Any biglaw first years already bored and indifferent? Forum

[Anonymous User]

Count me in the "I'm doing better than most of my friends" camp. Although one scored academia straight out of his PhD, and he makes being a prof look like an absolute joke that still pays six figures.

Big law sucks really bad sometimes, but no more frequently than my previous low-paying career (I will admit that the sucky times are a little suckier, but I make over twice as much). I don't regret law school and I don't regret going to a big law firm. I like the people I work with and the incom. Other than that, it's a job, so of course I can't wait to stop doing it.

Although I'm not a first year, I can echo this sentiment. Most of my college peers are working for Big 4 accounting firms in NYC doing tax, audit, etc. and working 70-80+ hour weeks making less than half of what first year Biglaw associates make. Yeah, they have no debt, but I'd much prefer having $1500/month loan payments while making more than double what they make for the same or even better hours.

Biglaw is tough, but it's not all that bad (at least outside of NYC).

That is if you end up making that. You are forgetting that 80% of lawyers don't make that. That is a big IF.

[KM2016]

Count me in the "I'm doing better than most of my friends" camp. Although one scored academia straight out of his PhD, and he makes being a prof look like an absolute joke that still pays six figures.

Big law sucks really bad sometimes, but no more frequently than my previous low-paying career (I will admit that the sucky times are a little suckier, but I make over twice as much). I don't regret law school and I don't regret going to a big law firm. I like the people I work with and the incom. Other than that, it's a job, so of course I can't wait to stop doing it.

Although I'm not a first year, I can echo this sentiment. Most of my college peers are working for Big 4 accounting firms in NYC doing tax, audit, etc. and working 70-80+ hour weeks making less than half of what first year Biglaw associates make. Yeah, they have no debt, but I'd much prefer having $1500/month loan payments while making more than double what they make for the same or even better hours.

Biglaw is tough, but it's not all that bad (at least outside of NYC).

That is if you end up making that. You are forgetting that 80% of lawyers don't make that. That is a big IF.

Notice the thread is entitled "Any biglaw first years already bored and indifferent?" My comment is based on the premise we are working in biglaw, as the title suggests.

[Anonymous User]

Count me in the "I'm doing better than most of my friends" camp. Although one scored academia straight out of his PhD, and he makes being a prof look like an absolute joke that still pays six figures.

Big law sucks really bad sometimes, but no more frequently than my previous low-paying career (I will admit that the sucky times are a little suckier, but I make over twice as much). I don't regret law school and I don't regret going to a big law firm. I like the people I work with and the incom. Other than that, it's a job, so of course I can't wait to stop doing it.

Although I'm not a first year, I can echo this sentiment. Most of my college peers are working for Big 4 accounting firms in NYC doing tax, audit, etc. and working 70-80+ hour weeks making less than half of what first year Biglaw associates make. Yeah, they have no debt, but I'd much prefer having $1500/month loan payments while making more than double what they make for the same or even better hours.

Biglaw is tough, but it's not all that bad (at least outside of NYC).

That is if you end up making that. You are forgetting that 80% of lawyers don't make that. That is a big IF.

Notice the thread is entitled "Any biglaw first years already bored and indifferent?" My comment is based on the premise we are working in biglaw, as the title suggests.

"Although I'm not a first year."

[KM2016]

Count me in the "I'm doing better than most of my friends" camp. Although one scored academia straight out of his PhD, and he makes being a prof look like an absolute joke that still pays six figures.

Big law sucks really bad sometimes, but no more frequently than my previous low-paying career (I will admit that the sucky times are a little suckier, but I make over twice as much). I don't regret law school and I don't regret going to a big law firm. I like the people I work with and the incom. Other than that, it's a job, so of course I can't wait to stop doing it.

Although I'm not a first year, I can echo this sentiment. Most of my college peers are working for Big 4 accounting firms in NYC doing tax, audit, etc. and working 70-80+ hour weeks making less than half of what first year Biglaw associates make. Yeah, they have no debt, but I'd much prefer having $1500/month loan payments while making more than double what they make for the same or even better hours.

Biglaw is tough, but it's not all that bad (at least outside of NYC).

That is if you end up making that. You are forgetting that 80% of lawyers don't make that. That is a big IF.

Notice the thread is entitled "Any biglaw first years already bored and indifferent?" My comment is based on the premise we are working in biglaw, as the title suggests.

"Although I'm not a first year."

The conversation was regarding being better off in biglaw than college peers not in biglaw, so not sure why it matters that I'm not a first year. I'm pretty sure non-first years can still compare their lives to their college peers.

That being said, brave use of anon.

[Anonymous User]

Count me in the "I'm doing better than most of my friends" camp. Although one scored academia straight out of his PhD, and he makes being a prof look like an absolute joke that still pays six figures.

Big law sucks really bad sometimes, but no more frequently than my previous low-paying career (I will admit that the sucky times are a little suckier, but I make over twice as much). I don't regret law school and I don't regret going to a big law firm. I like the people I work with and the incom. Other than that, it's a job, so of course I can't wait to stop doing it.

Although I'm not a first year, I can echo this sentiment. Most of my college peers are working for Big 4 accounting firms in NYC doing tax, audit, etc. and working 70-80+ hour weeks making less than half of what first year Biglaw associates make. Yeah, they have no debt, but I'd much prefer having $1500/month loan payments while making more than double what they make for the same or even better hours.

Biglaw is tough, but it's not all that bad (at least outside of NYC).

That is if you end up making that. You are forgetting that 80% of lawyers don't make that. That is a big IF.

Notice the thread is entitled "Any biglaw first years already bored and indifferent?" My comment is based on the premise we are working in biglaw, as the title suggests.

"Although I'm not a first year."

The conversation was regarding being better off in biglaw than college peers not in biglaw, so not sure why it matters that I'm not a first year. I'm pretty sure non-first years can still compare their lives to their college peers.

That being said, brave use of anon.

I actually just clicked the button incorrectly- I am at work. Yeah but you, unlike your colleague, are taking on a massive risk in taking out student loans. I obviously don't know how much you have but I'd guess it is around 150-200k. Maybe that isn't the case and maybe that you have much less than that.

Either way, I'd rather have a job now making 60-80k, no student debt, than have a chance at having a job 3 years in the future, Opportunity costs of around 160-200k, and the real possibility of getting stuck doing doc review with massive debt hanging over your head, which is a real possibility.

[rawrpalooza]

Count me in the "I'm doing better than most of my friends" camp. Although one scored academia straight out of his PhD, and he makes being a prof look like an absolute joke that still pays six figures.

Big law sucks really bad sometimes, but no more frequently than my previous low-paying career (I will admit that the sucky times are a little suckier, but I make over twice as much). I don't regret law school and I don't regret going to a big law firm. I like the people I work with and the incom. Other than that, it's a job, so of course I can't wait to stop doing it.

Although I'm not a first year, I can echo this sentiment. Most of my college peers are working for Big 4 accounting firms in NYC doing tax, audit, etc. and working 70-80+ hour weeks making less than half of what first year Biglaw associates make. Yeah, they have no debt, but I'd much prefer having $1500/month loan payments while making more than double what they make for the same or even better hours.

Biglaw is tough, but it's not all that bad (at least outside of NYC).

That is if you end up making that. You are forgetting that 80% of lawyers don't make that. That is a big IF.

Notice the thread is entitled "Any biglaw first years already bored and indifferent?" My comment is based on the premise we are working in biglaw, as the title suggests.

"Although I'm not a first year."

lol why are people so randomly hostile on TLS

[Anonymous User]

Count me in the "I'm doing better than most of my friends" camp. Although one scored academia straight out of his PhD, and he makes being a prof look like an absolute joke that still pays six figures.

Big law sucks really bad sometimes, but no more frequently than my previous low-paying career (I will admit that the sucky times are a little suckier, but I make over twice as much). I don't regret law school and I don't regret going to a big law firm. I like the people I work with and the incom. Other than that, it's a job, so of course I can't wait to stop doing it.

Although I'm not a first year, I can echo this sentiment. Most of my college peers are working for Big 4 accounting firms in NYC doing tax, audit, etc. and working 70-80+ hour weeks making less than half of what first year Biglaw associates make. Yeah, they have no debt, but I'd much prefer having $1500/month loan payments while making more than double what they make for the same or even better hours.

Biglaw is tough, but it's not all that bad (at least outside of NYC).

That is if you end up making that. You are forgetting that 80% of lawyers don't make that. That is a big IF.

Notice the thread is entitled "Any biglaw first years already bored and indifferent?" My comment is based on the premise we are working in biglaw, as the title suggests.

"Although I'm not a first year."

lol why are people so randomly hostile on TLS

No hostility intended, I was reiterating where my comment was coming from, which was the fact he isn't a first year and therefore doesn't have a job yet.

[KM2016]

Count me in the "I'm doing better than most of my friends" camp. Although one scored academia straight out of his PhD, and he makes being a prof look like an absolute joke that still pays six figures.

Big law sucks really bad sometimes, but no more frequently than my previous low-paying career (I will admit that the sucky times are a little suckier, but I make over twice as much). I don't regret law school and I don't regret going to a big law firm. I like the people I work with and the incom. Other than that, it's a job, so of course I can't wait to stop doing it.

Although I'm not a first year, I can echo this sentiment. Most of my college peers are working for Big 4 accounting firms in NYC doing tax, audit, etc. and working 70-80+ hour weeks making less than half of what first year Biglaw associates make. Yeah, they have no debt, but I'd much prefer having $1500/month loan payments while making more than double what they make for the same or even better hours.

Biglaw is tough, but it's not all that bad (at least outside of NYC).

That is if you end up making that. You are forgetting that 80% of lawyers don't make that. That is a big IF.

Notice the thread is entitled "Any biglaw first years already bored and indifferent?" My comment is based on the premise we are working in biglaw, as the title suggests.

"Although I'm not a first year."

The conversation was regarding being better off in biglaw than college peers not in biglaw, so not sure why it matters that I'm not a first year. I'm pretty sure non-first years can still compare their lives to their college peers.

That being said, brave use of anon.

I actually just clicked the button incorrectly- I am at work. Yeah but you, unlike your colleague, are taking on a massive risk in taking out student loans. I obviously don't know how much you have but I'd guess it is around 150-200k. Maybe that isn't the case and maybe that you have much less than that.

Either way, I'd rather have a job now making 60-80k, no student debt, than have a chance at having a job 3 years in the future, Opportunity costs of around 160-200k, and the real possibility of getting stuck doing doc review with massive debt hanging over your head, which is a real possibility.

I'm a bit confused.

1) You're still posting as anonymous, so there's that.

2) I agree, I never said there isn't a risk going to law school and accumulating debt. I was simply saying, all things considered, I would prefer my biglaw salary with a manageable loan payment than working the same or worse hours making less than half the money. I'm not saying people should take on debt and go to law school, banking on getting a job in biglaw. Odds of getting a biglaw job are certainly stacked against most law school students. Getting the job aside, I'm simply speaking from my personal experience and saying that I am better off than my college peers that don't work in biglaw. Regardless, you're entitled to your opinion that having a job paying $60-$80k with no debt is preferable to biglaw, just as what I said was also simply an opinion.

[KM2016]

Count me in the "I'm doing better than most of my friends" camp. Although one scored academia straight out of his PhD, and he makes being a prof look like an absolute joke that still pays six figures.

Big law sucks really bad sometimes, but no more frequently than my previous low-paying career (I will admit that the sucky times are a little suckier, but I make over twice as much). I don't regret law school and I don't regret going to a big law firm. I like the people I work with and the incom. Other than that, it's a job, so of course I can't wait to stop doing it.

Although I'm not a first year, I can echo this sentiment. Most of my college peers are working for Big 4 accounting firms in NYC doing tax, audit, etc. and working 70-80+ hour weeks making less than half of what first year Biglaw associates make. Yeah, they have no debt, but I'd much prefer having $1500/month loan payments while making more than double what they make for the same or even better hours.

Biglaw is tough, but it's not all that bad (at least outside of NYC).

That is if you end up making that. You are forgetting that 80% of lawyers don't make that. That is a big IF.

Notice the thread is entitled "Any biglaw first years already bored and indifferent?" My comment is based on the premise we are working in biglaw, as the title suggests.

"Although I'm not a first year."

lol why are people so randomly hostile on TLS

No hostility intended, I was reiterating where my comment was coming from, which was the fact he isn't a first year and therefore doesn't have a job yet.

I think there was a miscommunication somewhere...I'm not a first year, but I do work in biglaw. Maybe you assumed I am a law student, but I'm a mid-level in biglaw.

[Anonymous User]

Ahh, I understand. My apologies. For me, it is just that huge risk where you are essentially on the hook for around 150-200k on average if you don't make it. And not everyone is going to make Biglaw. I'd never forgive myself if I ended up with 200k in debt working doc review.

[Anonymous User]

I've been out of college awhile (I've been practicing for a few years now), but let's think of my friends from undergrad - let's see, most of them were making six figures straight out of a top notch engineering program with no student debt, working generally good hours, high QOL. My friends who went into finance are making six figures, but also had no undergrad debt. The finance guys work similarly bad or better hours and probably have more marketable skills. But more importantly - pretty much none of my friends had any undergrad debt and many of them started off making low six figures straight out. None of them did "great" in UG (some of the engineers did downright awful), although yes, our UG had top ranked engineering/business programs.

As for me, when I graduated from law school, I had a shit load of law school debt. Ended up working worse hours on average than my friends, making "more" money but also had a shit load of debt that ate away at any extra income I had.

Now that I think about it, you're completely right - my friends from UG are in a much better place professionally and financially.

"most of your engineer friends" graduated UG (i) with no student debt and (ii) yet they were making six figures right out of undergrad??? this sounds like baloney. based on the fact that you've been practicing for a few years, let's assume that means you graduated UG in 2010 or 2011. First off, how did all your friends have no undergraduate debt? in this country, that's really quite unique. And second and more to the point, how did they all come out of school making almost twice the 2011 national average entry-level engineering salary--See http://www.cnn.com/2011/LIVING/06/06/pa ... .grads.cb/--especially if "none of them did 'great' in UG." I mean, even if we're talking about a tippy-top school like stanford, in 2010, the average stanford UG engineering grad came out making $69k. See http://web.archive.org/web/201008241737 ... lary-grads. if you want to discuss the relative merits of the two career paths, at least use some believable numbers.

anecdotally, i graduated in 2006 with top grades and an engineering degree from a highly ranked private school. i came out to a good engineering job in a high-tech field making $50k/year. and when I went back to law school in 2010, I was still making only ~$70k. fast forward 5 years (of law school and big law), and last year I took home $225k. look, big law obviously has some huge drawbacks. but c'mon with this idealization of STEM already. the only guy i can think of from my engineering class that went on to arguably bigger/better things also paid huge $$$ for an advanced degree, this one an MBA from Harvard.

[juzam_djinn]

I've already been accepted to a T14, which gives students much better than a 50% shot at Biglaw. I understand that some people do not like the hours, but all high-level fields (management consulting, investment banking, private equity, and Biglaw) require long hours. I just find it hard to believe that every person is miserable and people generally only accept Biglaw offers to pay off debt.

Its not so much the hours its the complete lack of control, the progression and the exit opportunities. I am a lawyer, there are days I love what I do but I also realize there are better ways to make a buck. I have some golden handcuffs and I just want others to avoid them. The below is overly cynical for effect.

- Management consulting - If you mean at MBB [if you don't, then just stop, you not a "management" consultant your just a temp worker who flies coach from Atlanta to Chattanooga], the pay is better the travel could be seen as a positive (saves you money + gets you points/miles you can use upon termination), they have a 401k match and they try to get you a gig when they up-and-out you after 4 years...and those gigs can be sweet compared to the in-house crap a 4th year associate usually lands.

- Investment banking - On a deal they are usually your boss. The client is paying them more, they get the $ or source the deal and they are the ones that get the zeros to line up. So yes, Chip, the 22 year old recent Duke UG, is telling you how the net working capital will be trued up at 3:00am. He hangs up, you get to work (thank god for law school). Further, if Chip survives IB hell he could land buyside (PE or Hedge Fund) and again be your boss (while making multiples of your firm's PPP), or if he just progresses at the IB (while making more then you), he can sh*t on you for the rest of your career when you work together (remember to bring up that 3:00am call when you get to take him to a Rangers game to "develop business"- he will love it -).

- Private equity - This is the financial worlds promised land. Most bulge bracket associates would sacrifice a child (yes, of course their own) for a spot at a mid-market shop. You call the shots, you raise the money, you collect the ungodly management fees. The upside is yours. Also, you get to drag PE lawyers from KE and Simpson around like well trained yellow labs (speaking of labs, remember to get 1 yellow and 1 brown for your winter house in Aspen - have them bark when doing Christmas day calls with your legal team who are sitting in a Manhattan conference room drafting and crying).

MBB doesn't pay more than biglaw; compensation is more or less comparable between the two industries. Also, MBB is at the top of the consulting industry...so comparing average biglaw pay with MBB pay seems problematic

the work/travel is also nowhere near as glamorous as people on TLS seem to make it out to be.

PE is, of course, great. The only people I know from my UG who are in PE right now though are ones who knew they wanted it since day 1 of college.

[juzam_djinn]

I've been out of college awhile (I've been practicing for a few years now), but let's think of my friends from undergrad - let's see, most of them were making six figures straight out of a top notch engineering program with no student debt, working generally good hours, high QOL. My friends who went into finance are making six figures, but also had no undergrad debt. The finance guys work similarly bad or better hours and probably have more marketable skills. But more importantly - pretty much none of my friends had any undergrad debt and many of them started off making low six figures straight out. None of them did "great" in UG (some of the engineers did downright awful), although yes, our UG had top ranked engineering/business programs.

As for me, when I graduated from law school, I had a shit load of law school debt. Ended up working worse hours on average than my friends, making "more" money but also had a shit load of debt that ate away at any extra income I had.

Now that I think about it, you're completely right - my friends from UG are in a much better place professionally and financially.

"most of your engineer friends" graduated UG (i) with no student debt and (ii) yet they were making six figures right out of undergrad??? this sounds like baloney. based on the fact that you've been practicing for a few years, let's assume that means you graduated UG in 2010 or 2011. First off, how did all your friends have no undergraduate debt? in this country, that's really quite unique. And second and more to the point, how did they all come out of school making almost twice the 2011 national average entry-level engineering salary--See http://www.cnn.com/2011/LIVING/06/06/pa ... .grads.cb/--especially if "none of them did 'great' in UG." I mean, even if we're talking about a tippy-top school like stanford, in 2010, the average stanford UG engineering grad came out making $69k. See http://web.archive.org/web/201008241737 ... lary-grads. if you want to discuss the relative merits of the two career paths, at least use some believable numbers.

anecdotally, i graduated in 2006 with top grades and an engineering degree from a highly ranked private school. i came out to a good engineering job in a high-tech field making $50k/year. and when I went back to law school in 2010, I was still making only ~$70k. fast forward 5 years (of law school and big law), and last year I took home $225k. look, big law obviously has some huge drawbacks. but c'mon with this idealization of STEM already. the only guy i can think of from my engineering class that went on to arguably bigger/better things also paid huge $$$ for an advanced degree, this one an MBA from Harvard.

agreed, STEM/consulting/finance envy is pervasive on this board, and it's extremely silly

I think all the people salivating over engineering are ones that think all engineers are software engineers working at google/facebook/amazon. yes, if you are good and lucky enough to get a SWE job at google out of college, you'll be making 6 figures your first year out with decent QOL. Engineering though, is a huge world. A small part of it is comp sci. A small part of comp sci students end up as software engineers (and not QA or systems, which usually aren't quite as well paid). A small group of software engineers go to top companies or sexy startups. STEM worshippers that blindly assert engineering is the way to go don't think about this.

[asdfdfdfadfas]

I'll provide an opposite elucidation of you guys. I want to note I am not complaining about this, it is what it is and it's partially my fault as I didn't have the highest GPA because i was so focused on beating the S&P500 and because I think a lot of academia is overly convoluted theories that aren't applicable to the real world. Anyways:

I graduated in 2010 from a state school with a double major in Finance and Economics, took all the hardest classes, had good investment returns managing the universities money and in all my fake stock market games for the school etc. I struggled to find real work other than temp jobs for three years and nearly went homeless once. Two years, where I wasn't just sitting there, I was literally 24/7 sending out resumes, busting ass, making phone calls, sending out e-mails, studying for the GMAT etc, having my car break down. etc.


I finally got a good job on a trade floor and was forced out for not being willing to sign off on a huge loss for a completely different market than I was working on. I arguably could have sued for unlawful termination as I sent an e-mail as a SOX inquiry to my manager first but it's an international company and I didn't have the capital to try to pursue it and all of the attorneys in my surrounding area had a "conflict of interest" so I said fuck it. I was also working 50+ hours a week, studying for the LSAT at night and in the morning, and it wasn't easy work. It was intense. The sad part is I did extremely good work for them- saved a lot of money in addition to what my job duties were.

So now I am 28, no debt, but literally have been unable to move my professional career forward in any meaningful way since undergrad, and have little saved up due to the time gap it took to try to find another job because HR is so difficult to deal with.


I think I would have been unequivocally better off doing literally ANYTHING else. I ended up just 6 months ago deciding to move in with my SO, took an Accounting job, and taking a few night classes to get my CPA to go tax because while my LSAT is in the 165-170 range and possibly good enough to sneak in some of the lower ranked schools on the t-14, I don't think it is good enough for money, so I don't want to be 200k in debt so I decided against it.

Law school may have been a better option'; however, I think for a lot of people who go and have to take on a lot of debt perhaps have simply prolonged "their day of reckoning" of joining the real world and trials and tribulations that come along with it.

just my thoughts. I think if you are making over 70k a year and are debt free, life is good.

[tyroneslothrop1]

I'll provide an opposite elucidation of you guys. I want to note I am not complaining about this, it is what it is and it's partially my fault as I didn't have the highest GPA because i was so focused on beating the S&P500 and because I think a lot of academia is overly convoluted theories that aren't applicable to the real world. Anyways:

I graduated in 2010 from a state school with a double major in Finance and Economics, took all the hardest classes, had good investment returns managing the universities money and in all my fake stock market games for the school etc. I struggled to find real work other than temp jobs for three years and nearly went homeless once. Two years, where I wasn't just sitting there, I was literally 24/7 sending out resumes, busting ass, making phone calls, sending out e-mails, studying for the GMAT etc, having my car break down. etc.


I finally got a good job on a trade floor and was forced out for not being willing to sign off on a huge loss for a completely different market than I was working on. I arguably could have sued for unlawful termination as I sent an e-mail as a SOX inquiry to my manager first but it's an international company and I didn't have the capital to try to pursue it and all of the attorneys in my surrounding area had a "conflict of interest" so I said fuck it. I was also working 50+ hours a week, studying for the LSAT at night and in the morning, and it wasn't easy work. It was intense. The sad part is I did extremely good work for them- saved a lot of money in addition to what my job duties were.

So now I am 28, no debt, but literally have been unable to move my professional career forward in any meaningful way since undergrad, and have little saved up due to the time gap it took to try to find another job because HR is so difficult to deal with.


I think I would have been unequivocally better off doing literally ANYTHING else. I ended up just 6 months ago deciding to move in with my SO, took an Accounting job, and taking a few night classes to get my CPA to go tax because while my LSAT is in the 165-170 range and possibly good enough to sneak in some of the lower ranked schools on the t-14, I don't think it is good enough for money, so I don't want to be 200k in debt so I decided against it.

Law school may have been a better option'; however, I think for a lot of people who go and have to take on a lot of debt perhaps have simply prolonged "their day of reckoning" of joining the real world and trials and tribulations that come along with it.

just my thoughts. I think if you are making over 70k a year and are debt free, life is good.

This is a bizarre story.

[zot1]

I'll provide an opposite elucidation of you guys. I want to note I am not complaining about this, it is what it is and it's partially my fault as I didn't have the highest GPA because i was so focused on beating the S&P500 and because I think a lot of academia is overly convoluted theories that aren't applicable to the real world. Anyways:

I graduated in 2010 from a state school with a double major in Finance and Economics, took all the hardest classes, had good investment returns managing the universities money and in all my fake stock market games for the school etc. I struggled to find real work other than temp jobs for three years and nearly went homeless once. Two years, where I wasn't just sitting there, I was literally 24/7 sending out resumes, busting ass, making phone calls, sending out e-mails, studying for the GMAT etc, having my car break down. etc.


I finally got a good job on a trade floor and was forced out for not being willing to sign off on a huge loss for a completely different market than I was working on. I arguably could have sued for unlawful termination as I sent an e-mail as a SOX inquiry to my manager first but it's an international company and I didn't have the capital to try to pursue it and all of the attorneys in my surrounding area had a "conflict of interest" so I said fuck it. I was also working 50+ hours a week, studying for the LSAT at night and in the morning, and it wasn't easy work. It was intense. The sad part is I did extremely good work for them- saved a lot of money in addition to what my job duties were.

So now I am 28, no debt, but literally have been unable to move my professional career forward in any meaningful way since undergrad, and have little saved up due to the time gap it took to try to find another job because HR is so difficult to deal with.


I think I would have been unequivocally better off doing literally ANYTHING else. I ended up just 6 months ago deciding to move in with my SO, took an Accounting job, and taking a few night classes to get my CPA to go tax because while my LSAT is in the 165-170 range and possibly good enough to sneak in some of the lower ranked schools on the t-14, I don't think it is good enough for money, so I don't want to be 200k in debt so I decided against it.

Law school may have been a better option'; however, I think for a lot of people who go and have to take on a lot of debt perhaps have simply prolonged "their day of reckoning" of joining the real world and trials and tribulations that come along with it.

just my thoughts. I think if you are making over 70k a year and are debt free, life is good.

This is a bizarre story.

Bizarre enough that it made me happy I went to law school.

[krads153]

I've been out of college awhile (I've been practicing for a few years now), but let's think of my friends from undergrad - let's see, most of them were making six figures straight out of a top notch engineering program with no student debt, working generally good hours, high QOL. My friends who went into finance are making six figures, but also had no undergrad debt. The finance guys work similarly bad or better hours and probably have more marketable skills. But more importantly - pretty much none of my friends had any undergrad debt and many of them started off making low six figures straight out. None of them did "great" in UG (some of the engineers did downright awful), although yes, our UG had top ranked engineering/business programs.

As for me, when I graduated from law school, I had a shit load of law school debt. Ended up working worse hours on average than my friends, making "more" money but also had a shit load of debt that ate away at any extra income I had.

Now that I think about it, you're completely right - my friends from UG are in a much better place professionally and financially.

"most of your engineer friends" graduated UG (i) with no student debt and (ii) yet they were making six figures right out of undergrad??? this sounds like baloney. based on the fact that you've been practicing for a few years, let's assume that means you graduated UG in 2010 or 2011. First off, how did all your friends have no undergraduate debt? in this country, that's really quite unique. And second and more to the point, how did they all come out of school making almost twice the 2011 national average entry-level engineering salary--See http://www.cnn.com/2011/LIVING/06/06/pa ... .grads.cb/--especially if "none of them did 'great' in UG." I mean, even if we're talking about a tippy-top school like stanford, in 2010, the average stanford UG engineering grad came out making $69k. See http://web.archive.org/web/201008241737 ... lary-grads. if you want to discuss the relative merits of the two career paths, at least use some believable numbers.

anecdotally, i graduated in 2006 with top grades and an engineering degree from a highly ranked private school. i came out to a good engineering job in a high-tech field making $50k/year. and when I went back to law school in 2010, I was still making only ~$70k. fast forward 5 years (of law school and big law), and last year I took home $225k. look, big law obviously has some huge drawbacks. but c'mon with this idealization of STEM already. the only guy i can think of from my engineering class that went on to arguably bigger/better things also paid huge $$$ for an advanced degree, this one an MBA from Harvard.

Most of my friends ended up at google, etc. It is a tippy top engineering program though (like ranked somewhere between 1 and 3 in USNews for both undergrad and grad engineering), so you can probably figure out what school it is on your own. So yeah, I guess it is a "tippy top" school with great, much above average engineering placement. Also, I am talking about COMP SCI/COMP engineers, not bullshit mechanical engineers or whatever they call "engineers" these days. And yes, averaging six figure starting salaries with a real engineering degree (computer engineering)/comp sci degree is not unusual.

Our parents paid for undergrad and/or they got scholly/financial aid. Pretty much all of us had full rides to a bunch of other schools and would have gone there if parents weren't paying and/or we didn't get full funding. If you are getting into debt for undergrad, you're doing it wrong.

[SplitMyPants]

any fresh-out engineer making six figures in silicon valley is not working "normal" hours...

[krads153]

agreed, STEM/consulting/finance envy is pervasive on this board, and it's extremely silly

I think all the people salivating over engineering are ones that think all engineers are software engineers working at google/facebook/amazon. yes, if you are good and lucky enough to get a SWE job at google out of college, you'll be making 6 figures your first year out with decent QOL. Engineering though, is a huge world. A small part of it is comp sci. A small part of comp sci students end up as software engineers (and not QA or systems, which usually aren't quite as well paid). A small group of software engineers go to top companies or sexy startups. STEM worshippers that blindly assert engineering is the way to go don't think about this.

[krads153]

any fresh-out engineer making six figures in silicon valley is not working "normal" hours...

Still better than biglaw....

[juzam_djinn]

I've been out of college awhile (I've been practicing for a few years now), but let's think of my friends from undergrad - let's see, most of them were making six figures straight out of a top notch engineering program with no student debt, working generally good hours, high QOL. My friends who went into finance are making six figures, but also had no undergrad debt. The finance guys work similarly bad or better hours and probably have more marketable skills. But more importantly - pretty much none of my friends had any undergrad debt and many of them started off making low six figures straight out. None of them did "great" in UG (some of the engineers did downright awful), although yes, our UG had top ranked engineering/business programs.

As for me, when I graduated from law school, I had a shit load of law school debt. Ended up working worse hours on average than my friends, making "more" money but also had a shit load of debt that ate away at any extra income I had.

Now that I think about it, you're completely right - my friends from UG are in a much better place professionally and financially.

"most of your engineer friends" graduated UG (i) with no student debt and (ii) yet they were making six figures right out of undergrad??? this sounds like baloney. based on the fact that you've been practicing for a few years, let's assume that means you graduated UG in 2010 or 2011. First off, how did all your friends have no undergraduate debt? in this country, that's really quite unique. And second and more to the point, how did they all come out of school making almost twice the 2011 national average entry-level engineering salary--See http://www.cnn.com/2011/LIVING/06/06/pa ... .grads.cb/--especially if "none of them did 'great' in UG." I mean, even if we're talking about a tippy-top school like stanford, in 2010, the average stanford UG engineering grad came out making $69k. See http://web.archive.org/web/201008241737 ... lary-grads. if you want to discuss the relative merits of the two career paths, at least use some believable numbers.

anecdotally, i graduated in 2006 with top grades and an engineering degree from a highly ranked private school. i came out to a good engineering job in a high-tech field making $50k/year. and when I went back to law school in 2010, I was still making only ~$70k. fast forward 5 years (of law school and big law), and last year I took home $225k. look, big law obviously has some huge drawbacks. but c'mon with this idealization of STEM already. the only guy i can think of from my engineering class that went on to arguably bigger/better things also paid huge $$$ for an advanced degree, this one an MBA from Harvard.

Most of my friends ended up at google, etc. It is a tippy top engineering program though (like ranked somewhere between 1 and 3 in USNews for both undergrad and grad engineering), so you can probably figure out what school it is on your own. So yeah, I guess it is a "tippy top" school with great, much above average engineering placement. Also, I am talking about COMP SCI/COMP engineers, not bullshit mechanical engineers or whatever they call "engineers" these days. And yes, averaging six figure starting salaries with a real engineering degree (computer engineering)/comp sci degree is not unusual.

Our parents paid for undergrad and/or they got scholly/financial aid. Pretty much all of us had full rides to a bunch of other schools and would have gone there if parents weren't paying and/or we didn't get full funding. If you are getting into debt for undergrad, you're doing it wrong.

lol kid, please tell me you at least did a STEM major? even then, any credibility you might have had has gone out the window. the fact that you'd try to place CS above ME or other types of engineers (EE, Chem E, BME) is ridiculous. you do know that most of us engineers (including those of us who graduated from the best eng schools in the world) think of CS as one of the less conceptually difficult of the engineering disciplines, right?

[krads153]

I've been out of college awhile (I've been practicing for a few years now), but let's think of my friends from undergrad - let's see, most of them were making six figures straight out of a top notch engineering program with no student debt, working generally good hours, high QOL. My friends who went into finance are making six figures, but also had no undergrad debt. The finance guys work similarly bad or better hours and probably have more marketable skills. But more importantly - pretty much none of my friends had any undergrad debt and many of them started off making low six figures straight out. None of them did "great" in UG (some of the engineers did downright awful), although yes, our UG had top ranked engineering/business programs.

As for me, when I graduated from law school, I had a shit load of law school debt. Ended up working worse hours on average than my friends, making "more" money but also had a shit load of debt that ate away at any extra income I had.

Now that I think about it, you're completely right - my friends from UG are in a much better place professionally and financially.

"most of your engineer friends" graduated UG (i) with no student debt and (ii) yet they were making six figures right out of undergrad??? this sounds like baloney. based on the fact that you've been practicing for a few years, let's assume that means you graduated UG in 2010 or 2011. First off, how did all your friends have no undergraduate debt? in this country, that's really quite unique. And second and more to the point, how did they all come out of school making almost twice the 2011 national average entry-level engineering salary--See http://www.cnn.com/2011/LIVING/06/06/pa ... .grads.cb/--especially if "none of them did 'great' in UG." I mean, even if we're talking about a tippy-top school like stanford, in 2010, the average stanford UG engineering grad came out making $69k. See http://web.archive.org/web/201008241737 ... lary-grads. if you want to discuss the relative merits of the two career paths, at least use some believable numbers.

anecdotally, i graduated in 2006 with top grades and an engineering degree from a highly ranked private school. i came out to a good engineering job in a high-tech field making $50k/year. and when I went back to law school in 2010, I was still making only ~$70k. fast forward 5 years (of law school and big law), and last year I took home $225k. look, big law obviously has some huge drawbacks. but c'mon with this idealization of STEM already. the only guy i can think of from my engineering class that went on to arguably bigger/better things also paid huge $$$ for an advanced degree, this one an MBA from Harvard.

Most of my friends ended up at google, etc. It is a tippy top engineering program though (like ranked somewhere between 1 and 3 in USNews for both undergrad and grad engineering), so you can probably figure out what school it is on your own. So yeah, I guess it is a "tippy top" school with great, much above average engineering placement. Also, I am talking about COMP SCI/COMP engineers, not bullshit mechanical engineers or whatever they call "engineers" these days. And yes, averaging six figure starting salaries with a real engineering degree (computer engineering)/comp sci degree is not unusual.

Our parents paid for undergrad and/or they got scholly/financial aid. Pretty much all of us had full rides to a bunch of other schools and would have gone there if parents weren't paying and/or we didn't get full funding. If you are getting into debt for undergrad, you're doing it wrong.

lol kid, please tell me you at least did a STEM major? even then, any credibility you might have had has gone out the window. the fact that you'd try to place CS above ME or other types of engineers (EE, Chem E, BME) is ridiculous. you do know that most of us engineers (including those of us who graduated from the best eng schools in the world) think of CS as one of the less conceptually difficult of the engineering disciplines, right?

It goes something like CHem E> EE/CS > CS >>>>Rest .

In terms of employability it's like EE/CS/CS > Chem E>>>>>>>>>>>>> Rest

[juzam_djinn]

I've been out of college awhile (I've been practicing for a few years now), but let's think of my friends from undergrad - let's see, most of them were making six figures straight out of a top notch engineering program with no student debt, working generally good hours, high QOL. My friends who went into finance are making six figures, but also had no undergrad debt. The finance guys work similarly bad or better hours and probably have more marketable skills. But more importantly - pretty much none of my friends had any undergrad debt and many of them started off making low six figures straight out. None of them did "great" in UG (some of the engineers did downright awful), although yes, our UG had top ranked engineering/business programs.

As for me, when I graduated from law school, I had a shit load of law school debt. Ended up working worse hours on average than my friends, making "more" money but also had a shit load of debt that ate away at any extra income I had.

Now that I think about it, you're completely right - my friends from UG are in a much better place professionally and financially.

"most of your engineer friends" graduated UG (i) with no student debt and (ii) yet they were making six figures right out of undergrad??? this sounds like baloney. based on the fact that you've been practicing for a few years, let's assume that means you graduated UG in 2010 or 2011. First off, how did all your friends have no undergraduate debt? in this country, that's really quite unique. And second and more to the point, how did they all come out of school making almost twice the 2011 national average entry-level engineering salary--See http://www.cnn.com/2011/LIVING/06/06/pa ... .grads.cb/--especially if "none of them did 'great' in UG." I mean, even if we're talking about a tippy-top school like stanford, in 2010, the average stanford UG engineering grad came out making $69k. See http://web.archive.org/web/201008241737 ... lary-grads. if you want to discuss the relative merits of the two career paths, at least use some believable numbers.

anecdotally, i graduated in 2006 with top grades and an engineering degree from a highly ranked private school. i came out to a good engineering job in a high-tech field making $50k/year. and when I went back to law school in 2010, I was still making only ~$70k. fast forward 5 years (of law school and big law), and last year I took home $225k. look, big law obviously has some huge drawbacks. but c'mon with this idealization of STEM already. the only guy i can think of from my engineering class that went on to arguably bigger/better things also paid huge $$$ for an advanced degree, this one an MBA from Harvard.

Most of my friends ended up at google, etc. It is a tippy top engineering program though (like ranked somewhere between 1 and 3 in USNews for both undergrad and grad engineering), so you can probably figure out what school it is on your own. So yeah, I guess it is a "tippy top" school with great, much above average engineering placement. Also, I am talking about COMP SCI/COMP engineers, not bullshit mechanical engineers or whatever they call "engineers" these days. And yes, averaging six figure starting salaries with a real engineering degree (computer engineering)/comp sci degree is not unusual.

Our parents paid for undergrad and/or they got scholly/financial aid. Pretty much all of us had full rides to a bunch of other schools and would have gone there if parents weren't paying and/or we didn't get full funding. If you are getting into debt for undergrad, you're doing it wrong.

lol kid, please tell me you at least did a STEM major? even then, any credibility you might have had has gone out the window. the fact that you'd try to place CS above ME or other types of engineers (EE, Chem E, BME) is ridiculous. you do know that most of us engineers (including those of us who graduated from the best eng schools in the world) think of CS as one of the less conceptually difficult of the engineering disciplines, right?

I did math, so a useless STEM major.

It goes something like CHem E> EE/CS > CS >>>>Rest .

In terms of employability it's like EE/CS/CS > Chem E>>>>>>>>>>>>> Rest

for employability, it's obviously CS> EE > rest. For rigor/conceptual difficulty, it's EE/ChemE > rest. Makes no sense to think ME is not a "real" engineering discipline, esp. compared to CS.

[PeanutsNJam]

any fresh-out engineer making six figures in silicon valley is not working "normal" hours...

Still better than biglaw....

They make less than 160k (starting is 140k now I think) in a city that is the single highest CoL place in the US (higher than NYC). They work comparably long hours. The only difference is they didn't need to go to law school, but if you went to law school on a scholarship (not hard), I'd say it seems fairly even.

Also the magic PE gigs (Blackstone Group I'm guessing) where you have 5 models giving you head throughout the day while you take literal shits on lawyers and rake in $500k starting are astronomically harder to get than biglaw. (# of sexy PE jobs)/(# of prestigious UG with finance majors + business school grads). Like, sure, being an astronaut is better than biglaw.

[1styearlateral]

where you have 5 models giving you head throughout the day while you take literal shits on lawyers and rake in $500k starting

Sign me up.