Seriously, how important are Vault rankings? Forum

[Anonymous User]

I have a grade/school combo that puts me above the cutoff for any large firm, and I've been told that I have a decent shot at V10, if not V5, just based on my resume. However, the firms I like are in secondary markets, and my favorite one isn't even V100. I like the people there, their practice areas, and their work culture. Would I be shooting myself in the foot to take a 1L summer there? I don't want to get the shit beat out of me in NYC only to come out of it hating life.

No debt.

Does it affect lateral options? Or are lateral options more based on your actual performance as a lawyer? If I want to consider breaking into entertainment, risk management, or startup consulting, do I basically have to gun V10?

[gaddockteeg]

It's less important than the chambers practice area ranking.

[TFALAWL]

NYC M&A. If that's not you, then don't give a shit about vault.

[Anonymous User]

Nobody cares except those people in the V5, V10, etc. It's just another way to separate oneself as being elite.

[TLSModBot]

NYC M&A. If that's not you, then don't give a shit about vault.

[Desert Fox]

I have a grade/school combo that puts me above the cutoff for any large firm, and I've been told that I have a decent shot at V10, if not V5, just based on my resume. However, the firms I like are in secondary markets, and my favorite one isn't even V100. I like the people there, their practice areas, and their work culture. Would I be shooting myself in the foot to take a 1L summer there? I don't want to get the shit beat out of me in NYC only to come out of it hating life.

No debt.

Does it affect lateral options? Or are lateral options more based on your actual performance as a lawyer? If I want to consider breaking into entertainment, risk management, or startup consulting, do I basically have to gun V10?

Do V10 even do startup work or entertainment work?

Start up work sux though.

[Anonymous User]

My sense is it matters a lot for exit purposes. I'm at a V30 firm, but one that is Band 1 in my Chambers practice area. I've gotten a couple in-house nibbles, but that's it. My wife is at V5 firm on the other hand, and gets 2-3 recruiters from Apple, Google, Amazon, etc... asking her to go in-house.

Chambers stuff might matter more for lateral opportunities, but anecdotally, it seems to have a real impact for stuff outside of law firms.

[hdunlop]

It doesn't matter for 1L summer. It does matter where you go when you graduate. Summer where you want one year and at the big time place the other. Then decide.

[Anonymous User]

OP here

Would it be a serious dick move to take a 1L summer and then not do a 2L/accept an offer there? In my conversations with attorneys at some firms, they mention "getting burned" by 1L SAs who do their 2L elsewhere. Or is feeling like a piece of shit something I'll have to get used to.

[Aeon]

At most firms, if you summered there as a 1L, they'll let you do a "glory lap" for a couple weeks during your 2L summer. You can spend the rest of the 2L summer at a different firm. Splitting summers this way is common.

That said, you're under no obligation to return to the 1L-summer firm. The entire point of it is for both the firm and the law student to try each other out. Firms don't feel guilty about no-offering summer associates, and neither should you about declining their offer. It's just the way this business works.

[Anonymous User]

OP here

Would it be a serious dick move to take a 1L summer and then not do a 2L/accept an offer there? In my conversations with attorneys at some firms, they mention "getting burned" by 1L SAs who do their 2L elsewhere. Or is feeling like a piece of shit something I'll have to get used to.

I declined the offer to return to my 1L firm so I could split a longer summer between two different firms. I felt like a dick but the 1L firm didn't turn out to be a great fit. Not really anyone's fault. Now, years after making these decisions, I no longer really think about it.

[Anonymous User]

OP here

Would it be a serious dick move to take a 1L summer and then not do a 2L/accept an offer there? In my conversations with attorneys at some firms, they mention "getting burned" by 1L SAs who do their 2L elsewhere. Or is feeling like a piece of shit something I'll have to get used to.

I declined the offer to return to my 1L firm so I could split a longer summer between two different firms. I felt like a dick but the 1L firm didn't turn out to be a great fit. Not really anyone's fault. Now, years after making these decisions, I no longer really think about it.

How awkward was it trying to get references from people at your 1L firm for your 2L job hunt?

[2014]

OP here

Would it be a serious dick move to take a 1L summer and then not do a 2L/accept an offer there? In my conversations with attorneys at some firms, they mention "getting burned" by 1L SAs who do their 2L elsewhere. Or is feeling like a piece of shit something I'll have to get used to.

It happens every year. The only fall out is they are less likely to hire people from your school in the future but that's not really a you issue and if it is, it's not a you issue worth giving up 20 grand soooo. The proper thing to do is arrange the 2 week victory lap then politely decline following your 2L summer assuming you choose the bigger firm for whatever reason.

[kcdc1]

My thoughts: prestige is grossly overrated. Sure, working at a top firm might make it a bit easier to lateral or move IH. But the prestige is not necessary for getting your desired exit -- if you build skills and network strategically, you'll have good options either way. And at the end of the day, you can only accept one offer, so what functional difference does the prestige make?

For example:

My sense is it matters a lot for exit purposes. I'm at a V30 firm, but one that is Band 1 in my Chambers practice area. I've gotten a couple in-house nibbles, but that's it. My wife is at V5 firm on the other hand, and gets 2-3 recruiters from Apple, Google, Amazon, etc... asking her to go in-house.

Both lawyers in this scenario can go IH if they want. The V5 lawyer gets more calls, but can still only take one offer. Perhaps the V5 lawyer has a better shot with Apple, but (1) so what?, and (2) the V30 lawyer could probably land something similar -- assuming he has the right skills and makes an effort to build connections.

Additionally, the most prestigious firms tend to have high leverage ratios, which often means you don't get much substantive work until you're a mid-level. Going off the beaten path can actually make it easier to build the skills that you'll be selling for whatever move you eventually make.

That said, the calculus changes a bit for a 1L SA. Your end-game should be to wind up at a firm where you're happy and can do substantive and interesting work early on. Because you're a 1L, you have two summers to land that offer, which means you have the option of spending one of your summers putting a super-prestigious firm on your resume. If I were you, I'd do two different firms for the two summers -- one at a top-tier biglaw firm, one at a highly regarded boutique in my desired practice area. This puts the big-name firm on your resume (demonstrating that you had the option), and allows you to compare the two and make an informed decision about where to begin your career.

[Anonymous User]

My sense is it matters a lot for exit purposes. I'm at a V30 firm, but one that is Band 1 in my Chambers practice area. I've gotten a couple in-house nibbles, but that's it. My wife is at V5 firm on the other hand, and gets 2-3 recruiters from Apple, Google, Amazon, etc... asking her to go in-house.

Chambers stuff might matter more for lateral opportunities, but anecdotally, it seems to have a real impact for stuff outside of law firms.

There are 7 attorneys I know who are at, were at, or were recruited by at least one of these companies (and each company is represented). None of them worked at a V5, and only one was at a V10. All of them did work for firms that were known to have good practices in the respective areas in which they worked or for which they were recruited.

By the way, how do you know it is important to the company, as opposed to the recruiter? Is the recruiter an employee of the company?

[Saddle Up]

Common sense. The higher the vault #, the better… especially for purposes of lateraling and staying in lockstep with the highest market salaries and bonuses. Although not always an absolute given, somewhere in the mix is the firm’s ability to continue to remain financially successful.

[wolfie_m.]

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[wolfie_m.]

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[bk1]

How awkward was it trying to get references from people at your 1L firm for your 2L job hunt?

You likely won't have to turn them down right away so it shouldn't be that much of a problem.

[bk1]

I think the most important thing to take away is that Vault is merely one source of info. It's worth it to keep in mind, but you should also consider other sources of info. If you have the luxury to be picky about firms, find the firms that have practice areas that interest you in the locations you would consider and compile info on each one (e.g., Vault, Chambers band, ATL information, your own research, national vs regional, etc). Have an approximate view of the firms and then interview with them and recalibrate your view after interviewing.

If you want to work in a secondary market, work in a secondary market. If you can work at a firm there your first summer, go for it. Having worked at a more regional firm is not going to hamper your ability to get offers from top ranked firms, except insofar as it makes it harder to sell why you'd want to work in their market.

[Anonymous User]

How awkward was it trying to get references from people at your 1L firm for your 2L job hunt?

You likely won't have to turn them down right away so it shouldn't be that much of a problem.

Not a SA, but I was in-house 1L summer who is still working here, and I didn't have a single firm out of 11 callbacks ask for references. I wouldn't worry about it.

[cheaptilts]

Covington is the only major firm I know of who specifically requests references and almost always calls (unless they really, really like you).

[Anonymous User]

My DC firm also called my references FWIW.

[Dafaq]

If you’re looking to lateral to the bigger bucks, working for a highly ranked vault firm can provide a shortcut.

[whysoseriousbiglaw]

My sense is it matters a lot for exit purposes. I'm at a V30 firm, but one that is Band 1 in my Chambers practice area. I've gotten a couple in-house nibbles, but that's it. My wife is at V5 firm on the other hand, and gets 2-3 recruiters from Apple, Google, Amazon, etc... asking her to go in-house.

Chambers stuff might matter more for lateral opportunities, but anecdotally, it seems to have a real impact for stuff outside of law firms.

Agree with this, but have to point out that Amazon is an absolute shit place to work - it's a sweatshop.

Amazon also solicits at firms from all different rankings because I think they have trouble retaining people. So yeah, it's not v5 specific to get recruited by Amazon, when nobody in their right mind would work there.