feel-my-nuts-level emergency. Throw every single penny you can at it and kill it as soon as you possibly can. Because as soon as it's gone (or, more realistically, as soon as it's to a low enough level that you could pay it off handily on a lower salary) you're going to feel free. You can keep doing biglaw or not, as you see fit. If you get fired, you're not stuck in debt slavery, you're just looking for a new gig and hopefully living on some savings.

Not sure this makes sense for everyone given PAYE and the cost of law school today. Even on the new raised salaries, how many years would it take to pay off the full COA of Columbia? Clinton also has to be the favorite in the election, and if she has her way it's possible that there will be federal refinancing options at much lower rates. PAYE caps your repayment at 10% so regardless of circumstances or emergencies you should be able to make minimum payments on the loans.

[20160810]

I know a few bad asses who graduated with me in 2012 and have already paid off loans despite SF COL. It can be done.

[Anonymous User]

You could always say fuck it. I've been blackballed since like 2 months in for making a mistake. It's not Soviet Russia. They won't take you out back and shoot you if you make a mistake. The worst thing that can happen is you'll get blackballed. The anxiety/stress is overblown because the best case scenario isn't that great and the worst case isn't that terrible.

[Anonymous User]

I know a few bad asses who graduated with me in 2012 and have already paid off loans despite SF COL. It can be done.

I don't think that's the reality for many people anymore. Columbia COA is 88k. That's already 240 before the interest. The math will never work on that if you are making 180k in a high tax high col place like NY or SF. So it's already going to take at least 4, likely 5 even if very disciplined. That's longer than the shelf-life of many associates and I think there are many people who would prefer to exit Biglaw with some cash and some debt, as opposed to zero for both. With PAYE, there is no chance you will go bankrupt, and all signs indicate borrowers will get further breaks and benefits.

Not saying you will ever come out ahead in terms of raw dollars, but with the possibility of a catastrophic downside removed, I think it can make sense to take your time. If you slow down and get a lower paying job you can really come out ahead by leaving with significant assets, and debt that is capped at 10% of income and will be forgiven. On the other hand, if you continue making great money, then you will lose a few dozen grand on interest over the years.

Maybe I'm recklessly chill but life is short and you only have your youth once. To the extent you expect to have a good career and continue making good money, I think 10k-50k extra in interest is a small price to pay to enjoy what should be some of the best years of your life. If you don't end up making good money...well you really shouldn't be spending hard earned income on debt that will eventually be forgiven. I'm not sure the best way to get rid of your loans is always to pay them down as soon as possible.