Realistic Salary Trajectory of a PD Forum

Anonymous User · Post by **Anonymous User** » Tue Mar 15, 2016 3:34 pm

wondering about the potential $$$ to be made for lifelong PDs. I realize people don't become PDs for the $$ and salaries will never equate to firm salaries and I know the starting salaries are always on the lower end - though I'm wondering what the raises are like/do they exist? I'm sure it varies widely by office but if by, lets say, your 10th year as a PD, are you making near 6 figures by that point?

GreenEggs · Post by **GreenEggs** » Tue Mar 15, 2016 3:35 pm

It matters hugely by office...

CA PDs are state employees I'm told, and they make 6 figures before year 10, plus all there benefits

Anonymous User · Post by **Anonymous User** » Tue Mar 15, 2016 4:41 pm

"It matters hugely by office..."

This. I went to law school in the deep south and now work in a liberal state in the Midwest. PD friends working in my law school state started in the low to mid 30s, and PDs in my current state start in the upper 50s. I'm not sure what the salary trajectories look like down south, but PDs can expect to reach the upper 80s in my current state (which is huge when you consider the relatively low COL, benefits, loan cancellation, etc.)

CaptainLeela · Post by **CaptainLeela** » Tue Mar 15, 2016 4:44 pm

Welcome to TLS

curious bobcat · Post by **curious bobcat** » Tue Mar 15, 2016 5:03 pm

As everybody else said, it varies by location. But I'll throw in my anecdata. I've talked to PDs in two different major cities:

Philly: Started at $48.5, after 5 years this PD is at $60. I've been told that supervisors and veterans here are making in the low $100
Boston: Started at $40, after 2 years this PD is at $46.

USA has the $$$, so Federal PDs uniformly make a lot more. I have read that Fed PDs in San Fran. can make above $200.

The PD gunner thread in the Legal Employment section will probably have more info, at least about starting salaries.

Teoeo · Post by **Teoeo** » Tue Mar 15, 2016 5:14 pm

Anonymous User wrote:wondering about the potential $$$ to be made for lifelong PDs. I realize people don't become PDs for the $$ and salaries will never equate to firm salaries and I know the starting salaries are always on the lower end - though I'm wondering what the raises are like/do they exist? I'm sure it varies widely by office but if by, lets say, your 10th year as a PD, are you making near 6 figures by that point?

My father is a PD in a California county. Makes 170k.

Kivan · Post by **Kivan** » Tue Mar 15, 2016 5:49 pm

PD's in my area started off at $50k

However, my jurisdiction was relatively high in salary compared to the rest of the state's PD offices and we aren't even the state capitol.

Anonymous User · Post by **Anonymous User** » Tue Mar 15, 2016 6:51 pm

In LA County, you are starting out close to 80k. At 100k by year 5-6.

Anonymous User · Post by **Anonymous User** » Fri Mar 18, 2016 7:35 pm

In Northern California and to a lesser extent Southern California you can make very real money as a PD. For instance, the starting salary in SF is around 100k and has the potential to go up above 150k after about 10 years. I'm pretty sure this is unique in the US though except for federal positions.

zot1 · Post by **zot1** » Fri Mar 18, 2016 7:40 pm

Yeah but when you're making 100k in one of the most expensive cities in the US, that isn't saying much.

CaptainLeela · Post by **CaptainLeela** » Fri Mar 18, 2016 7:51 pm

Welcome to TLS

zot1 · Post by **zot1** » Fri Mar 18, 2016 7:59 pm

CaptainLeela wrote:
zot1 wrote:Yeah but when you're making 100k in one of the most expensive cities in the US, that isn't saying much.
New York City jurisdictions start at around half that. I'm not sure what the point of this comment is.

If OP is taking salary into account of his PD search (or anyone else looking at this thread for that matter), knowing what the actual take home is should matter. That is, 100k in San Francisco may be the equivalent of 40k in a low COL area.

abogadesq · Post by **abogadesq** » Fri Mar 18, 2016 8:56 pm

Florida PDs cap around $60k unless you get a supervisory position or leave to private practice and come back. I've seen non-supervisor PDs who returned from private practice making $90k. Salaries are about equal across the state, even in high COL places like Miami.

Unlikely you will make more than that. State hasn't increased salaries in over 10 years.

Anonymous User · Post by **Anonymous User** » Fri Mar 18, 2016 8:59 pm

zot1 wrote:
CaptainLeela wrote:
zot1 wrote:Yeah but when you're making 100k in one of the most expensive cities in the US, that isn't saying much.
New York City jurisdictions start at around half that. I'm not sure what the point of this comment is.
If OP is taking salary into account of his PD search (or anyone else looking at this thread for that matter), knowing what the actual take home is should matter. That is, 100k in San Francisco may be the equivalent of 40k in a low COL area.

That may very well be true if you're comparing SF with say St. Louis, but 100k is still a good salary for SF. You'll be living a far better quality of life than a PD making 40k in NOLA or Miami.

zot1 · Post by **zot1** » Fri Mar 18, 2016 9:00 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
zot1 wrote:
CaptainLeela wrote:
zot1 wrote:Yeah but when you're making 100k in one of the most expensive cities in the US, that isn't saying much.
New York City jurisdictions start at around half that. I'm not sure what the point of this comment is.
If OP is taking salary into account of his PD search (or anyone else looking at this thread for that matter), knowing what the actual take home is should matter. That is, 100k in San Francisco may be the equivalent of 40k in a low COL area.
That may very well be true if you're comparing SF with say St. Louis, but 100k is still a good salary for SF. You'll be living a far better quality of life than a PD making 40k in NOLA or Miami.

Cool.

Anonymous User · Post by **Anonymous User** » Mon Mar 21, 2016 9:10 pm

curious bobcat wrote:As everybody else said, it varies by location. But I'll throw in my anecdata. I've talked to PDs in two different major cities:

Philly: Started at $48.5, after 5 years this PD is at $60. I've been told that supervisors and veterans here are making in the low $100
Boston: Started at $40, after 2 years this PD is at $46.

USA has the $$$, so Federal PDs uniformly make a lot more. I have read that Fed PDs in San Fran. can make above $200.

The PD gunner thread in the Legal Employment section will probably have more info, at least about starting salaries.

This second sentence is patently incorrect. The maximum possible salary is basically the equivalent of GS-15, Step 10 (which is roughly what THE federal defender makes). I'd argue that you can actually make the same or similar salary in CA state PD offices as with Fed PD. CA is probably the one place in the country where public defenders make reasonable salaries. Also FPD salaries vary vastly based on which office you're at and how that federal defender/executive director does his or her budget (it's basically the same deal as with the USAOs, but with significantly smaller budgets since the DoJ gets a lot more money).

Anonymous User wrote:In Northern California and to a lesser extent Southern California you can make very real money as a PD. For instance, the starting salary in SF is around 100k and has the potential to go up above 150k after about 10 years. I'm pretty sure this is unique in the US though except for federal positions.

I think it merits adding that getting into the San Fran PD is extremely difficult. I honestly think your odds at a federal circuit court clerkship are better (and, frankly, a number of the PDs in San Fran have fed circuit court clerkship experience).

anon sequitur · Post by **anon sequitur** » Mon Mar 21, 2016 11:10 pm

Anonymous User wrote:FPD salaries vary vastly based on which office you're at and how that federal defender/executive director does his or her budget (it's basically the same deal as with the USAOs, but with significantly smaller budgets since the DoJ gets a lot more money).

How does this work? I was under the impression that everyone who was an AFPD would go to GS-14. Is that not the case? What about the Supervisory AFPD's? Is this something to do with the steps? I still don't really understand that part.

Anonymous User · Post by **Anonymous User** » Mon Mar 21, 2016 11:53 pm

anon sequitur wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:FPD salaries vary vastly based on which office you're at and how that federal defender/executive director does his or her budget (it's basically the same deal as with the USAOs, but with significantly smaller budgets since the DoJ gets a lot more money).
How does this work? I was under the impression that everyone who was an AFPD would go to GS-14. Is that not the case? What about the Supervisory AFPD's? Is this something to do with the steps? I still don't really understand that part.

If the FPD is like the USAO, it's not on the GS-scale, it's on a different, more opaque scale, with room for salary ranges based on performance reviews and how the office head chooses to allocate funds.

GreenEggs · Post by **GreenEggs** » Mon Mar 21, 2016 11:55 pm

DC PDS starts at like 67k + benefits. can't really beat that

Torts Illustrated · Post by **Torts Illustrated** » Tue Mar 22, 2016 1:56 am

Anonymous User wrote:
anon sequitur wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:FPD salaries vary vastly based on which office you're at and how that federal defender/executive director does his or her budget (it's basically the same deal as with the USAOs, but with significantly smaller budgets since the DoJ gets a lot more money).
How does this work? I was under the impression that everyone who was an AFPD would go to GS-14. Is that not the case? What about the Supervisory AFPD's? Is this something to do with the steps? I still don't really understand that part.
If the FPD is like the USAO, it's not on the GS-scale, it's on a different, more opaque scale, with room for salary ranges based on performance reviews and how the office head chooses to allocate funds.

Can also depend on whether you're dealing with a Federal Public Defender Organization (a governmental organization supervised by the court of appeals) or a Community Defender Organization (a nonprofit, non-governmental organization). But yeah, what the other guy said.

Even Federal Public Defender Organization employees wouldn't be GS-scale, I don't think, because the GS-scale is for the civil service and FPDOs aren't civil service. If anything, FPDO employees would be on the JS-scale that the judiciary uses. But I don't know whether any actually are, and I know that some definitely aren't.

Anonymous User · Post by **Anonymous User** » Tue Mar 22, 2016 2:05 am

Apparently (thanks, Google) graded employees at the FPD are paid on the JSP scale, which seems to mean the staff rather than the attorneys? The job announcements I could find that were for the FPD proper (as opposed to the non-profit non-governmental groups referenced) all said that the salary was the equivalent of AUSA salaries. (I know SF is expensive, but I really don't think AUSAs in SF are making over $200k.)

Borhas · Post by **Borhas** » Tue Mar 22, 2016 10:56 am

Colorado State PD starting salary is 57,276 + benefits (including pension, health insurance etc)

2 year mark salary will be around 63,000

From there on there are incremental salary increases every you year. You are pretty much guaranteed a 1% raise every year as long as you aren't about to get fired. 2% if you are exceptional (rarely given out). There is also a cost of living adjustment that is usually around +1-3% every year.

There are bigger salary increases when you get promoted from standard deputy state PD to senior deputy PD, lead Deputy PD, supervisor. None of those positions are guaranteed.

the interesting thing about Colorado State PD salary scale (aside from the relatively flat increase, though relatively high start) is that it is the same in all the regions. So a 2nd year attorney in Denver will make exactly the same amount as a 2nd year attorney working in a rural jurisdiction with a much lower cost of living.

The key to making a lot of money as a lifer is to get the promotions early, because obviously incremental 3-4% raises every year add up to a lot more if you get those bigger salary bumps from promotions earlier. If you can become a supervisor around 10 years and then stay on for life, then you will be very comfortable.

Anonymous User · Post by **Anonymous User** » Tue Mar 22, 2016 10:21 pm

anon sequitur wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:FPD salaries vary vastly based on which office you're at and how that federal defender/executive director does his or her budget (it's basically the same deal as with the USAOs, but with significantly smaller budgets since the DoJ gets a lot more money).
How does this work? I was under the impression that everyone who was an AFPD would go to GS-14. Is that not the case? What about the Supervisory AFPD's? Is this something to do with the steps? I still don't really understand that part.

AFPDs are on the AD payscale, not the GS payscale. Also, the cap isn't equivalent to GS-14 for AFPDs. The cap is the equivalent of GS-15, Step 10. Supervisory AFPDs get something like an additional $50 per month on top of the typical maximum salary and THE FPD gets something like an additional $100 per month. There's a ton of discretion when it comes to salaries for pretty much every but the FPD, who gets the max (plus $100 per month or whatever it is).

Anonymous User wrote:
anon sequitur wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:FPD salaries vary vastly based on which office you're at and how that federal defender/executive director does his or her budget (it's basically the same deal as with the USAOs, but with significantly smaller budgets since the DoJ gets a lot more money).
How does this work? I was under the impression that everyone who was an AFPD would go to GS-14. Is that not the case? What about the Supervisory AFPD's? Is this something to do with the steps? I still don't really understand that part.
If the FPD is like the USAO, it's not on the GS-scale, it's on a different, more opaque scale, with room for salary ranges based on performance reviews and how the office head chooses to allocate funds.

Yup. It's right here: https://www.justice.gov/usao/career-cen ... lan-charts . Keep in mind that there's a cost of living adjustment in there for people who aren't maxed out (roughly $160k), which can jack up that base salary by over 35%.

Torts Illustrated wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
anon sequitur wrote:
How does this work? I was under the impression that everyone who was an AFPD would go to GS-14. Is that not the case? What about the Supervisory AFPD's? Is this something to do with the steps? I still don't really understand that part.
If the FPD is like the USAO, it's not on the GS-scale, it's on a different, more opaque scale, with room for salary ranges based on performance reviews and how the office head chooses to allocate funds.
Can also depend on whether you're dealing with a Federal Public Defender Organization (a governmental organization supervised by the court of appeals) or a Community Defender Organization (a nonprofit, non-governmental organization). But yeah, what the other guy said.

Even Federal Public Defender Organization employees wouldn't be GS-scale, I don't think, because the GS-scale is for the civil service and FPDOs aren't civil service. If anything, FPDO employees would be on the JS-scale that the judiciary uses. But I don't know whether any actually are, and I know that some definitely aren't.

Yes, it's the JSP payscale for graded employees, but the JSP payscale is identical to the GS payscale, so it doesn't really make any difference. AFPDs are not at the JSP payscale (but staff, investigators, and pretty much everyone else is).

Anonymous User wrote:Apparently (thanks, Google) graded employees at the FPD are paid on the JSP scale, which seems to mean the staff rather than the attorneys?

Yes, with the exception of the "research and writing attorney" positions.

Anonymous User wrote:The job announcements I could find that were for the FPD proper (as opposed to the non-profit non-governmental groups referenced) all said that the salary was the equivalent of AUSA salaries.

Read the job descriptions more carefully. You'll notice that they typically say the salaries are on a scale equivalent to that of an AUSA (or something like that). I think salaries across the board are probably lower at FPDOs than USAOs simply because the DoJ's budget is so much larger than the federal defender budget. It also really depends on how the federal defender/executive director does his/her budget. Some of them will place a larger chunk of their budgets into training, etc., and will pay closer to the minimum salaries on the AD payscale. Others viciously avoid unnecessarily spending money, but will max everyone out as quickly as they can (assuming positive performance reviews, of course). I think most offices probably fall in the middle of those two extremes, but on average likely well below the midpoint of the AUSAs salaries on the AD payscale that I posted a link to above (again, I think this because the FPD budgets are much smaller than USAO budgets).

Anonymous User wrote:(I know SF is expensive, but I really don't think AUSAs in SF are making over $200k.)

The thing is you don't get a cost of living adjustment once you reach the highest possible salary, which is roughly $160k. The only federal government agencies I can think of that pay more than that are the financial regulatory agencies (e.g. SEC).