How many hours do you really work at a large law firm? Forum

[gaddockteeg]

DC big law. market. 9a-7p Mon-Fri. 9a-1p Sat-Sun.

[gk101]

Agree with what smaug said above. The months where I bill 250+, I am working 8:30 AM - 10 PM or later on a consistent basis with most of the efficient billing happening during the evening hours. Most of the time I try to bill around 175/month and I am in the office from 8:30AM - 7:30 PM plus some weekend work. Most of my slow periods (where I get to leave at 5 or earlier) doesn't last for more than a couple of days. I probably would start to panic if it lasted more than a week

I assume the people who are in the office for 9 hours and bill 8+ are extremely liberal with the clock or are robots

[Anonymous User]

Seems like the average office hour is 10ish hours a day with an additional work on the weekends for like 4ish hours and occasional all-nighter. Call me crazy but how is it even labeled aweful?

I worked in a consulting firm and the average office hour was more than 12 hours INCLUDING Saturday. Midsized law firms/inhouse work 8:30-9 office hours.

[Lacepiece23]

Seems like the average office hour is 10ish hours a day with an additional work on the weekends for like 4ish hours and occasional all-nighter. Call me crazy but how is it even labeled aweful?

I worked in a consulting firm and the average office hour was more than 12 hours INCLUDING Saturday. Midsized law firms/inhouse work 8:30-9 office hours.

Having to bill all that time is pretty tough. The people in this thread a pretty efficient, but its not uncommon for me to be in the office for 11 hours to bill 8. I can't just sit there an write a brief for 7 hours without a break. Some people can do it. I've never done consulting, but I'd imagine that there was some down time during the day where you talked to people, weren't working, were on the phone for business, etc. Working at a law firm, especially when your junior, means literally starting at a computer screen for 10-11 straight hours with no lunch to bill 8-9 hours.

I've worked long hours in other jobs, but the lack of social interaction can make working at a law firm pretty tough, well in my opinion.

[20160810]

I thought we already debunked the "smaller law firm means fewer hours" myth but then I read the 100 attorney cutoff in the op.

How much you work depends a bit on the firm and a lot on your practice group, how busy that group happens to be, and what partners you work for.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Seems like the average office hour is 10ish hours a day with an additional work on the weekends for like 4ish hours and occasional all-nighter. Call me crazy but how is it even labeled aweful?

I worked in a consulting firm and the average office hour was more than 12 hours INCLUDING Saturday. Midsized law firms/inhouse work 8:30-9 office hours.

Apart from the hours/billing issue, and also the lack of control over when you're busy, because the hours for one job suck doesn't mean they don't also suck in another job that might be slightly better.

[gregfootball2001]

I am around 2300 hours for the year and work 8:30-630 with a half saturday/sunday for 4 hours. I take 12 minutes to eat lunch at my desk and chat up people for another 15 or so. I bill at least 9 hours without issue. If I am not billing, I go home. This is not hard. I do not understand how people do not spend every minute (minus lunch) billing.

So did the time to post this come from the 12 minute lunch or the 15 minutes of chatting?

[smaug]

@consulting anon

The hours aren't that bad. Really! The stress is bad. Proscratination coupled with the hours is bad. Fitting ten hours of work into four hours of time is bad. Crippling debt coupled with a lack of job security is bad. Total lack of clarity with respect to long-term planning is bad.

The hours are just hours.

I think law students generally misapprehend which parts of being a lawyer are bad.

[kaysta]

OP: just read this

https://www.law.yale.edu/student-life/c ... lable-hour

Don't read that, because that's fucking stupid. Who the fuck takes an hour lunch every fucking day?

PnJ - just stop posting about shit you don't have first-hand knowledge about. We have enough lawyers here to give real answers without your vague bullshit.

Previously worked another white collar job, not law, we all got a solid hour every day, it was beautiful
But on topic, I think the worst I've done is 30 hour weekends the whole month, but that was not usual

[Anonymous User]

TLS is way skewed toward the NY/SF V10+ firms. In my V50 in a secondary market, we get paid roughly NY base (160-170-185-210...) and only the median or above median associate hits 2000. Bonuses reward associates who hit 2000 or more, but the typical associate in my corporate group works weekends only rarely and leaves at 6 most days. Some groups average 1600-1700 (e.g. tax). I have never heard of anyone getting fired for billing 1800 instead of 2000. I'm pretty sure there are many other Vault firms like this, especially outside of NY/SF.

[Anonymous User]

I'm a midlevel in transactional on track to bill around 2000, so around average. The issue with working at a big firm is the IRREGULARITY of hours, especially in transactional groups, and the fact that you have to drop everything because you are constantly on call. I can sit there all day until 5 pm with nothing to do then have to stay around all night working on an ASAP project. Also, 99% of projects are ASAP/fire drill/get this done as soon as you can projects. That is what is annoying - you can literally never plan your day/evenings and have to work under constant pressure to get shit done ASAP (often with fake deadlines that are real deadlines for you). I was always a procrastinator in school so this is the tough part of biglaw. Plus EVERY assignment is a new learning process, so you are constantly learning - some people may like that, but for a lot of people, that along with the pressure to do everything ASAP (often at night) is tough.

I'd say a typical week goes like this (obviously this varies by week depending on what's going on with your deals):
Monday: 10 AM to 7 PM
Tuesday: 10 AM to Midnight/2AM
Wednesday: 10 AM to Midnight/2AM
Thursday: 10 AM to 8 PM
Friday: 10 AM to 7 PM
Weekends: Either work 6 hours a weekend or 30 hours a weekend, depending on what's going on. The first is more common.

Also keep in mind that as a junior you aren't really just randomly billing for calls - you are likely doing paperwork/research/writing/drafting for ALL of your billables. Spending all of your billables doing paper work is not fun.... I don't know what consultants do but I doubt all of your working hours are spent doing paperwork.

Also pulling multiple 16+ hour days in a row is not fun since you likely will be spending the ENTIRE time doing paperwork....eating very little, no down time, etc.

You guys just won't understand biglaw unless you do it, but if you're actually on track with respect to billables in biglaw (at least in a major market), biglaw is not a walk in the park.

[Anonymous User]

Here's a list of what makes biglaw bad:

- The constant on call
- Never know when you are going to get work and how long each project will take
- Every project is ASAP fire drill (at least in transactional) - No joke, my heart rate goes up when I have to deal with constant ASAP fire drill projects
- The hours - because of the first three items listed above, your hours are likely going to suck. They say on average you only bill around 75% of the time you actually work.
- Multiple people asking for stuff at the same time (and if you turn any of them down, they will be mad and think you are not committed to the firm)
- Caring a ton about formatting/non-substantive stuff in documents that will make people think worse of you if you don't do it properly
- Half the people you work with are mentally ill crazy people who are passive aggressive/aggressive
- A lot of firms want you to be committed to your work over everything else in your life, including your family (no offense, but associates don't get paid that much to be committed to biglaw over your personal life, etc.)
- Every assignment is a learning project - I don't know about you guys, but sometimes I just want to relax and stop thinking all the time.

[Anonymous User]

Also keep in mind that as a junior you aren't really just randomly billing for calls - you are likely doing paperwork/research/writing/drafting for ALL of your billables. Spending all of your billables doing paper work is not fun.... I don't know what consultants do but I doubt all of your working hours are spent doing paperwork.

Also pulling multiple 16+ hour days in a row is not fun since you likely will be spending the ENTIRE time doing paperwork....eating very little, no down time, etc.

You guys just won't understand biglaw unless you do it, but if you're actually on track with respect to billables in biglaw (at least in a major market), biglaw is not a walk in the park.

This is 1000% true for juniors. You have no idea how brutal every hour is. You will pray for doc review because at least it's low stress. You will envy the partners because at least they have meetings to go to, calls to take, travel, human interaction!! As a junior every hour you bill will be an hour spent alone at your computer, usually confused and extremely stressed, and doing work always tedious and often unnecessary. There really is no reward for being a junior. You never get home at the end of a 300 hr month and think you made a difference or did something useful. If someone tells you they enjoy being a junior they are lying or about to be fired. The firm is usually polite about it but every once in a while it become clear as day that you are their bitch.

[Anonymous User]

Also keep in mind that as a junior you aren't really just randomly billing for calls - you are likely doing paperwork/research/writing/drafting for ALL of your billables. Spending all of your billables doing paper work is not fun.... I don't know what consultants do but I doubt all of your working hours are spent doing paperwork.

Also pulling multiple 16+ hour days in a row is not fun since you likely will be spending the ENTIRE time doing paperwork....eating very little, no down time, etc.

You guys just won't understand biglaw unless you do it, but if you're actually on track with respect to billables in biglaw (at least in a major market), biglaw is not a walk in the park.

This is 1000% true for juniors. You have no idea how brutal every hour is. You will pray for doc review because at least it's low stress. You will envy the partners because at least they have meetings to go to, calls to take, travel, human interaction!! As a junior every hour you bill will be an hour spent alone at your computer, usually confused and extremely stressed, and doing work always tedious and often unnecessary. There really is no reward for being a junior. You never get home at the end of a 300 hr month and think you made a difference or did something useful. If someone tells you they enjoy being a junior they are lying or about to be fired. The firm is usually polite about it but every once in a while it becomes clear as day that you are their bitch.

[JenDarby]

Seems like the average office hour is 10ish hours a day with an additional work on the weekends for like 4ish hours and occasional all-nighter. Call me crazy but how is it even labeled aweful?

I worked in a consulting firm and the average office hour was more than 12 hours INCLUDING Saturday. Midsized law firms/inhouse work 8:30-9 office hours.

Having to bill all that time is pretty tough. The people in this thread a pretty efficient, but its not uncommon for me to be in the office for 11 hours to bill 8. I can't just sit there an write a brief for 7 hours without a break. Some people can do it. I've never done consulting, but I'd imagine that there was some down time during the day where you talked to people, weren't working, were on the phone for business, etc. Working at a law firm, especially when your junior, means literally starting at a computer screen for 10-11 straight hours with no lunch to bill 8-9 hours.

I've worked long hours in other jobs, but the lack of social interaction can make working at a law firm pretty tough, well in my opinion.

You do recognize that consulting is billable hours too, right? And when you're junior you're likely an analyst staring at a screen doing financial modeling and shit all day.

[Johann]

Seems like the average office hour is 10ish hours a day with an additional work on the weekends for like 4ish hours and occasional all-nighter. Call me crazy but how is it even labeled aweful?

I worked in a consulting firm and the average office hour was more than 12 hours INCLUDING Saturday. Midsized law firms/inhouse work 8:30-9 office hours.

if you keep spelling awful like a dumbass, biglaw wont be a problem you have to concern yourself with.

[smaug]

Seems like the average office hour is 10ish hours a day with an additional work on the weekends for like 4ish hours and occasional all-nighter. Call me crazy but how is it even labeled aweful?

I worked in a consulting firm and the average office hour was more than 12 hours INCLUDING Saturday. Midsized law firms/inhouse work 8:30-9 office hours.

if you keep spelling awful like a dumbass, biglaw wont be a problem you have to concern yourself with.

[Johann]

@consulting anon

The hours aren't that bad. Really! The stress is bad. Proscratination coupled with the hours is bad. Fitting ten hours of work into four hours of time is bad. Crippling debt coupled with a lack of job security is bad. Total lack of clarity with respect to long-term planning is bad.

The hours are just hours.

I think law students generally misapprehend which parts of being a lawyer are bad.

If you're not working a lot something is wrong with either you or your firm. There's nothing reassuring about consistently going home at 6.

prospective law students that are good at logic: when you consider both of these together, when do you think biglaw will not be awful? you are either busting your ass stressing getting more and more work on your plate with more responsibility and stressing about that increasing responsibility, or you're stressing about losing your job because the firm doesn't need you. i hardly think of myself as a risk-averse person and have made some big time gambles, and biglaw is the most ruthless, fickle bitch ive ever encountered.

[Barack O'Drama]

@consulting anon

The hours aren't that bad. Really! The stress is bad. Proscratination coupled with the hours is bad. Fitting ten hours of work into four hours of time is bad. Crippling debt coupled with a lack of job security is bad. Total lack of clarity with respect to long-term planning is bad.

The hours are just hours.

I think law students generally misapprehend which parts of being a lawyer are bad.

If you're not working a lot something is wrong with either you or your firm. There's nothing reassuring about consistently going home at 6.

prospective law students that are good at logic: when you consider both of these together, when do you think biglaw will not be awful? you are either busting your ass stressing getting more and more work on your plate with more responsibility and stressing about that increasing responsibility, or you're stressing about losing your job because the firm doesn't need you. i hardly think of myself as a risk-averse person and have made some big time gambles, and biglaw is the most ruthless, fickle bitch ive ever encountered.

How much training do you get when you start Mr. Demann? Will they teach you the basic stuff you have to do? For the formats and stuff is there a guide?

[Flips88]

My two cents is in line with Smaug--it's not the hours but the incumbent stress that is the real killer. My March to March billables were over 3k i believe. A lot of that was travel to all over the fucking place, which is shitty in its own way, and kind of soul sucking when you're traveling to shitty places where you don't know people and you do something all day and then go to your hotel to catch up on other work. High hour months when you are home all the time are much worse though. A couple months ago I was at the office until 11 on 3 Fridays and went to sleep at 1:30 or 2 most nights.

It's very taxing to be mentally engaged on stuff for that long and it is hard to turn your brain off when you work late and need to go to bed. It's also very frustrating when people you know are slammed but keep piling stuff on because everyone else is slammed and someone has to do it. Or when people wait for things to become fire drills and it ruins your night/weekend.

As for efficiency, i think it is much easier to work efficiently when slammed. I don't get shit done when I have a few non-time sensitive projects or short one-off projects. But if I have 10k docs to review or a brief to research and write then it's easier to work for big blocks of time.

[Anonymous User]

Here's a list of what makes biglaw bad:

- The constant on call
- Never know when you are going to get work and how long each project will take
- Every project is ASAP fire drill (at least in transactional) - No joke, my heart rate goes up when I have to deal with constant ASAP fire drill projects
- The hours - because of the first three items listed above, your hours are likely going to suck. They say on average you only bill around 75% of the time you actually work.
- Multiple people asking for stuff at the same time (and if you turn any of them down, they will be mad and think you are not committed to the firm)
- Caring a ton about formatting/non-substantive stuff in documents that will make people think worse of you if you don't do it properly
- Half the people you work with are mentally ill crazy people who are passive aggressive/aggressive
- A lot of firms want you to be committed to your work over everything else in your life, including your family (no offense, but associates don't get paid that much to be committed to biglaw over your personal life, etc.)
- Every assignment is a learning project - I don't know about you guys, but sometimes I just want to relax and stop thinking all the time.

Is it common for transactional in biglaw? How about around 150-200 Lawyer Law Firm, rather than V10-20?

[Lacepiece23]

Seems like the average office hour is 10ish hours a day with an additional work on the weekends for like 4ish hours and occasional all-nighter. Call me crazy but how is it even labeled aweful?

I worked in a consulting firm and the average office hour was more than 12 hours INCLUDING Saturday. Midsized law firms/inhouse work 8:30-9 office hours.

Having to bill all that time is pretty tough. The people in this thread a pretty efficient, but its not uncommon for me to be in the office for 11 hours to bill 8. I can't just sit there an write a brief for 7 hours without a break. Some people can do it. I've never done consulting, but I'd imagine that there was some down time during the day where you talked to people, weren't working, were on the phone for business, etc. Working at a law firm, especially when your junior, means literally starting at a computer screen for 10-11 straight hours with no lunch to bill 8-9 hours.

I've worked long hours in other jobs, but the lack of social interaction can make working at a law firm pretty tough, well in my opinion.

You do recognize that consulting is billable hours too, right? And when you're junior you're likely an analyst staring at a screen doing financial modeling and shit all day.

Didn't know that. Like I said, never done consulting and was never interested. If true, then I'd rather be a litigation associate in biglaw.

[gaddockteeg]

My week sucked. I was in the office like 60+ hours this week but only billed something 28 hours.

[Anonymous User]

Lit. Large, highly regarded firm in SF. Midlevel.

Get in around 8. Leave around 7. Generally take 45 or so for lunch, plus coffee breaks during the day. Very little work at night. Work most weekends though. On pace for about 2200. Knowing that I generally have nights to myself and my SO makes the job substantially more tolerable, even if I have to set aside 4-6 hours every weekend to do work.

[Anonymous User]

Lit NYC biglaw, 4th year.

It completely depends.

A few weeks a year I roll in at 10 and leave at 4.
The "average" week is some combination of 10-6 and then a few days where it's like 10-9/10, maybe billing 70% efficiency. Then a couple hours on the weekends.
Then there's always at least 8-12 weeks that are 300+ hours, in office constantly, billing close to 100% efficiency.

As other posters have said, the problem is that bucket 3 exists and can't be shunted into bucket 1 or 2. Even in lit, matters come back, partners you work for pull you onto matters (over your protests, citing "client concerns" or "lack of capacity in the department right now"), and suddenly that 200 hour month becomes a 300+ hour month. This situation is unavoidable.

As you get more senior you realize a lot of your work could more easily be done by trained non-legal staff, but that those tasks are built into your responsibilities to make it seem like you need to be doing them and the firm doesn't want to invest in these resources or keep these people on in lean times. It's extraordinarily frustrating especially when you are billing 300+ hours.