1L Summer Associate?? Forum

[jrfisher8]

I'm a 1L at UC Davis SOL at about the 45% percentile in my class. I recently reached out to the small (about 25 attorneys) law firm I clerked for in the year before attending law school regarding a possible summer position. Today I received an email from one of the associates asking to schedule a 15-20 minute call to "talk about the firm's summer associate position."

Now, assuming that this is an actual interview, what do you think my chances are of actually getting the job? I know it's probably good that they know me well and like me, but I also realize that 1Ls generally don't get summer associate positions due to lack of experience. I think it's probably safe to assume that I'm going up against at least a few other 2L candidates.

That said, I know that it's almost impossible to tell any specific person's intentions, but generally what do you guys think? Will my past relationship with them be enough to give me a competitive edge over more experienced 2Ls? My previous position with them was equivalent to a file clerk, so while I do have a little experience regarding courthouse filing, I didn't learn anything substantive.

Thanks in advance for the responses!

[hoorahray]

What difference does it make? You still have to prepare for the phone call, do well on the phone call, probably do an in person interview, etc regardless of whether you have an "edge." Whether you have an edge changes absolutely nothing from your perspective. Worry about the things you can control.

[hairbear7]

13.6% now. If you can get a callback, it probably raises your chances to around 47%

[RaceJudicata]

If people told you your chances were 0% would it actually change how you prepared for the call? Pro tip: Treat every networking opportunity as an interview (at least while you are in school).

[Catsinthebag]

Agree with all above, plus some firms reserve a couple spots for 1Ls. But if he had said, "Let's talk about the effect of logging on indigenous people in Chile," instead of about an SA position, as folks have already stated said, it should change nothing.

[Avian]

People are generally talking about biglaw anyway since the big firms tend to operate similarly. You can't make many generalizations about small firms because they all do things differently.

[PeanutsNJam]

I also realize that 1Ls generally don't get summer associate positions due to lack of experience.

1Ls "generally" don't get summer associate positions at big firms because these positions pay $2000-3000/week, and the firm gets no billables out of it. A summer associate at these firms also has a very great chance of automatically getting a 2L position, which gives a very great chance at a full-time offer. These are few in number and highly competitive for these reasons.

Smaller firms don't operate the same way. If they pay anything, it will be around $15/hr. These position also hold no guarantees of a second year offer, or a full time offer. As such, they are significantly less competitive. Regarding your chances, I'd say they are fairly decent so long as you perform well in your phone interview.

Avian is also right in that small firms are very idiosyncratic and can't be generalized.

[Serett]

13.6% now. If you can get a callback, it probably raises your chances to around 47%

One can quibble with some of the minute calculations, but I think this sounds approximately correct.

[stannis]

I also realize that 1Ls generally don't get summer associate positions due to lack of experience.

1Ls "generally" don't get summer associate positions at big firms because these positions pay $2000-3000/week, and the firm gets no billables out of it. A summer associate at these firms also has a very great chance of automatically getting a 2L position, which gives a very great chance at a full-time offer. These are few in number and highly competitive for these reasons.

Smaller firms don't operate the same way. If they pay anything, it will be around $15/hr. These position also hold no guarantees of a second year offer, or a full time offer. As such, they are significantly less competitive. Regarding your chances, I'd say they are fairly decent so long as you perform well in your phone interview.

Avian is also right in that small firms are very idiosyncratic and can't be generalized.

This is bad information and is an example of the classic TLS "if it's not biglaw, it must be shitlaw" mentality.

There are a lot of firms, particularly in tertiary and secondary markets that are "small" by national standards (25-75 lawyers maybe), pay way more than $15 an hour, but a lot less than an annualized rate of $160k. Jobs at these firms are competitive and many of these firms recruit primarily from their SA classes (which may be 1-6 in size).

I go to a regional school and will be summering at such a firm, and so will about 15% of my classmates.

You very accurately described another subset of firms, which more people from schools like mine end up working at. That being said, there is a lot of legal work in between F500 mergers and Samsung/Apple patent wars on one hand, and divorces, DUIs, and estate plans on the other.

I have no idea if OP's firm is more like the midlaw firm I described or the small law firm you described, but you aren't doing him and others any favors by making gross, inaccurate generalizations about the legal market.

I apologize if this post is harsh, and it's definitely not personal.

ETA: I have no idea if biglaw firms bill out their summers, but I can assure you that at least some midlaw firms do. It is at a much lower rate than attorney hours, and probably gets heavily written off, but (some) midlaw summers do produce revenue.

[Catsinthebag]

I also realize that 1Ls generally don't get summer associate positions due to lack of experience.

1Ls "generally" don't get summer associate positions at big firms because these positions pay $2000-3000/week, and the firm gets no billables out of it. A summer associate at these firms also has a very great chance of automatically getting a 2L position, which gives a very great chance at a full-time offer. These are few in number and highly competitive for these reasons.

Smaller firms don't operate the same way. If they pay anything, it will be around $15/hr. These position also hold no guarantees of a second year offer, or a full time offer. As such, they are significantly less competitive. Regarding your chances, I'd say they are fairly decent so long as you perform well in your phone interview.

Avian is also right in that small firms are very idiosyncratic and can't be generalized.

This is bad information and is an example of the classic TLS "if it's not biglaw, it must be shitlaw" mentality.

There are a lot of firms, particularly in tertiary and secondary markets that are "small" by national standards (25-75 lawyers maybe), pay way more than $15 an hour, but a lot less than an annualized rate of $160k. Jobs at these firms are competitive and many of these firms recruit primarily from their SA classes (which may be 1-6 in size).

I go to a regional school and will be summering at such a firm, and so will about 15% of my classmates.

You very accurately described another subset of firms, which more people from schools like mine end up working at. That being said, there is a lot of legal work in between F500 mergers and Samsung/Apple patent wars on one hand, and divorces, DUIs, and estate plans on the other.

I have no idea if OP's firm is more like the midlaw firm I described or the small law firm you described, but you aren't doing him and others any favors by making gross, inaccurate generalizations about the legal market.

I apologize if this post is harsh, and it's definitely not personal.

ETA: I have no idea if biglaw firms bill out their summers, but I can assure you that at least some midlaw firms do. It is at a much lower rate than attorney hours, and probably gets heavily written off, but (some) midlaw summers do produce revenue.

Much truth.

[PeanutsNJam]

I also realize that 1Ls generally don't get summer associate positions due to lack of experience.

1Ls "generally" don't get summer associate positions at big firms because these positions pay $2000-3000/week, and the firm gets no billables out of it. A summer associate at these firms also has a very great chance of automatically getting a 2L position, which gives a very great chance at a full-time offer. These are few in number and highly competitive for these reasons.

Smaller firms don't operate the same way. If they pay anything, it will be around $15/hr. These position also hold no guarantees of a second year offer, or a full time offer. As such, they are significantly less competitive. Regarding your chances, I'd say they are fairly decent so long as you perform well in your phone interview.

Avian is also right in that small firms are very idiosyncratic and can't be generalized.

This is bad information and is an example of the classic TLS "if it's not biglaw, it must be shitlaw" mentality.

There are a lot of firms, particularly in tertiary and secondary markets that are "small" by national standards (25-75 lawyers maybe), pay way more than $15 an hour, but a lot less than an annualized rate of $160k. Jobs at these firms are competitive and many of these firms recruit primarily from their SA classes (which may be 1-6 in size).

I go to a regional school and will be summering at such a firm, and so will about 15% of my classmates.

You very accurately described another subset of firms, which more people from schools like mine end up working at. That being said, there is a lot of legal work in between F500 mergers and Samsung/Apple patent wars on one hand, and divorces, DUIs, and estate plans on the other.

I have no idea if OP's firm is more like the midlaw firm I described or the small law firm you described, but you aren't doing him and others any favors by making gross, inaccurate generalizations about the legal market.

I apologize if this post is harsh, and it's definitely not personal.

ETA: I have no idea if biglaw firms bill out their summers, but I can assure you that at least some midlaw firms do. It is at a much lower rate than attorney hours, and probably gets heavily written off, but (some) midlaw summers do produce revenue.

What's the summer compensation and the offer rate like at these mid law firms? for 1L -> 2L, and 2L -> full time?

I'm also thinking that your firm is the "biglaw" of the city you're in. Pretty sure OP specifically said "small" law firm.

[BigZuck]

"about 25 attorneys" and "courthouse filing" suggests small law to me and just by playing the odds that nature of the work is probably a lot closer to DUIs, divorces, estate planning, small lawsuits, etc. but maybe not I guess

But of course as always, any impotent rage directed at the hive is acknowledged and appreciated

[stannis]

I also realize that 1Ls generally don't get summer associate positions due to lack of experience.

1Ls "generally" don't get summer associate positions at big firms because these positions pay $2000-3000/week, and the firm gets no billables out of it. A summer associate at these firms also has a very great chance of automatically getting a 2L position, which gives a very great chance at a full-time offer. These are few in number and highly competitive for these reasons.

Smaller firms don't operate the same way. If they pay anything, it will be around $15/hr. These position also hold no guarantees of a second year offer, or a full time offer. As such, they are significantly less competitive. Regarding your chances, I'd say they are fairly decent so long as you perform well in your phone interview.

Avian is also right in that small firms are very idiosyncratic and can't be generalized.

This is bad information and is an example of the classic TLS "if it's not biglaw, it must be shitlaw" mentality.

There are a lot of firms, particularly in tertiary and secondary markets that are "small" by national standards (25-75 lawyers maybe), pay way more than $15 an hour, but a lot less than an annualized rate of $160k. Jobs at these firms are competitive and many of these firms recruit primarily from their SA classes (which may be 1-6 in size).

I go to a regional school and will be summering at such a firm, and so will about 15% of my classmates.

You very accurately described another subset of firms, which more people from schools like mine end up working at. That being said, there is a lot of legal work in between F500 mergers and Samsung/Apple patent wars on one hand, and divorces, DUIs, and estate plans on the other.

I have no idea if OP's firm is more like the midlaw firm I described or the small law firm you described, but you aren't doing him and others any favors by making gross, inaccurate generalizations about the legal market.

I apologize if this post is harsh, and it's definitely not personal.

ETA: I have no idea if biglaw firms bill out their summers, but I can assure you that at least some midlaw firms do. It is at a much lower rate than attorney hours, and probably gets heavily written off, but (some) midlaw summers do produce revenue.

What's the summer compensation and the offer rate like at these mid law firms? for 1L -> 2L, and 2L -> full time?

I'm also thinking that your firm is the "biglaw" of the city you're in. Pretty sure OP specifically said "small" law firm.

I don't want to say what city my SA is in, but the firm has 30-40 lawyers, hires mostly 2l SAs (but an occasional 1L SA), has a high offer rate, and annual compensation of around 90k. There are about 20 such 2L positions in this city and about 5 such 1L positions.

It is absolutely not biglaw as each of these firms home office (and in almost every case only office) is in this city. The most of the firms are in the 20-40 lawyer range. The largest is 75 lawyers. Several of these firms have around 15 lawyers, which absolutely qualifies as a small law firm.

The US is a large place and there is a place for generalizations, but there are a lot of legal markets here each with their own characteristics. When I'm describing my home market that I will be working in, and you say that I must be describing biglaw, you are going right back to the false biglaw/shitlaw dichotomy I criticized in my last post.

[stannis]

"about 25 attorneys" and "courthouse filing" suggests small law to me and just by playing the odds that nature of the work is probably a lot closer to DUIs, divorces, estate planning, small lawsuits, etc. but maybe not I guess

But of course as always, any impotent rage directed at the hive is acknowledged and appreciated

Absolutely fair. This particular post is probably an imperfect example of the point I'm making (which I still absolutely stand by).

[PeanutsNJam]

I also realize that 1Ls generally don't get summer associate positions due to lack of experience.

1Ls "generally" don't get summer associate positions at big firms because these positions pay $2000-3000/week, and the firm gets no billables out of it. A summer associate at these firms also has a very great chance of automatically getting a 2L position, which gives a very great chance at a full-time offer. These are few in number and highly competitive for these reasons.

Smaller firms don't operate the same way. If they pay anything, it will be around $15/hr. These position also hold no guarantees of a second year offer, or a full time offer. As such, they are significantly less competitive. Regarding your chances, I'd say they are fairly decent so long as you perform well in your phone interview.

Avian is also right in that small firms are very idiosyncratic and can't be generalized.

This is bad information and is an example of the classic TLS "if it's not biglaw, it must be shitlaw" mentality.

There are a lot of firms, particularly in tertiary and secondary markets that are "small" by national standards (25-75 lawyers maybe), pay way more than $15 an hour, but a lot less than an annualized rate of $160k. Jobs at these firms are competitive and many of these firms recruit primarily from their SA classes (which may be 1-6 in size).

I go to a regional school and will be summering at such a firm, and so will about 15% of my classmates.

You very accurately described another subset of firms, which more people from schools like mine end up working at. That being said, there is a lot of legal work in between F500 mergers and Samsung/Apple patent wars on one hand, and divorces, DUIs, and estate plans on the other.

I have no idea if OP's firm is more like the midlaw firm I described or the small law firm you described, but you aren't doing him and others any favors by making gross, inaccurate generalizations about the legal market.

I apologize if this post is harsh, and it's definitely not personal.

ETA: I have no idea if biglaw firms bill out their summers, but I can assure you that at least some midlaw firms do. It is at a much lower rate than attorney hours, and probably gets heavily written off, but (some) midlaw summers do produce revenue.

What's the summer compensation and the offer rate like at these mid law firms? for 1L -> 2L, and 2L -> full time?

I'm also thinking that your firm is the "biglaw" of the city you're in. Pretty sure OP specifically said "small" law firm.

I don't want to say what city my SA is in, but the firm has 30-40 lawyers, hires mostly 2l SAs (but an occasional 1L SA), has a high offer rate, and annual compensation of around 90k. There are about 20 such 2L positions in this city and about 5 such 1L positions.

It is absolutely not biglaw as each of these firms home office (and in almost every case only office) is in this city. The most of the firms are in the 20-40 lawyer range. The largest is 75 lawyers. Several of these firms have around 15 lawyers, which absolutely qualifies as a small law firm.

The US is a large place and there is a place for generalizations, but there are a lot of legal markets here each with their own characteristics. When I'm describing my home market that I will be working in, and you say that I must be describing biglaw, you are going right back to the false biglaw/shitlaw dichotomy I criticized in my last post.

My assumption of small law is also based on the belief that any firms paying pro-rated 1st year salaries to their summers are done hiring. Congrats on making over 1k a week this summer, but any "law clerks" hired now are certainly not making anywhere near 1k a week.

I'm talking exclusively about summer associate positions. I don't know how you took that for me saying anything that isn't billion dollar M&A must be ambulance chasers.

[BigZuck]

I'm talking exclusively about summer associate positions. I don't know how you took that for me saying anything that isn't billion dollar M&A must be ambulance chasers.

impotent rage directed at the hive

But seriously I can see how Pea's post was probably too overbroad. Doesn't mean that the hive isn't well aware that decently paying small law or mid law technically exists and is attained by some freshly minted grads. It's just kind of a strange battle to fight here IMO.

I think the OP (and lurkers too!) would be well advised to know that lots of small firm jobs don't lead to anything. It's impossible to tell what will happen to the OP here but that's the main point: they are idiosyncratic. I would definitely temper my expectations with any small firm.