Northwestern OCI 2016 Forum

[Anonymous User]

Grades have finally come in. Time to freak out and discuss OCI. Share questions, bid lists, and any tips.

[Anonymous User]

How detrimental is a significant GPA drop from first semester to second?

[Cobretti]

How detrimental is a significant GPA drop from first semester to second?

your cumulative GPA is what matters.

[star fox]

How detrimental is a significant GPA drop from first semester to second?

Be prepared to discuss if it comes up

[Anonymous User]

What kind of GPA do we need to feel relatively comfortable in getting CBs at top-tier Chicago firms (Kirkland, Sidley, Latham, Skadden, any others?). The GPA CB spreadsheets I've seen seem to suggest 3.8ish but wasn't sure if that's skewed for one reason or another.

[star fox]

What kind of GPA do we need to feel relatively comfortable in getting CBs at top-tier Chicago firms (Kirkland, Sidley, Latham, Skadden, any others?). The GPA CB spreadsheets I've seen seem to suggest 3.8ish but wasn't sure if that's skewed for one reason or another.

There is no GPA that is a guarantee for any particular firm, you cannot change your GPA at this point, so focus on learning what practice areas you are interested in and articulating as such and how that would fit into those firms you named. Once the bidlist stuff comes out people can help you craft one that makes the most sense for you.

[Anonymous User]

How detrimental is a significant GPA drop from first semester to second?

How significant? And how low is your spring GPA? It probably depends on that. My fall GPA was great, and my spring GPA was pretty good but 0.2-0.25 lower than the fall one. Not a single person asked about it. So I agree with Cobretti, but I also agree with star fox that you should be prepared to discuss the drop if it comes up.

[milkisforbabies]

How detrimental is a significant GPA drop from first semester to second?

How significant? And how low is your spring GPA? It probably depends on that. My fall GPA was great, and my spring GPA was pretty good but 0.2-0.25 lower than the fall one. Not a single person asked about it. So I agree with Cobretti, but I also agree with star fox that you should be prepared to discuss the drop if it comes up.

Yeah, you're likely fine even if it's a larger drop. I think my second semester 1L grades were almost .4 lower than my fall ones. Was not asked a single question about it. Cumulative seems like it's really what matters. Obviously still good to have some stock response ready, just in case.

[onionz]

I figured this post is likely to get the most eyes from rising 2Ls: if you did well or know someone who did well (like 3.9x), tell them to look into transferring. They can PM for more details, but you can get significant scholarship money from NU leveraging an acceptance from a YHS, and even money from lower down the t-14.

[Anonymous User]

Just general advice from a 2L:

- If you're in one of the cities where you're planning to do OCI, use this summer to meet attorneys (coffee, firm networking events etc.) and learn more about what practice areas sound interesting to you. Attorney contacts at firms are absolutely helpful during OCI (assuming you make a good impression), so you can knock out networking, learning about firms/practice areas, and prepping yourself for interviews all at once. I know a number of 2Ls who had CBs and offers pre-OCI simply through networking and following up with attorneys they met. In terms of practice areas, at the very least, you should have a decent idea of whether you're interested in transactional and/or litigation work (though leaning towards one of them is preferable IMO) and why by the time OCI rolls around.

- Learn about the legal market in the cities you're targeting for OCI. Every market has its own quirks in terms of grade sensitivity (DC/SF being the toughest) and proportion of available jobs. For example, in Chicago last year, it was far easier to land a job at OCI if you were interested in transactional work vs. litigation. The opposite was true in SF.

- Practice your interviewing. It blows my mind how hard some people will study for their classes, but they barely prepare for their OCI interviews. If OCI is the first time you're stepping into a legal interview environment, you're fucked. It is absolutely true that some people are just more natural interviewers because they're social and charming, but interviewing is absolutely learnable. The career center will send emails telling you to sign up for mock interviews with alums at firms, and you should absolutely do so. If you get opportunities to do other mock interviews and/or career fairs, do those as well. With the rare exceptions, Biglaw interviews require no substantive legal knowledge: they're all about you. As a result, a lot of the interviews will be exactly the same (tell me about yourself; transactional or litigation and why; tell me about your 1L summer job; why our firm, etc.), so just prepare your answers beforehand.

- This is way early for this, but don't be a dick during OCI. If you're lucky enough to get an offer before OCI, don't shout it all around school. If you're in the middle of the atrium, let those calls for CBs/offers go to voicemail. OCI is an incredibly intense and stressful environment on its own, so don't be that person who makes the whole process even worse.

[Anonymous User]

What kind of GPA do we need to feel relatively comfortable in getting CBs at top-tier Chicago firms (Kirkland, Sidley, Latham, Skadden, any others?). The GPA CB spreadsheets I've seen seem to suggest 3.8ish but wasn't sure if that's skewed for one reason or another.

My understanding is that all the firms you named have historically had informal/soft GPA floors around 3.6 (last year Latham explicitly stated it was 3.55) and it would be around that number that I would be feel "comfortable" that grades wouldn't be the thing holding you back and that they would be worth bidding on high enough to make sure you get screeners. FWIW, Sidley went down to median last year but their summer class is like 65 this summer and idk if they'll maintain that size next year.

[Anonymous User]

What kind of GPA do we need to feel relatively comfortable in getting CBs at top-tier Chicago firms (Kirkland, Sidley, Latham, Skadden, any others?). The GPA CB spreadsheets I've seen seem to suggest 3.8ish but wasn't sure if that's skewed for one reason or another.

There is no GPA that is a guarantee for any particular firm, you cannot change your GPA at this point, so focus on learning what practice areas you are interested in and articulating as such and how that would fit into those firms you named. Once the bidlist stuff comes out people can help you craft one that makes the most sense for you.

It's still before bidding, but people should think about bidding strategically and what firms are realistic. You can't change your GPA, but you can navigate the process intelligently to maximize your chances at an offer.

Those firms won't hire people well-below median barring any exceptional circumstance so telling people in that range to "focus on learning what practice areas you are interested in and articulating as such and how that would fit into those firms you named" is a waste of time.

[Anonymous User]

A couple questions. Thanks!

- How will I fare for Chicago litigation firms at OCI? I'm 3.89, am only interested in litigation, and am pretty much only gonna bid Chicago, because I don't really want to work anywhere else. I have legitimate Chicago ties, have "prestigious" work experience, and am good at interviewing and not being weird. I'm not a (complete) idiot so I have TX as my backup market (ties to TX as well) and will mass mail to the secondary market where I grew up.

- What should/can I do to effectively network with Chicago firms? "Informational" phone calls? Unfortunately I'm not in Chicago this summer to network, and won't be back until the day before OCI starts. I'll network in the major market I'm at and try to secure callbacks with non-Chicago firms out here as a backup, but unfortunately I just can't get back to Chicago this summer. If it helps I went to about seventy bajillion law firm receptions and met a large amount of attorneys in the spring and wrote all their names and identifying info down. Was planning on using this a bit for OCI.

- Which litigation shops should be at the top of my list? Right now it's Bartlit Beck, Jenner Block, Kirkland Ellis, Sidley Austin, Winston Strawn, and Jones Day. Really just following Chambers here. I'm more concerned with getting good litigation experience than Vault ranking. I also would like to work for the least sweat-shoppy firm as possible.

- I imagine the words "appellate litigation" shouldn't be discussed with firms at OCI?

- Any other super general advice for my situation?

[Anonymous User]

How detrimental is a significant GPA drop from first semester to second?

Be prepared to discuss if it comes up

Be prepared to discuss...if it comes up? Shouldn't you be prepared to discuss anything if it comes up?

"Be prepared to use money if you're buying a car"

[FloridaCoastalorbust]

Tag

[Kinky John]

How detrimental is a significant GPA drop from first semester to second?

Be prepared to discuss if it comes up

Be prepared to discuss...if it comes up? Shouldn't you be prepared to discuss anything if it comes up?

"Be prepared to use money if you're buying a car"

Yeah you better start researching 18th century Japanese erotica because that's definitely within the universe of potential topics at an interview

[Anonymous User]

How detrimental is a significant GPA drop from first semester to second?

Be prepared to discuss if it comes up

Be prepared to discuss...if it comes up? Shouldn't you be prepared to discuss anything if it comes up?

"Be prepared to use money if you're buying a car"

Yeah you better start researching 18th century Japanese erotica because that's definitely within the universe of potential topics at an interview

I understand you're being facetious here, but everyone should be prepared to talk about your interests section on your resume (really, all of your resume is fair game) if you have one. This is especially pertinent if you have anything that is even somewhat out of the box or unusual.

[homestyle28]

A couple questions. Thanks!

- How will I fare for Chicago litigation firms at OCI? I'm 3.89, am only interested in litigation, and am pretty much only gonna bid Chicago, because I don't really want to work anywhere else. I have legitimate Chicago ties, have "prestigious" work experience, and am good at interviewing and not being weird. I'm not a (complete) idiot so I have TX as my backup market (ties to TX as well) and will mass mail to the secondary market where I grew up.

- What should/can I do to effectively network with Chicago firms? "Informational" phone calls? Unfortunately I'm not in Chicago this summer to network, and won't be back until the day before OCI starts. I'll network in the major market I'm at and try to secure callbacks with non-Chicago firms out here as a backup, but unfortunately I just can't get back to Chicago this summer. If it helps I went to about seventy bajillion law firm receptions and met a large amount of attorneys in the spring and wrote all their names and identifying info down. Was planning on using this a bit for OCI.

- Which litigation shops should be at the top of my list? Right now it's Bartlit Beck, Jenner Block, Kirkland Ellis, Sidley Austin, Winston Strawn, and Jones Day. Really just following Chambers here. I'm more concerned with getting good litigation experience than Vault ranking. I also would like to work for the least sweat-shoppy firm as possible.

- I imagine the words "appellate litigation" shouldn't be discussed with firms at OCI?

- Any other super general advice for my situation?

Your grades won't be the issue at any firm. If I were you, I'd talk to OCS (not flame) about smaller lit boutiques that pay near market that may not be coming on campus and focus your networking efforts their. Unless you're a total dud at interviews you'll get CBs at a number of the big players, and extra networking efforts prob won't pay off much. FWIW Chambers won't tell you much about life as a lit assoc in big law. I'd try to find out about case team makeup, how do Jr. Assocs get hands-on experience, etc., it's gonna vary a bit from the Bartlit Beck's of the world to the Winstons.

If you can't answer a Q honestly w/o talking about appellate lit, then talk about it, but you have to understand that it's synonymous with clerking, which is great at some firms, but not others.

[cookiejar1]

A couple questions. Thanks!

- How will I fare for Chicago litigation firms at OCI? I'm 3.89, am only interested in litigation, and am pretty much only gonna bid Chicago, because I don't really want to work anywhere else. I have legitimate Chicago ties, have "prestigious" work experience, and am good at interviewing and not being weird. I'm not a (complete) idiot so I have TX as my backup market (ties to TX as well) and will mass mail to the secondary market where I grew up.

I would advise you to be conservative in your interview approach, focus on saying the right things, on being not weird, and on genuinely demonstrating an interest in each firm you're interviewing with. Don't turn off your interviewer and say anything that would raise red flags about your fit. It's smart to bid TX in addition to Chicago. You'll probably hopefully be able to snag a bunch of TX firms towards the lower end of your bid list too which will mean you'll have a lot of screeners.

- What should/can I do to effectively network with Chicago firms? "Informational" phone calls? Unfortunately I'm not in Chicago this summer to network, and won't be back until the day before OCI starts. I'll network in the major market I'm at and try to secure callbacks with non-Chicago firms out here as a backup, but unfortunately I just can't get back to Chicago this summer. If it helps I went to about seventy bajillion law firm receptions and met a large amount of attorneys in the spring and wrote all their names and identifying info down. Was planning on using this a bit for OCI.

If possible, try to obtain an offer before OCI starts. I know a lot of firms these days are extending pre-OCI CBs to candidates with high GPAs. The firms you applied to 1L year might extend early invitations. Take them regardless of their market. It's just so much easier to interview come OCI when you already have an offer in your pocket even if it's an offer form a NYC firm that you probably don't see yourself working at. Mass mail firms that you know you will not bid on for OCI.

Talk to 2Ls/3Ls. There should be an OCI Firm Contact list floating around somewhere (or about to be sent out). Students fresh off of their summer associate experiences and their firm's kool aid are a treasure trove of information pertaining to what exactly makes their firm different/special/the best. Notwithstanding the kool aid, there are obvious differences between a firm like Kirkland & Ellis and Sidley Austin. Get to know these differences! My interview with KE had a completely different flavor compared to my interview with Sidley. The better you understand the firms the better you'll be able to demonstrate to your interviewer that you're a great fit for such firm.

- Which litigation shops should be at the top of my list? Right now it's Bartlit Beck, Jenner Block, Kirkland Ellis, Sidley Austin, Winston Strawn, and Jones Day. Really just following Chambers here. I'm more concerned with getting good litigation experience than Vault ranking. I also would like to work for the least sweat-shoppy firm as possible.

Maybe look at Barack Ferrazzano too. At this point in the process don't worry about firms that are "sweat-shoppy." After you collect all your offers make your decision. Until then no firm should be too sweat-shoppy for you. Don't ask about this until you have offers in your pocket (and even then exercise a lot of tact when trying to determine this).

- I imagine the words "appellate litigation" shouldn't be discussed with firms at OCI?

Yes for two reasons: (1) Bad optics. Don't do anything that could raise red flags (e.g., coming across as a douche). Appellate litigation associates typically come off of prestigious clerkships and decorated academic backgrounds that make your current credentials look extremely average. So worry about appellate litigation after you line up all your prestigious clerkships. For now, just express an eagerness to learn and develop skills not taught in law school. Generally, your interviewer will appreciate this kind of humility. (2) Need. I don't know how badly Chicago firms need bodies in their appellate groups (if at all). Hopefully someone who works in the Chicago market can add their 2 cents.

- Any other super general advice for my situation?

Don't complain about anything related to OCI to any of your law school friends this upcoming cycle. It's hard to be sympathetic to someone with a 3.89. But seriously, always think about your classmates. You'll find yourself interviewing with firms that you suddenly realize that you completely despise. Be professional with them and build the brand of the "Northwestern student." Your classmates and future classmates appreciate it. Also—and we'll have a discussion about this later in this thread I'm sure—but only do a "second look" at a firm if you're truly and genuinely interested at the firm. Don't do a second look and expect the firm to "change your mind" or to "sell themselves" to you. That's just really douchey.

[cookiejar1]

How detrimental is a significant GPA drop from first semester to second?

Be prepared to discuss if it comes up

Be prepared to discuss...if it comes up? Shouldn't you be prepared to discuss anything if it comes up?

"Be prepared to use money if you're buying a car"

Yeah you better start researching 18th century Japanese erotica because that's definitely within the universe of potential topics at an interview

I understand you're being facetious here, but everyone should be prepared to talk about your interests section on your resume (really, all of your resume is fair game) if you have one. This is especially pertinent if you have anything that is even somewhat out of the box or unusual.

To build on this: everyone should be prepared to ask enough questions to keep an interview going for 15 minutes. These questions should be a mix of generic questions and questions specific to the firm. You'll run into interviewers who will just lean back and ask, "so what questions do you have for me?" about 5 minutes into the interview. These interviews are weird because the onus is then on you to keep it going. So have questions prepared.

[feralinfant]

Other good prep ideas: reading any and all posts by cookiejar in the past couple years OCI thread. The man is a goddamn hero and you would be well to utilize him.

Other thoughts: really too early to be thinking a ton about bidding. Grabbing coffee and stuff this summer with associates is not the worst idea so you can demonstrate interest in firms. "Why X" "Well, your firm has a good reputation for Y so I got coffee with Z this summer and he had a lot of positive things to say, not just about the work but about his colleagues". When you do these coffees and such, don't be weird or intense. Just ask general OCI advice questions, what made them choose their firm etc and try to listen more than you talk.

The key is not to overdo it, or oversell it. You want to seem diligent but chill, not weird and obsessive, and are just looking for tiny things to distinguish you. They will interview 20 people who are basically the same in a short time frame. You want to stand out a little, but not too much.

Past two OCI threads:
http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 3&t=248857

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... estern+OCI

[Anonymous User]

A couple questions. Thanks!

- How will I fare for Chicago litigation firms at OCI? I'm 3.89, am only interested in litigation, and am pretty much only gonna bid Chicago, because I don't really want to work anywhere else. I have legitimate Chicago ties, have "prestigious" work experience, and am good at interviewing and not being weird. I'm not a (complete) idiot so I have TX as my backup market (ties to TX as well) and will mass mail to the secondary market where I grew up.

- What should/can I do to effectively network with Chicago firms? "Informational" phone calls? Unfortunately I'm not in Chicago this summer to network, and won't be back until the day before OCI starts. I'll network in the major market I'm at and try to secure callbacks with non-Chicago firms out here as a backup, but unfortunately I just can't get back to Chicago this summer. If it helps I went to about seventy bajillion law firm receptions and met a large amount of attorneys in the spring and wrote all their names and identifying info down. Was planning on using this a bit for OCI.

- Which litigation shops should be at the top of my list? Right now it's Bartlit Beck, Jenner Block, Kirkland Ellis, Sidley Austin, Winston Strawn, and Jones Day. Really just following Chambers here. I'm more concerned with getting good litigation experience than Vault ranking. I also would like to work for the least sweat-shoppy firm as possible.

- I imagine the words "appellate litigation" shouldn't be discussed with firms at OCI?

- Any other super general advice for my situation?

Bartlit Beck does not have a summer program. The firm list comes out soon but Mayer Brown, Latham, and Skadden are big players that you're missing. I agree that you should research the lit boutiques too. Research every Chicago firm coming to OCI. Make sure you do your research on these firms and have a good specific answer to why you want to work at each firm. Your GPA won't hold you back anywhere in Chicago but it also does not guarantee you anything. You're right to not even mention appellate litigation. I would also recommend having a very very good answer for why you didn't work in Chicago for your 1L summer, that might be your toughest hurdle in some of these interviews.

[Anonymous User]

A couple questions. Thanks!

- How will I fare for Chicago litigation firms at OCI? I'm 3.89, am only interested in litigation, and am pretty much only gonna bid Chicago, because I don't really want to work anywhere else. I have legitimate Chicago ties, have "prestigious" work experience, and am good at interviewing and not being weird. I'm not a (complete) idiot so I have TX as my backup market (ties to TX as well) and will mass mail to the secondary market where I grew up.

- What should/can I do to effectively network with Chicago firms? "Informational" phone calls? Unfortunately I'm not in Chicago this summer to network, and won't be back until the day before OCI starts. I'll network in the major market I'm at and try to secure callbacks with non-Chicago firms out here as a backup, but unfortunately I just can't get back to Chicago this summer. If it helps I went to about seventy bajillion law firm receptions and met a large amount of attorneys in the spring and wrote all their names and identifying info down. Was planning on using this a bit for OCI.

- Which litigation shops should be at the top of my list? Right now it's Bartlit Beck, Jenner Block, Kirkland Ellis, Sidley Austin, Winston Strawn, and Jones Day. Really just following Chambers here. I'm more concerned with getting good litigation experience than Vault ranking. I also would like to work for the least sweat-shoppy firm as possible.

- I imagine the words "appellate litigation" shouldn't be discussed with firms at OCI?

- Any other super general advice for my situation?

Bartlit Beck does not have a summer program. The firm list comes out soon but Mayer Brown, Latham, and Skadden are big players that you're missing. I agree that you should research the lit boutiques too. Research every Chicago firm coming to OCI. Make sure you do your research on these firms and have a good specific answer to why you want to work at each firm. Your GPA won't hold you back anywhere in Chicago but it also does not guarantee you anything. You're right to not even mention appellate litigation. I would also recommend having a very very good answer for why you didn't work in Chicago for your 1L summer, that might be your toughest hurdle in some of these interviews.

Yeah, you are golden. That GPA will get you a ton of CBs if you are a normal human being. I was almost exactly where you are (and significantly less prepared given all your mass mailing, etc.) and got CBs from every Chicago firm I did screener interviews with. Almost all of them serve as a resume drop, in my experience. That being said the above advice is on point, the "why firm X?" will always come up and will often be the first question asked so be prepared.

[OCWhy]

Rising 2L here with no clue what to do OCI-wise.

I've got a 3.69 (can I just say 3.7?) GPA and would like to stay in Chicago, but the upper midwest in general would be something I could live with (Minneapolis or Milwaukee for example). I've also been considering DC as a second market (I worked on the Hill one summer before law school. Does that count as a good enough tie?) but idk if that's possible with my GPA. I just have pretty much zero desire to live in New York and my S.O. doesn't either.

I honestly have no idea what kind of law I want to practice. Like literally zero clue. Can't even decide between transactional or litigation. I don't want to sound uninformed or pathetic in interviews, but seriously I don't care as long as they pay me and it's not a miserable place to work. I just want to spend my 2L summer learning lots of different things. I think most practice areas could end up being interesting.

Halp.

[cookiejar1]

I honestly have no idea what kind of law I want to practice. Like literally zero clue. Can't even decide between transactional or litigation. I don't want to sound uninformed or pathetic in interviews, but seriously I don't care as long as they pay me and it's not a miserable place to work. I just want to spend my 2L summer learning lots of different things. I think most practice areas could end up being interesting.

Halp.

Read these http://www.chambers-associate.com/practice-areas so you can pretend to know what you're talking about come interview season. This is a good starting point.