For Austin - 1L MoFo, Skadden, Davis Polk, Fenwick vs. Austin Forum

[Lalabatman]

EDIT ////////////////

Wowzers, this got a lot more reaction than I thought it would. Thank you to everyone who offered their two cents, even the dude who called me a Douchebag Berkeley Bro (that's Mr. Douchebag Berkeley Bro to you, Ser) who wants to work in Austin because it would be "totes".

Just to give an update. I got the Fenwick offer. Also, I have an informal meeting with a big law hiring partner in Austin (woot!).

Anywho. I think the general consensus was to pick either Skadden or DPW? A few helpful souls suggested Fenwick for tech cred.

Does that mean MoFo would be a really bad choice? I was kind of leaning MoFo cause I could do TTG work. Fenwick would be pure corporate.

If anyone is curious btw, I have a pretty simple reason for wanting Austin. I grew up in a poor, urban, densely populated area that had a lot of bad influences. I grew up dreaming about Texas like kids from Nebraska dream about NYC. I pursued education and a professional career to offer my children something better than I had. I am of the humble, perhaps naive, opinion that Texas (Austin specifically) is that something better. Not some over-hyped, over-congested, overpriced coastal city where they will grow up not knowing their neighbors.

Thanks again and God bless.


---


Hey Fam,

There is a lot in a title. Basically I have a pipe dream of becoming an Austin corporate attorney.

I have no ties to Austin and I go to a T-8 school on one of the coasts.

I have summer offers at Skadden, Davis Polk, and MoFo. Possibly Fenwick.

I also have an offer from an Austin non profit.

Given how important ties to Austin are but how swanky paid 1L gigs are -- does anyone have an informed opinion on which option would make me more attractive for my 2L Austin hunt?

Btw Austin is the big pipe dream but i'd be lucky as hell to have a career with any one of the firms I've listed. And would be happy doing so if Austin doesn't materialize.

Thank you in advance. If anything in this post offends anyone please feel free to bring the snark -- but i'd appreciate if it was paired with an opinion as well.

God bless America.

[BigZuck]

You're not going to get a job in Austin. Jobs don't exist and they go to UT law review bros with ties

Pick one of those firms (ideally whichever one is most likely to lead to a full time offer) and then try for Austin during the 2L OCI season

But you're not going to get a job in Austin

Sounds like you'll be ok

[DueProcessDoWheelies]

Everyone and their mom is trying to go to Austin and it still isn't that big of a city. For that reason it's tough to get a job there without connections, especially in the legal field.

Try for a summer gig there like the above poster said, and see what you think. Otherwise, I'd recommend getting some experience wherever you are for a few years and then try to go there. It may be a good idea to work where you are for 5 years and then waive into Texas. Unless you don't mind studying for that beast of a bar exam. I'm taking the Texas bar in a couple weeks, I hate it.

You could also look into working for a national firm that has offices in both your city and Austin.

[Old Gregg]

It isn't that hard further down in your career (FWIW, I had an offer to go from one of these firms to Austin). There's a decently sized start-up/VC legal market there that's dominated by Andrews Kurth, DLA Piper and Wilson Sonsini. After cutting your teeth at the above firms for a few years, you'll definitely have a shot at one of them.

[BigZuck]

Everyone and their mom is trying to go to Austin and it still isn't that big of a city. For that reason it's tough to get a job there without connections, especially in the legal field.

Try for a summer gig there like the above poster said, and see what you think. Otherwise, I'd recommend getting some experience wherever you are for a few years and then try to go there. It may be a good idea to work where you are for 5 years and then waive into Texas. Unless you don't mind studying for that beast of a bar exam. I'm taking the Texas bar in a couple weeks, I hate it.

You could also look into working for a national firm that has offices in both your city and Austin.

I just want to be clear-Maybe try for a summer gig there during 2L summer, but that's only when you have another big law offer in your back pocket. I absolutely, 100%, WOULD NOT take an unpaid public interest thing there 1L summer just to try and bulk up your narrative for OCI. Getting a full time offer from one of those NYC firms is IMPERATIVE because you need to approach the Austin job search as if it is literally impossible to get a job there (because it effectively is)

Lots of the big law offices in Austin are tiny, and I'd be a bit leery of them being around in a couple years just based what I have heard from Austin big lawyers. I'm not sure there's all that much need for big law in a city like Austin (this is where an Austin big lawyer chimes in and tells me that I'm wrong and that Austin big law is THRIVING). I dunno, I'm just basing that on talking to a few ex-partners at some of these firms, maybe they're just bitter or something.

And...looks like I was preemptively told I'm wrong. I'd probably trust Old Gregg on this topic more than I would trust me

[DueProcessDoWheelies]

Everyone and their mom is trying to go to Austin and it still isn't that big of a city. For that reason it's tough to get a job there without connections, especially in the legal field.

Try for a summer gig there like the above poster said, and see what you think. Otherwise, I'd recommend getting some experience wherever you are for a few years and then try to go there. It may be a good idea to work where you are for 5 years and then waive into Texas. Unless you don't mind studying for that beast of a bar exam. I'm taking the Texas bar in a couple weeks, I hate it.

You could also look into working for a national firm that has offices in both your city and Austin.

I just want to be clear-Maybe try for a summer gig there during 2L summer, but that's only when you have another big law offer in your back pocket. I absolutely, 100%, WOULD NOT take an unpaid public interest thing there 1L summer just to try and bulk up your narrative for OCI. Getting a full time offer from one of those NYC firms is IMPERATIVE because you need to approach the Austin job search as if it is literally impossible to get a job there (because it effectively is)

Lots of the big law offices in Austin are tiny, and I'd be a bit leery of them being around in a couple years just based what I have heard from Austin big lawyers. I'm not sure there's all that much need for big law in a city like Austin (this is where an Austin big lawyer chimes in and tells me that I'm wrong and that Austin big law is THRIVING). I dunno, I'm just basing that on talking to a few ex-partners at some of these firms, maybe they're just bitter or something.

And...looks like I was preemptively told I'm wrong. I'd probably trust Old Gregg on this topic more than I would trust me

The need for big law in Austin is growing just because Austin has grown so fast, but there's still much more big law stuff in a city like Houston or Dallas. But those cities are monstrous compared to Austin.

I also advise against taking an unpaid public interest job in Austin, unless OP is just 100% dead-set on being there. He may be in for a rude awakening, though, because rents are going up and having a car is a necessity there.

It's true that the Austin market gives strong preference to Texas grads. Makes sense, as other big cities are the same. For that reason I stand by what I said earlier- get some experience under your belt in your city before making the move.

[ATXBiglaw]

Hey Fam,

There is a lot in a title. Basically I have a pipe dream of becoming an Austin corporate attorney.

I have no ties to Austin and I go to a T-8 school on one of the coasts.

I have summer offers at Skadden, Davis Polk, and MoFo. Possibly Fenwick.

I also have an offer from an Austin non profit.

Given how important ties to Austin are but how swanky paid 1L gigs are -- does anyone have an informed opinion on which option would make me more attractive for my 2L Austin hunt?

Btw Austin is the big pipe dream but i'd be lucky as hell to have a career with any one of the firms I've listed. And would be happy doing so if Austin doesn't materialize.

Thank you in advance. If anything in this post offends anyone please feel free to bring the snark -- but i'd appreciate if it was paired with an opinion as well.

God bless America.

I'm a second year lit associate at a big firm here in Austin, so think my experience can be useful to you. While ties to the Texas market are important, ties to Austin in particular are not. The hiring committee, at least at my firm, is aware that Austin is a desirable market and there's little chance that a first/second year will leave early. I would advise you to take one of the offers at Skadden/DP/MoFo and leverage that experience to get your foot in the door at an Austin firm. If you need an excuse for ties, just say you have extended family in Houston/Dallas. As for why Austin, something along the lines of: smaller and thinly staffed deals = great early experience.

The factor working against you is class size - I'm not aware of a firm in Austin that takes more than 6-7 SAs per summer. With that said, not all sports are reserved for UT Law. In fact, I believe we only had 2 students this past summer from UT. Begin to reach out to alumni from your school and see if you can chat by phone. Ask about practice and/or deal sizes and/or experience for first/second years and/or etc. Try to then meet with that person to grab coffee - one phone interview won't help, but the subsequent follow up will.

Good luck.

[Anonymous User]

You're not going to get a job in Austin. Jobs don't exist and they go to UT law review bros with ties

Pick one of those firms (ideally whichever one is most likely to lead to a full time offer) and then try for Austin during the 2L OCI season

But you're not going to get a job in Austin

Sounds like you'll be ok

Just so you know, that's garbage.

[BigZuck]

You're not going to get a job in Austin. Jobs don't exist and they go to UT law review bros with ties

Pick one of those firms (ideally whichever one is most likely to lead to a full time offer) and then try for Austin during the 2L OCI season

But you're not going to get a job in Austin

Sounds like you'll be ok

Just so you know, that's garbage.

Craven coward- Just so you know, your anon abuse does not faze me. I feel really good about this:

I just want to be clear-Maybe try for a summer gig there during 2L summer, but that's only when you have another big law offer in your back pocket. I absolutely, 100%, WOULD NOT take an unpaid public interest thing there 1L summer just to try and bulk up your narrative for OCI. Getting a full time offer from one of those NYC firms is IMPERATIVE because you need to approach the Austin job search as if it is literally impossible to get a job there (because it effectively is)

Some T14 rando with no ties to Austin needs to play this one super safe and act as if there are no jobs to be had because this is going to be tough sledding. The dude had it in his mind that maybe doing unpaid PI there was worth passing up on a 1L SA. Come on.

Is it LITERALLY impossible? No. Should you act as if it is? Yes. Will the OP snag Austin big law? Probably not. No one should be passing up on V10 1L SAs and putting their eggs in a basket that they barely know anything about because they just think it sounds like it would be totes fun to live there cuz food trucks.

I'm not saying don't try, I'm saying lock down the backup plan first. The OP was considering throwing the backup plan out the window. Not good.

[wolfie_m.]

.

[Anonymous User]

You're not going to get a job in Austin. Jobs don't exist and they go to UT law review bros with ties

Pick one of those firms (ideally whichever one is most likely to lead to a full time offer) and then try for Austin during the 2L OCI season

But you're not going to get a job in Austin

Sounds like you'll be ok

Just so you know, that's garbage.

I agree with BZ. Targeting Austin exclusively or even primarily in this case is a bad idea.

BZ made several statements there that were ridiculous.

[Anonymous User]

I am a midlevel corporate attorney in Austin.

BigZuck is basically full of shit.

Austin does care about ties, but it's certainly not as important as some people seem to think. I think your best move is to go to Fenwick (assuming you do get the offer) and then try to get a job at WSGR, AK, or DLA here in Austin. All three do a good bit of the exact same work Fenwick does. They will be impressed by the Fenwick name. If you don't get the offer at FW, just go with whichever you prefer most between Skadden and DPW.

FWIW, my firm has hired tons of laterals from the SV and NY markets, and many of them do not have ties. Austin's biglaw scene is only getting bigger. Every firm here (with the exception of V&E, which has cut its corporate practice here) is getting bigger.

Good luck

[BigZuck]

You're not going to get a job in Austin. Jobs don't exist and they go to UT law review bros with ties

Pick one of those firms (ideally whichever one is most likely to lead to a full time offer) and then try for Austin during the 2L OCI season

But you're not going to get a job in Austin

Sounds like you'll be ok

Just so you know, that's garbage.

I agree with BZ. Targeting Austin exclusively or even primarily in this case is a bad idea.

BZ made several statements there that were ridiculous.

Like what, specifically?

On the state of the market, I acknowledged that I was just passing along what partners who may or may not have been biased (or clueless, really) were saying, and I acknowledged that I very well could have been wrong.

So what else was problematic? I mean, I've seen lots of people try to get Austin and fail. I'm sure it's easier from a T14, but do you really think someone should primarily target that market?

Again, be specific here broham.

[WhiteCollarBlueShirt]

You're not going to get a job in Austin. Jobs don't exist and they go to UT law review bros with ties

Pick one of those firms (ideally whichever one is most likely to lead to a full time offer) and then try for Austin during the 2L OCI season

But you're not going to get a job in Austin

Sounds like you'll be ok

Just so you know, that's garbage.

I agree with BZ. Targeting Austin exclusively or even primarily in this case is a bad idea.

BZ made several statements there that were ridiculous.

Like what, specifically?

On the state of the market, I acknowledged that I was just passing along what partners who may or may not have been biased (or clueless, really) were saying, and I acknowledged that I very well could have been wrong.

So what else was problematic? I mean, I've seen lots of people try to get Austin and fail. I'm sure it's easier from a T14, but do you really think someone should primarily target that market?

Again, be specific here broham.

I have no skin in this whatsoever, but the lateral vs. oci market is so wildly different. I would have had zero chance getting Austin in law school, yet my very first recruiting call was for Austin (zero discernible ties) and Austin has stayed pretty consistently up there for the most targeted/consistent law firm recruiting.

[Anonymous User]

I'm a 2L who partially targeted Austin from a T14 during OCI. I was in the top ~2% of my class and struck out in Austin. I have real family ties to Austin but have never lived there. I did several callbacks and almost every attorney I met with went to UT for undergrad or law school and/or grew up in Austin. They were all skeptical about why I wanted to work there, even with fairly strong family ties. I also interview well and did very well in other markets and at highly competitive firms. Austin is just a tough nut to crack.

I think you should take a 1L SA and then try for Austin during 2L OCI, try again during 3L OCI if you fail, and then try to lateral down the line. You get more than one bite at the apple and selling out on the idea now is a terrible idea.

[Anonymous User]

I'm a 2L who partially targeted Austin from a T14 during OCI. I was in the top ~2% of my class and struck out in Austin. I have real family ties to Austin but have never lived there. I did several callbacks and almost every attorney I met with went to UT for undergrad or law school and/or grew up in Austin. They were all skeptical about why I wanted to work there, even with fairly strong family ties. I also interview well and did very well in other markets and at highly competitive firms. Austin is just a tough nut to crack.

I think you should take a 1L SA and then try for Austin during 2L OCI, try again during 3L OCI if you fail, and then try to lateral down the line. You get more than one bite at the apple and selling out on the idea now is a terrible idea.

I'm sorry to hear about your Austin experience but it's not so difficult a nut to crack. I too have anecdotes about people from non-T14 schools with worse grades than you who got Austin.

[BigZuck]

You're not going to get a job in Austin. Jobs don't exist and they go to UT law review bros with ties

Pick one of those firms (ideally whichever one is most likely to lead to a full time offer) and then try for Austin during the 2L OCI season

But you're not going to get a job in Austin

Sounds like you'll be ok

Just so you know, that's garbage.

I agree with BZ. Targeting Austin exclusively or even primarily in this case is a bad idea.

BZ made several statements there that were ridiculous.

Like what, specifically?

On the state of the market, I acknowledged that I was just passing along what partners who may or may not have been biased (or clueless, really) were saying, and I acknowledged that I very well could have been wrong.

So what else was problematic? I mean, I've seen lots of people try to get Austin and fail. I'm sure it's easier from a T14, but do you really think someone should primarily target that market?

Again, be specific here broham.

I have no skin in this whatsoever, but the lateral vs. oci market is so wildly different. I would have had zero chance getting Austin in law school, yet my very first recruiting call was for Austin (zero discernible ties) and Austin has stayed pretty consistently up there for the most targeted/consistent law firm recruiting.

Yeah, I'm trying to think of this from the perspective of a 1L trying to figure out what he should do, not a 4th year trying to lateral from the coasts. God knows where the OP will be or what he will be doing roughly 7 years from now.

I thought what I said in my first post ITT was obviously and purposefully hyperbolic but I guess I didn't do a good job of conveying thing that. Yeah, sure, anything is possible. Is it probable? I don't think so, not even close to probable. Should the OP try and throw all his eggs in that basket? I definitely think not. Maybe that's overly risk averse but I think the OP should approach this as a big longshot. Give it a shot by all means (I said that a bunch of times) but focus on the surer things and the backups first.

[Anonymous User]

You're not going to get a job in Austin. Jobs don't exist and they go to UT law review bros with ties

Pick one of those firms (ideally whichever one is most likely to lead to a full time offer) and then try for Austin during the 2L OCI season

But you're not going to get a job in Austin

Sounds like you'll be ok

Just so you know, that's garbage.

I agree with BZ. Targeting Austin exclusively or even primarily in this case is a bad idea.

BZ made several statements there that were ridiculous.

Like what, specifically?

On the state of the market, I acknowledged that I was just passing along what partners who may or may not have been biased (or clueless, really) were saying, and I acknowledged that I very well could have been wrong.

So what else was problematic? I mean, I've seen lots of people try to get Austin and fail. I'm sure it's easier from a T14, but do you really think someone should primarily target that market?

Again, be specific here broham.

I have no skin in this whatsoever, but the lateral vs. oci market is so wildly different. I would have had zero chance getting Austin in law school, yet my very first recruiting call was for Austin (zero discernible ties) and Austin has stayed pretty consistently up there for the most targeted/consistent law firm recruiting.

Yeah, I'm trying to think of this from the perspective of a 1L trying to figure out what he should do, not a 4th year trying to lateral from the coasts. God knows where the OP will be or what he will be doing roughly 7 years from now.

I thought what I said in my first post ITT was obviously and purposefully hyperbolic but I guess I didn't do a good job of conveying thing that. Yeah, sure, anything is possible. Is it probable? I don't think so, not even close to probable. Should the OP try and throw all his eggs in that basket? I definitely think not. Maybe that's overly risk averse but I think the OP should approach this as a big longshot. Give it a shot by all means (I said that a bunch of times) but focus on the surer things and the backups first.

Surer things? Your languaging is fascinating.

[Anonymous User]

I'm a 2L who partially targeted Austin from a T14 during OCI. I was in the top ~2% of my class and struck out in Austin. I have real family ties to Austin but have never lived there. I did several callbacks and almost every attorney I met with went to UT for undergrad or law school and/or grew up in Austin. They were all skeptical about why I wanted to work there, even with fairly strong family ties. I also interview well and did very well in other markets and at highly competitive firms. Austin is just a tough nut to crack.

I think you should take a 1L SA and then try for Austin during 2L OCI, try again during 3L OCI if you fail, and then try to lateral down the line. You get more than one bite at the apple and selling out on the idea now is a terrible idea.

I'm sorry to hear about your Austin experience but it's not so difficult a nut to crack. I too have anecdotes about people from non-T14 schools with worse grades than you who got Austin.

This is correct. Experiences can differ across firms, but direct ties to Austin are not necessary. If I'm evaluating two candidates - one from NYU and UT, both with similar grades - I'm giving the offer based on fit rather than a candidate's "ties" to Austin. Just have a coherent reason as to why Austin. Good grades from good schools will get you interviews with Austin firms, and fit will get you the job.

[BigZuck]

Surer things? Your languaging is fascinating.

You are the silliest of gooses my dude

Again, focus on what specifically you take issue with and try to help out the OP

(or is this a different anon abuser? It's hard to follow)

[BigZuck]

I do think it's kind of funny that this pent-up Austin midlevel rage has been spilt in the name of lalabatman, a "T8" 1L with "God Bless America" in his sig line. I think this whole thing is really useful for people genuinely interested in the Austin market long term but I suspect this OP is a Berkeley bro more interested in making a chill AF 160K and noming on Franklins than someone with a compelling reason for wanting to do the type of work that Austin firms do.

Again though, I could be totally wrong about that.

[DueProcessDoWheelies]

I'm a 2L who partially targeted Austin from a T14 during OCI. I was in the top ~2% of my class and struck out in Austin. I have real family ties to Austin but have never lived there. I did several callbacks and almost every attorney I met with went to UT for undergrad or law school and/or grew up in Austin. They were all skeptical about why I wanted to work there, even with fairly strong family ties. I also interview well and did very well in other markets and at highly competitive firms. Austin is just a tough nut to crack.

I think you should take a 1L SA and then try for Austin during 2L OCI, try again during 3L OCI if you fail, and then try to lateral down the line. You get more than one bite at the apple and selling out on the idea now is a terrible idea.

I'm sorry to hear about your Austin experience but it's not so difficult a nut to crack. I too have anecdotes about people from non-T14 schools with worse grades than you who got Austin.

This is correct. Experiences can differ across firms, but direct ties to Austin are not necessary. If I'm evaluating two candidates - one from NYU and UT, both with similar grades - I'm giving the offer based on fit rather than a candidate's "ties" to Austin. Just have a coherent reason as to why Austin. Good grades from good schools will get you interviews with Austin firms, and fit will get you the job.

Let's be real here re: "why Austin?" For almost everyone from out-of-state who tries to go to Austin, the only actual reason for choosing Austin is because it's a cool place to live. Not speaking for OP, but I never hear of anyone going there to "do the kind of work the firms there do." No. People want to go there because it's a cool city.

I guess that isn't the best answer to give in interviews if you're asked, but it sure is the honest one.

[Anonymous User]

I am a midlevel corporate attorney in Austin.

BigZuck is basically full of shit.

Austin does care about ties, but it's certainly not as important as some people seem to think. I think your best move is to go to Fenwick (assuming you do get the offer) and then try to get a job at WSGR, AK, or DLA here in Austin. All three do a good bit of the exact same work Fenwick does. They will be impressed by the Fenwick name. If you don't get the offer at FW, just go with whichever you prefer most between Skadden and DPW.

FWIW, my firm has hired tons of laterals from the SV and NY markets, and many of them do not have ties. Austin's biglaw scene is only getting bigger. Every firm here (with the exception of V&E, which has cut its corporate practice here) is getting bigger.

Good luck

Sorry to hijack the thread, but how many years of expletive do the laterals usually have before going to Austin? Are 2 years at a V10 enough before lateraling? Also, do you know if the hours any better at the smaller firms in Austin than the ones in the bigger cities?

[ATXBiglaw]

I'm a 2L who partially targeted Austin from a T14 during OCI. I was in the top ~2% of my class and struck out in Austin. I have real family ties to Austin but have never lived there. I did several callbacks and almost every attorney I met with went to UT for undergrad or law school and/or grew up in Austin. They were all skeptical about why I wanted to work there, even with fairly strong family ties. I also interview well and did very well in other markets and at highly competitive firms. Austin is just a tough nut to crack.

I think you should take a 1L SA and then try for Austin during 2L OCI, try again during 3L OCI if you fail, and then try to lateral down the line. You get more than one bite at the apple and selling out on the idea now is a terrible idea.

I'm sorry to hear about your Austin experience but it's not so difficult a nut to crack. I too have anecdotes about people from non-T14 schools with worse grades than you who got Austin.

This is correct. Experiences can differ across firms, but direct ties to Austin are not necessary. If I'm evaluating two candidates - one from NYU and UT, both with similar grades - I'm giving the offer based on fit rather than a candidate's "ties" to Austin. Just have a coherent reason as to why Austin. Good grades from good schools will get you interviews with Austin firms, and fit will get you the job.

Let's be real here re: "why Austin?" For almost everyone from out-of-state who tries to go to Austin, the only actual reason for choosing Austin is because it's a cool place to live. Not speaking for OP, but I never hear of anyone going there to "do the kind of work the firms there do." No. People want to go there because it's a cool city.

I guess that isn't the best answer to give in interviews if you're asked, but it sure is the honest one.

Completely agree, but that's also my point - ties are not that important to Austin because firms understand it's a desirable place to live. So, tie your reason to moving to Austin to either a practice group or the work in general (not "I read on Forbes Austin is a great place to live"). That said, I believe it is important to have ties to Texas in general.

[robotrick]

Lemme throw my anecdata into this mess of a thread.

I'm from the East Coast, go to HLS, and spent a sizable chunk of my OCI interviews on Texas (Austin in particular). I have some family in Texas--mostly near Houston--and that was my only "tie." It didn't go well.

Austin firms were picky. I only know of 6 people in my year who got SA spots in Austin, and many more than that tried. 3 of them are actually from Austin, and the others are from other parts of Texas. A couple even had 1L SAs in Texas. I don't think I ever had a shot. It's a TINY market.

I'm kinda set on the idea of going there, so I've been attending firm events as a 2L and networking with Texas attorneys. They all tell me the same thing; there just aren't a lot of firm jobs in Austin and it's going to be tough to snag one. They know it's an in-demand city and being from Texas seems to be the single most important factor to get an offer (from the perspective of interviewing at HLS). I know this is a limited sample size, but none of my fellow "outsiders" (i.e. people not at least from some part of Texas) were able to get Austin offers. I'm still trying, but I don't have high hopes.