1L PI jobs: what's more important? Forum

[bretby]

Curious about PI summer positions for 1Ls: how would you weight different factors when considering where to go? Particular issue the group focuses on vs. type of work (litigation/impact litigation/direct services/policy/etc.) vs. overall prestige of the organization vs. some other factor?

[xael]

Location.

If you have lived your entire life in one city or on the west coast, get to NYC or DC. Otherwise, you might be removing yourself from NYC for oci. Even if you fully intend to gun hard for your home market--it's easier to say "well I wanted to give it one shot" than jt is to say "I'm ready to leave the coast I grew up on."

(Or, if you are attempting to break into a market elsewhere--go there)

[landshoes]

I...have never heard that NYC cares about ties or has trouble believing that people will move there. Rather the opposite, I've heard that you should try to do 1L in a non-NYC city if you're planning to apply to that city for 2L, because it helps demonstrate a sincere interest in living there.

[xael]

I...have never heard that NYC cares about ties or has trouble believing that people will move there. Rather the opposite, I've heard that you should try to do 1L in a non-NYC city if you're planning to apply to that city for 2L, because it helps demonstrate a sincere interest in living there.

Sorry, I could have been clearer. This advice is actually pretty specific:
If all of your ties are to one secondary market with few summer associate positions (i.e.--you grew up there, went to high school there, and college there) (especially on the west coast)
And you don't go to law school there
And you don't go to HYS
Then you might want to consider working in NYC, even if you plan on trying to go back home, and especially if you want to work in NYC or think you will have to bid there. otherwise you could run the risk of striking out of your home market (because the entire market hired so few summers, for example) and NYC looking at your resume and seeing, for example, "San Diego, CA" on it seventeen times, and getting hesitant. But otoh, you don't necessarily always need that last summer in your home town to cement ties of you spent the last 25 years there.

[xael]

Or, in broader terms, just remember you are gonna have to sell yourself to firms this fall. They don't give a shit about what is prestigious, they care whether you want to work for them. So if the hardest thing you'll have to prove is yes, I'll move 3000 miles for a job, beef that part up. If you have a resume full of direct client work, maybe don't do that. If you are a boring af kjd, maybe do something (still in the legal field) different like go abroad or work for a more topical org. That's why a 1L SA is nice, because it says "hey, I've drank the cool aid! Hire me!" But tons of other things can, too.

[leslieknope]

I...have never heard that NYC cares about ties or has trouble believing that people will move there. Rather the opposite, I've heard that you should try to do 1L in a non-NYC city if you're planning to apply to that city for 2L, because it helps demonstrate a sincere interest in living there.

Sorry, I could have been clearer. This advice is actually pretty specific:
If all of your ties are to one secondary market with few summer associate positions (i.e.--you grew up there, went to high school there, and college there) (especially on the west coast)
And you don't go to law school there
And you don't go to HYS
Then you might want to consider working in NYC, even if you plan on trying to go back home, and especially if you want to work in NYC or think you will have to bid there. otherwise you could run the risk of striking out of your home market (because the entire market hired so few summers, for example) and NYC looking at your resume and seeing, for example, "San Diego, CA" on it seventeen times, and getting hesitant. But otoh, you don't necessarily always need that last summer in your home town to cement ties of you spent the last 25 years there.

If you're at HYS, is this still a concern? Also while we're asking about ties, if your ties are all to SoCal and you want to go to SF after graduation, are those ties going to be at all useful? Sorry for hijacking!

[xael]

No, those ties will not be useful.

SF is a really hard market to crack. I think I read that between oci and various job fairs they interview 100 students for every 1 position.

[Anonymous User]

I...have never heard that NYC cares about ties or has trouble believing that people will move there. Rather the opposite, I've heard that you should try to do 1L in a non-NYC city if you're planning to apply to that city for 2L, because it helps demonstrate a sincere interest in living there.

Sorry, I could have been clearer. This advice is actually pretty specific:
If all of your ties are to one secondary market with few summer associate positions (i.e.--you grew up there, went to high school there, and college there) (especially on the west coast)
And you don't go to law school there
And you don't go to HYS
Then you might want to consider working in NYC, even if you plan on trying to go back home, and especially if you want to work in NYC or think you will have to bid there. otherwise you could run the risk of striking out of your home market (because the entire market hired so few summers, for example) and NYC looking at your resume and seeing, for example, "San Diego, CA" on it seventeen times, and getting hesitant. But otoh, you don't necessarily always need that last summer in your home town to cement ties of you spent the last 25 years there.

If you're at HYS, is this still a concern? Also while we're asking about ties, if your ties are all to SoCal and you want to go to SF after graduation, are those ties going to be at all useful? Sorry for hijacking!

I'm at HY, with literally zero ties to CA, and got 2 bites from SV for 1L SA (out of 4 apps). Granted it's for IP, so YMMV.

[Anonymous User]

What if you are not interested in working for a firm? Given that some PI places don't hire out of law school (thinking ACLU, HRW, Federal Defenders) is it worth it to intern there or is it better to focus on internships that might turn into jobs? Also, what's the difference between a summer internship and working at a place during the term? I'm trying to think long term, but I'm not sure what the moving parts even are here.

Or, in broader terms, just remember you are gonna have to sell yourself to firms this fall. They don't give a shit about what is prestigious, they care whether you want to work for them. So if the hardest thing you'll have to prove is yes, I'll move 3000 miles for a job, beef that part up. If you have a resume full of direct client work, maybe don't do that. If you are a boring af kjd, maybe do something (still in the legal field) different like go abroad or work for a more topical org. That's why a 1L SA is nice, because it says "hey, I've drank the cool aid! Hire me!" But tons of other things can, too.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Focusing on internships etc. that will get you jobs always makes sense, but at least some PI employers will like seeing that you worked there as a student. I know that's a vague answer but it's going to depend on the employer (and what else you bring to the table).

The main difference between working somewhere during the summer and during the school year is that you can spend more time at a place during the summer. So you get more/better (more substantive) experience and ideally get to know more people than when you're there TTh from 9-2 or the like. That's not to say that interning during the school year isn't worthwhile, because it usually is. But an employer may also have more activities/opportunities available for interns during the summer if there's a critical mass of them (I'm thinking things like lunches to meet people or tours of relevant facilities or the like).

I think the big things to consider are 1) what kind of work are you going to get and 2) what kind of connections can you make. As for 1, the more substantive, the better, but also think about how it will fit into any future narrative. Do you want to do litigation in the future? Then it's generally better to get litigation experience than, say, something more policy oriented. Even if it's in a different kind of job, you can spin the transferable skills. Does the issue matter to you more than what kind of work you do? Find a place to work that will help you look like an expert in that issue.

As for 2, it kind of goes with 1 in that the more substantive work you do, usually the better you get to know the people at the job. But it can be helpful to look for places with established intern programs, so ideally you will meet a variety of people there. Some places integrate interns better than others. If you can talk to other people at your school who've worked for employers you're considering, it can be very helpful to find out what they found valuable or not.

I don't actually think location is that important in a vacuum, but it depends on you - do you want a PI job in a specific location? Then by all means work there, as often as you can, to get to know everyome you can in that PI community. Do you want a particular kind of PI work and don't really care where you end up? Then focus on getting that kind of work. I say location doesn't matter as much because in PI the focus is on dedication to the particular issue/mission, so you have a built-in reason to want to move for the job. I'm not going to say ties never help, because I'm sure they do, but I feel like if you, say, want to work with asylum seekers, moving somewhere you can do that job makes sense to employers more than it does to firms (since it's harder to say you *have* to be in a given city to get the firm experience you want, apart from maybe regulatory stuff in DC or super tech in SV).

Edited to add: since you mentioned FPD, I will point out that many public defender type operations are very leery of anyone with any prosecution experience. I'm not saying this makes sense
and there are ways you can spin it, but you might want to keep it in mind. The reverse isn't generally true.

And whatever you end up doing will be fine. There are ways to spin your chosen narrative with a whole range of experiences. So don't let it panic you or anything like that.