Do people really get no-offered for "fit"? Forum

[rpupkin]

What is a "cold offer"? "We'll tell NALP we made you an offer but you ain't working here next year, buddy" just sounds like lying.

If this sort of "lying" bothers you, choose another profession.

Your use of scare quotes implies you think that it's not lying.

I think it's the sort of misleading/reality-distorting practice that you'll encounter on a regular basis in big law.

[Anonymous User]

What is a "cold offer"? "We'll tell NALP we made you an offer but you ain't working here next year, buddy" just sounds like lying.

If this sort of "lying" bothers you, choose another profession.

Your use of scare quotes implies you think that it's not lying.

Sure, it technically is "lying." But so what? It makes a lot of sense as a practice because the summer associate hiring model is really fucking stupid. In what other profession are employers expected to hire new employees over 2 years before their start date, pay them $3100/week to party all summer and be unproductive, then give 100% of them permanent offers regardless of economic realities or whether or not they're asshats? It's completely absurd.

The sad result of this hiring model is that firms view an outright "no-offer" as a scarlet letter and therefore desirable candidates do their best to avoid a firm that no-offers like the plague. This puts a firm in a really tough place. Either they callously end someone's career before it has even begun and make the firm look bad, or they bite the bullet and hire someone or who they either can't afford (because of economics) or who wasn't working out for any number of other reasons (i.e. "fit").

The "cold-offer" is a humane compromise to this and is win-win for the summer associate and the firm. The summer associate can go seek another job without having that scarlet letter (because the firm is willing back them up), and the firm maintains its reputation. Do you think it's any different when you become a full-time associate? Do you know what getting "pushed out" is?

Welcome to the legal profession.

[Anonymous User]

I will be the only SA at a firm that upfront warned me that they weren't making any promises about full-time offer. Do you think that is (a) there way of reserving the right to no-offer if they don't like/need me; or (b) there way of subtly informing me I will not be getting an offer and I should hustle this summer.

This is exactly the same situation i'm in, wondering if I posted this and forgot that i posted it here lol. I'm the only summer and the hiring attorney just told me in par with sending me the employment letter.

[Anonymous User]

The only no offer from the firm I summered at was for fit, and this was a firm that traditionally has big summer classes / 100% offer rates. The summers were all fairly personable, but this guy was straight up off-putting to be around and likely got axed because of it (in the sense that he would inevitably make people feel uncomfortable in casual conversation - I think he may have had some degree of aspergers).

[Anonymous User]

Yes.

Like someone said earlier in the thread, it depends on your law firm, market, etc. I was a summer in secondary biglaw market. My firm no offered a summer for "fit" even though he had amazing qualifications and strong work product. This guy was not like the one poster above me described. Generally a likable person and not awkward. However, he missed many formal/scheduled events, was not very involved with impromptu firm get togethers, didn't generally have an outgoing attitude (let's be real, we are basically pageant contestants--smiling and always in good spirits), and did not make friends with other summers.

I actually think he would have been a good "fit," but he didn't seem to understand that a lot of the weight (for this particular firm) was put on whether or not the attorneys could see themselves spending a lot of time with you, not whether you write incredible briefs, etc. He never understood that producing amazing work was not enough.

[Lincoln]

Yes.

Like someone said earlier in the thread, it depends on your law firm, market, etc. I was a summer in secondary biglaw market. My firm no offered a summer for "fit" even though he had amazing qualifications and strong work product. This guy was not like the one poster above me described. Generally a likable person and not awkward. However, he missed many formal/scheduled events, was not very involved with impromptu firm get togethers, didn't generally have an outgoing attitude (let's be real, we are basically pageant contestants--smiling and always in good spirits), and did not make friends with other summers.

I actually think he would have been a good "fit," but he didn't seem to understand that a lot of the weight (for this particular firm) was put on whether or not the attorneys could see themselves spending a lot of time with you, not whether you write incredible briefs, etc. He never understood that producing amazing work was not enough.

This would never, ever be grounds for a cold or no-offer at my firm.

[Johann]

I'd say no offers are almost always 90%+) because of fit and rarely work product. Summers don't complete enough assignments to get judged on work product (unless their work is egregiously sloppy).

[Spartan_Alum_12]

It's more legitimate than the whole "ties to the market" thing in interviews.

[Anonymous User]

My firm is historically 100%, but we had a no offer/cold offer last summer. The rumors were work product, but my take on the person was that they were extremely socially awkward, and likely rubbed some of the people that they had to work with the wrong way. With the things that summers are tasked to do, really, it seems unlikely that work product is ever really an issue for anyone that gives enough of a shit.

[84651846190]

Or it just can excuse to no offer someone for another reason?

Does anyone know someone who was no-offered for fit, and if so what was the situation like?

Fit is more important than intelligence for junior associates. The work is simply not that hard. Most T14ers can do it. A lot (most?) non-T14ers can do it.

But working with someone who is insufferable can be, well, insufferable. It creates a toxic environment that is much worse than merely having one person with a slightly dimmer light bulb upstairs.

[Anonymous User]

I'm sure it happens, though work product is more important. Both our no-offers were a combination of poor fit plus mediocre work product.

I'm not sure that's right. At firms that typically make offers to all of their summers but that nevertheless occasionally no-offer someone, I'd guess that fit/personality, not work product, is usually the reason for the no offer. It's hard to know for sure, though.

I think work product matters when it's really bad (like noticeably worse than the other summers)....eg I asked a summer to create two officer's certificates based on a precedent and all he did was save the precedent document to our system two times, made no further changes, emailed me what he saved to the system (ie, two of the same thing) and asked no questions and gave no indications that he struggled. There were substantive changes I asked him to make that I wasn't expecting him to get right but he didn't even make the changes I asked him to make that are fairly intuitive like updating the dates and putting in the correct entity names. My impression is that he simply put little thought into it. This was a HYS kid so he is plenty smart. He did get an offer because they didn't want to spoil the offer rate but it was a close call and his terrible work product was the main issue. Now he is back permanently and I've heard things aren't going well. This is why our quest to give 100% offers is misguided....those juniors we shouldnt have offered are making the more senior lawyers' lives harder and probably increase the chance of an event occurring that could piss the client off. I'm not suggesting we should be no offering large swaths of people but if it is a 12-week interview, then let's treat it as such and not offer people who demonstrate really subpar work product even by summer standards. /offtopic

In short, think of summer work product like the SATs and admissions to elite colleges - good SATs don't really get you anything but bad SATs will probably keep you out. IMO the best way to avoid bad work product is to ask questions if you aren't sure (make a list of all your questions to ask the senior at once, though, rather than sending 15 separate emails) and to use common sense. Also make sure you communicate esp if you are going to miss a deadline.

[Anonymous User]

I'm headed to a small satellite office this summer.

Last summer my firm no-offered 1 summer out of a class of 6. The year before the office had a 100% offer rate.

Should I be worried?

[Anonymous User]

Yes. I work at a V10. We had a summer last summer who, unquestionably, should not have made it past the interview stage. This summer was incredibly, painfully awkward at all social interactions, generally behaved obnoxiously for the entire summer and received no offer. We had not no-offered anyone in about seven years and did not anticipate doing so at the beginning of the summer. It was entirely a "fit" decision. Their work product was fine (nothing fantastic, but not below average for a summer, either), but this summer was so problematic to work with on a personal level that work product was essentially irrelevant.

That said, these circumstances are incredibly rare. If you are actually this painfully awkward, unfortunately, you are probably not self-aware enough to think you might be awkward.

[jbagelboy]

Yes. I work at a V10. We had a summer last summer who, unquestionably, should not have made it past the interview stage. This summer was incredibly, painfully awkward at all social interactions, generally behaved obnoxiously for the entire summer and received no offer. We had not no-offered anyone in about seven years and did not anticipate doing so at the beginning of the summer. It was entirely a "fit" decision. Their work product was fine (nothing fantastic, but not below average for a summer, either), but this summer was so problematic to work with on a personal level that work product was essentially irrelevant.

That said, these circumstances are incredibly rare. If you are actually this painfully awkward, unfortunately, you are probably not self-aware enough to think you might be awkward.

Ouch.

On the opposite spectrum, there was the famous Latham SA last summer who was canned for "fit" i.e. hosting a coke party in his upgraded hotel suite during the summer retreat one story above a partner's room.

Then there was the Wilkie summer who certainly didn't "fit" after he got piss drunk while sexually harassing females in his class at bowling and stood up a partner for a court date by missing work the next day.

So much fun.

[Anonymous User]

Or it just can excuse to no offer someone for another reason?

Does anyone know someone who was no-offered for fit, and if so what was the situation like?

Happened to a friend of mine last summer. Got called in for his end of the summer review and they said "we need to be honest with you here, you just don't seem to fit" - boom no offer.

[Anonymous User]

Or it just can excuse to no offer someone for another reason?

Does anyone know someone who was no-offered for fit, and if so what was the situation like?

Happened to a friend of mine last summer. Got called in for his end of the summer review and they said "we need to be honest with you here, you just don't seem to fit" - boom no offer.

[jt91isles]

Or it just can excuse to no offer someone for another reason?

Does anyone know someone who was no-offered for fit, and if so what was the situation like?

Happened to a friend of mine last summer. Got called in for his end of the summer review and they said "we need to be honest with you here, you just don't seem to fit" - boom no offer.

Did not mean to anon.

[Rule104(a)]

Or it just can excuse to no offer someone for another reason?

Does anyone know someone who was no-offered for fit, and if so what was the situation like?

Happened to a friend of mine last summer. Got called in for his end of the summer review and they said "we need to be honest with you here, you just don't seem to fit" - boom no offer.

Did they at least give them a heads up during the mid-summer review? Like "hey your work is fine but maybe you could be more social..."