Did you go into BigLaw thinking it would be better for you? Forum

[zot1]

Based on recent comments I see here on how people believe that the people complaining about BigLaw are either outliers or just can't handle the work, I'm curious about this. Did you read or learn about the "evils" of BigLaw, think it would be better for you somehow, then once you become an associate, it wasn't?

Thanks.

[bruinfan10]

wait, people don't all go into biglaw with both eyes open now? like, the ridiculously transparent SA smokescreen actually tricks some people irl?

[Anonymous User]

I kind of did. I worked 10-11 hours every day as a summer and thought that it wasn't too bad and wouldn't be that bad when I got there. These hours also put me in the office more than the average associate. I figured that I could do these hours and that things weren't so bad here. Also, I purposely went to a secondary market for a better QOL. I get here and realize that most associates work like 12-13 hours a day. And a lot of work is done from home at night and or on the weekends. I did not appreciate this as a summer. Also, I did not know that it would be so hard to get a steady steam of work in a free market. As a summer I always had the right amount of work to work 8-10 hours a day. These days I could work a 14 hour day, then have nothing to do the next day. Also, of course, everyone is nicer to you when you're summer.

[monsterman]

I kind of did. I worked 10-11 hours every day as a summer and thought that it wasn't too bad and wouldn't be that bad when I got there. These hours also put me in the office more than the average associate. I figured that I could do these hours and that things weren't so bad here. Also, I purposely went to a secondary market for a better QOL. I get here and realize that most associates work like 12-13 hours a day. And a lot of work is done from home at night and or on the weekends. I did not appreciate this as a summer. Also, I did not know that it would be so hard to get a steady steam of work in a free market. As a summer I always had the right amount of work to work 8-10 hours a day. These days I could work a 14 hour day, then have nothing to do the next day. Also, of course, everyone is nicer to you when you're summer.

Mind saying which secondary market you are referring to?

[zot1]

wait, people don't all go into biglaw with both eyes open now? like, the ridiculously transparent SA smokescreen actually tricks some people irl?

I have read way too many posts from prospective and current students, who may or may not have done an SA yet, who legitimately believe that what they read/learn about BigLaw's issues won't necessarily apply to them.

I started this thread to see how common that sentiment was for people who are now associates and arguably know better.

I have to admit even I am surprised at the responses.

[nealric]

Based on recent comments I see here on how people believe that the people complaining about BigLaw are either outliers or just can't handle the work, I'm curious about this. Did you read or learn about the "evils" of BigLaw, think it would be better for you somehow, then once you become an associate, it wasn't?

Thanks.

I was fully expecting to be made miserable and was pleasantly surprised that it wasn't so bad. The hours were more than I wanted but not more than I could handle. Never really had to cancel trips or any of that cliche biglaw stuff. Being a summer was actually worse for me than being an associate due to summering in the great no-offer summer of '09.

I got out simply because I was relocating anyways and got a great non-biglaw offer.

[zot1]

Based on recent comments I see here on how people believe that the people complaining about BigLaw are either outliers or just can't handle the work, I'm curious about this. Did you read or learn about the "evils" of BigLaw, think it would be better for you somehow, then once you become an associate, it wasn't?

Thanks.

I was fully expecting to be made miserable and was pleasantly surprised that it wasn't so bad. The hours were more than I wanted but not more than I could handle. Never really had to cancel trips or any of that cliche biglaw stuff. Being a summer was actually worse for me than being an associate due to summering in the great no-offer summer of '09.

I got out simply because I was relocating anyways and got a great non-biglaw offer.

Thanks for sharing.

Do you feel like your experience was more the norm or the exception compared to your peers?

What kind of market were you in?

Practice group?

At what point did you leave? (2 years? 3?)

[nealric]

Based on recent comments I see here on how people believe that the people complaining about BigLaw are either outliers or just can't handle the work, I'm curious about this. Did you read or learn about the "evils" of BigLaw, think it would be better for you somehow, then once you become an associate, it wasn't?

Thanks.

I was fully expecting to be made miserable and was pleasantly surprised that it wasn't so bad. The hours were more than I wanted but not more than I could handle. Never really had to cancel trips or any of that cliche biglaw stuff. Being a summer was actually worse for me than being an associate due to summering in the great no-offer summer of '09.

I got out simply because I was relocating anyways and got a great non-biglaw offer.

Thanks for sharing.

Do you feel like your experience was more the norm or the exception compared to your peers?

What kind of market were you in?

Practice group?

At what point did you leave? (2 years? 3?)

NYC V100 Tax. I think my experience was fairly normal for my firm (not just Tax). Left at the end of year 3.

[Anonymous User]

I kind of did. I worked 10-11 hours every day as a summer and thought that it wasn't too bad and wouldn't be that bad when I got there. These hours also put me in the office more than the average associate. I figured that I could do these hours and that things weren't so bad here. Also, I purposely went to a secondary market for a better QOL. I get here and realize that most associates work like 12-13 hours a day. And a lot of work is done from home at night and or on the weekends. I did not appreciate this as a summer. Also, I did not know that it would be so hard to get a steady steam of work in a free market. As a summer I always had the right amount of work to work 8-10 hours a day. These days I could work a 14 hour day, then have nothing to do the next day. Also, of course, everyone is nicer to you when you're summer.

This was true for me re: summer associate position. I thought I was killing it by working 8:30am-7:30pm and billing 8-10 daily. Little did I know that associates doing 9-6 were also working from 8pm-midnight too.

In general though, I think big law is still pretty decent compared to other jobs.

[TLSModBot]

I guess it depends on what you mean by "better" - I fully expect to do the same kind of grueling/tedious/boring work as others, and work the same kind of long unpredictable hours. I do think I can tolerate it better than some given that I've had prior legal work experience that occasionally involved 70+ hour weeks (as opposed to being K-JD, I'm saying, not that my work experience is really comparable to BigLaw).

But then again I'm a 3L so I get the sense I don't really know what I'm in for til I'm in it.

[Gatriel]

Biglaw is a shitton of work, I think this goes without saying.

However, if you enjoy the subject matter you are working on, and have a lot of highly motivated people in your team, and your superiors are highly motivated, then I think the immense amount of work isn't that bad.

I think the biggest problems with Biglawl attorneys are two fold;

1) They suffer from special snowflake syndrome. If the partner asks you to do some marketing work, just fucking do it and don'T complain. You make more than 98% of the American population. STFU and fill out that form for Vault. Those that want to be in the middle of a ton of high-level shit from day 1 will be in for a rude awakening, and if they cannot swallow their pride will not survive.

--or--

2) They don't enjoy the subject matter they are working on. These people I feel really bad for. They are clearly intelligent, motivated & hard working individuals, but at the end of the day drafting a prospects or an inter creditor agreement just isn't their cup of tea. If these people cannot get in the right department in the first year or two, they are screwed as motivation plummets through the floor, and they are competing against individuals who do enjoy the work.

I enjoy biglaw because I enjoy the material I am working on. Sometimes it sucks and you want to jump out the window, but when your name gets published in league tables and you close a deal and the printer takes you out for a booze cruise, and then the client the night thereafter ... its worth it.

[Anonymous User]

^^^And if you're wondering what kind of people enjoy biglaw, it's the kind of people who think it's worth it to forego their personal lives and health to be mentioned as a sidenote to a transaction posted on website you've never heard of. Especially capital markets deals. At least there are a handful of M&A guys the average WSJ reader has heard of (and I say this as a cap markets lawyer).

I thought it'd be bad and it's been worse. I think a lot of law students go through the summer and go through a phase where they convince themselves it won't be so bad. I never did, but thought it'd at least be worth it. The complete loss of control over any facet of my life was what I didn't expect.

[whysoseriousbiglaw]

^^^And if you're wondering what kind of people enjoy biglaw, it's the kind of people who think it's worth it to forego their personal lives and health to be mentioned as a sidenote to a transaction posted on website you've never heard of. Especially capital markets deals. At least there are a handful of M&A guys the average WSJ reader has heard of (and I say this as a cap markets lawyer).

I thought it'd be bad and it's been worse. I think a lot of law students go through the summer and go through a phase where they convince themselves it won't be so bad. I never did, but thought it'd at least be worth it. The complete loss of control over any facet of my life was what I didn't expect.

Yep, exactly. Also nobody IRL gives a shit if you worked on some deal except other people like that, which is a small subset of the population.

I really don't get people who enjoy biglaw work...it's sooooo boring and often just mindless/detail oriented, rather than requiring much thought. I'd much rather be say a criminal lawyer or even personal injury attorney if we're talking about the substance of the work.

[whysoseriousbiglaw]

Also, considering a lot of biglaw attorneys live in places like NYC, DC, etc., the money really isn't that great. Making 160k in NYC is like making 60k in flyover....except you have to work a lot more in NYC.

I don't get people who think biglaw pays a lot in places like NYC/DC, unless they grew up in a trailer park or something.

[Lexaholik]

I spent a few years in Biglaw and it was just as bad as I expected.

Many years ago when I decided to go to law school, I knew Biglaw would be part of my long term plan. It wasn't my end goal but I planned to spend at least two years there to get experience, pay down debt and save up some money. I read up everything I could about Biglaw since I'd heard it was bad. (Back then there wasn't that much information on TLS, and you had to really dig through the hundreds of terrible Autoadmit threads to find the gems.) So I guess what I'm saying is, I went into it with eyes wide open.

When I did it, it was just as bad as I expected. A big part of whether you'll end up thinking Biglaw is okay (like the poster above who said something about your deal being mentioned in the WSJ making it worth it) depends on your personality and what you want out of life. If you asked me at 22 if I wanted to wear a suit to work, earn a high income, work on big cases, and have a prestigious employer, I would have said "hell yeah where do you sign me up." If you asked me again at 32, I would say "hell no."

That's kind of what these forums don't really get at. Most people will say Biglaw is bad but it's not really because of the job. It's because many of us have no business in a Biglaw type of job. We may be qualified in terms of school/grades/credentials, but we don't have the temperament. The people who do belong in Biglaw (and find it odd that everyone complains about it) all have a very specific, very distinct type of personality. It's someone who values doing detail oriented work, is okay with being responsive on e-mail 24x7, and finds meaningful being part of a team that works on the biggest cases and deals. It's not for the type of person who values their autonomy, wants to do creative work, or prioritizes their family/friends. If you're not sure if Biglaw's you--that's okay--you should try it out and get paid $160k per year to see if you fit in. When you've been at the office past midnight for weeks with no end in sight, that's when you'll truly know whether you have the Biglaw temperament.

[El Pollito]

Biglaw is a shitton of work, I think this goes without saying.

However, if you enjoy the subject matter you are working on, and have a lot of highly motivated people in your team, and your superiors are highly motivated, then I think the immense amount of work isn't that bad.

I think the biggest problems with Biglawl attorneys are two fold;

1) They suffer from special snowflake syndrome. If the partner asks you to do some marketing work, just fucking do it and don'T complain. You make more than 98% of the American population. STFU and fill out that form for Vault. Those that want to be in the middle of a ton of high-level shit from day 1 will be in for a rude awakening, and if they cannot swallow their pride will not survive.

--or--

2) They don't enjoy the subject matter they are working on. These people I feel really bad for. They are clearly intelligent, motivated & hard working individuals, but at the end of the day drafting a prospects or an inter creditor agreement just isn't their cup of tea. If these people cannot get in the right department in the first year or two, they are screwed as motivation plummets through the floor, and they are competing against individuals who do enjoy the work.

I enjoy biglaw because I enjoy the material I am working on. Sometimes it sucks and you want to jump out the window, but when your name gets published in league tables and you close a deal and the printer takes you out for a booze cruise, and then the client the night thereafter ... its worth it.

aren't you not in the US? if so, your biglaw experience is likely easier than everyone else's

[Anonymous User]

I knew coming in biglaw would have miserable hours, little flexibility, and lots of unpredictability. So although it's to a degree I didn't anticipate, I don't think that really made it that much worse than I thought it would be going in.

What made it worse than I was expecting was the mind numbingly boring aspect of it. A few years ago everyone talked about doc review as if it were the pinnacle of drudgery. IMO doc review is positively delightful compared to detailing why opposing counsel has provided deficient discovery responses to all 60 of our RFAs or responding to their 200 frivolous objections to our motion. It's also a lot harder to avoid the toxic people in a given firm than it's made out to be (and these people make up a disproportionate share of senior associates and active service partners).

[Anonymous User]

^^^Not to mention that more "substantive" work turns out to be much worse. I'd rather do diligence all day than constantly fielding calls from clients and being put on the spot to perform.

[El Pollito]

I thought it would be worse, but I like my practice group and the people I work with.

[patentlitigatrix]

I thought it would be worse, but I like my practice group and the people I work with.

+1. I sort ended up at a biglaw firm sort of by accident. I thought I wanted to go to a prosecution boutique, or do something unrelated to engineering like be a PD or immigration law. But I did OCI anyways. But I sort of liked these people I interviewed with at my firm, and the money was good, so I figured I'd give it a shot. I was expecting to hate the work, and particularly hate the people. But I have been pleasantly surprised on both fronts. My hours are less than I expected, and I have more flexibility than I expected. Hoping to stay at this firm until it is time for retirement. That being said, I don't think most biglaw firms would be a great fit for me at all.

[Anonymous User]

Biglaw is a shitton of work, I think this goes without saying.

However, if you enjoy the subject matter you are working on, and have a lot of highly motivated people in your team, and your superiors are highly motivated, then I think the immense amount of work isn't that bad.

I think the biggest problems with Biglawl attorneys are two fold;

1) They suffer from special snowflake syndrome. If the partner asks you to do some marketing work, just fucking do it and don'T complain. You make more than 98% of the American population. STFU and fill out that form for Vault. Those that want to be in the middle of a ton of high-level shit from day 1 will be in for a rude awakening, and if they cannot swallow their pride will not survive.

--or--

2) They don't enjoy the subject matter they are working on. These people I feel really bad for. They are clearly intelligent, motivated & hard working individuals, but at the end of the day drafting a prospects or an inter creditor agreement just isn't their cup of tea. If these people cannot get in the right department in the first year or two, they are screwed as motivation plummets through the floor, and they are competing against individuals who do enjoy the work.

I enjoy biglaw because I enjoy the material I am working on. Sometimes it sucks and you want to jump out the window, but when your name gets published in league tables and you close a deal and the printer takes you out for a booze cruise, and then the client the night thereafter ... its worth it.

aren't you not in the US? if so, your biglaw experience is likely easier than everyone else's

still only a student but biglaw in the us seems like heaven compared to biglaw in certain countries. at least senior associates in the us don't pressure you into going out for soju after work at 2am on a random weekday.

[zot1]

Please only comment if you have actually BigLaw experience. I created this thread to help students and 0Ls. Misinformation by those who haven't actually practiced isn't in any way helpful. Thanks.

[Anonymous User]

I knew working in biglaw was going to be hard, but I didn't really know how miserable it would actually be until I was delirious from staying up nights in a row and then having to deal with toxic seniors. There are many aspects that I just didn't know/understand before deciding on biglaw (how stressful not having enough work in slow times can be, how much it physically hurts to stay up late night after night after night, how uncomfortable it is for me to suck up to partners/seniors who are very socially awkward etc.).

With that said I don't regret going to biglaw. Partly was because I didn't really know what other options I would have, so it's not like I have something to be regretting about. It's also because it gave me things I wanted like bringing me to a city I couldn't have gotten jobs otherwise because I had no ties and letting me save up a nice nest for my family's mortgage. When i feel like I have gotten all I can out of this job while reaching the maximum amount of pain I can withstand, I'll leave.

[whysoseriousbiglaw]

^ I feel like a lot of seniors can stand working day after day with only 4 hours of sleep a night...biglaw is tough for people who need time to unwind and/or a regular's night sleep.

Also most senior associates and junior service partners are legitimately crazy IMO.

[skers]

Easily the biggest problem in big law for me is poor team management. Work is a complete 180 depending on who you are staffed with.