Any hope for the hopeless? Forum

[Anonymous User]

Hi, I am a 2L at a school in NY. I have aspired to become a prosecutor in the Domestic Violence or Juvenile Delinquency area but now there is not much hope left because of my transcript. I performed horrifically during the fall semester. I am at a point where I have given up on getting internships that I am dying to get (Queens DA's office, NYC law department)
I started out with a 2.66 (Crim Law C+, Torts C+, Civ Pro I B, Contracts I B-, Legal Writing B+)
And then I went up 2.99 ish(Property C+, Elective B-, Legal Writing A-, Contacts B, Civ Pro B+)
And then I went way way down 2.33 (C- Crim Pro-- class I enjoyed, it was all MC questions, C con law, B- Family Law, A- Independent Study)
This is the perfect example of someone who should not be in law school.
I am also involved in 3 different pro bono projects, interned with children's services, and WILL BE doing an externship this semester and taking con law II, ethics, writing course, evidence and maybe an independent study to boost the grades. I currently stand at a 2.66 but am so horrified at how I did last semester (when I thought I did good). At this point, I just want to build my resume. I have currently submitted something for publication at a local bar association which I hope works out.
How screwed up am I? Harsh comments are welcome.
Anybody has any advice about applying to internships in the DA's office, law department, or any public interest agency or employment advice?

[TheSpanishMain]

What school are you at? What's the median?

[Anonymous User]

What school are you at? What's the median?

Lets say between NYLS, Hofstra, Touro, Pace. And I do have a stupid question (I apologize)-- but how do you determine the median?
For my first year 2.79 put me at 78% rank wise.

[toasterovencheese]

Several PI organizations I know of do not care about grades as much as they care about commitment to the cause. I would talk to career services or alums in PI non-profits to find out which PI places care about grades and which don't, and start focusing on a specific area of public interest where there are several non-profits that aren't concerned with grades.

[TheSpanishMain]

Median is whatever the 50th percentile in the class gets. If the school publishes grade distributions, that should tell you

[andythefir]

Your situation is a great one to demonstrate how radically different the various markets across the country are. You probably are in a world of trouble if you are trying to get one of the more coveted DAs offices, including NYC, LA, SF, etc. But if you had passed the bar anywhere you could walk into a job tomorrow in southern NM. I'm sure the same is true of Wyoming, the Dakotas, Montana, and so on.

You might indeed be hopeless if you refuse to move or live in a non-metropolitan city. But if you are willing to move to a small town, there will always be work somewhere. The hype on this site is real for people who only can survive on biglaw or a federal clerkship or employment with the small handful of employers that ever get mentioned. But right this second there are hundreds of legal jobs that can't hire anyone because literally no one applies.

[TheSpanishMain]

Take this with a giant grain of salt, because I'm only repeating stuff I've heard about NYC DA's offices.

My understanding is that the NYC DA's offices are kind of an exception to the rule that DA jobs are more about commitment than school prestige/grades. The NYC offices get targeted by a lot of T14 grads, and even for them it's pretty competitive. So, based on your school and grades, you're probably not going to make the cut as a prosecutor in NYC. That said, if you're not married to NYC, I'm sure you could find another DA's office that wouldn't be as grade conscious if you cast a wide enough net.

Can I ask what your debt load will be when all is said and done?

[Kratos]

I'd drop out

[Anonymous User]

Hi, I am a 2L at a school in NY. I have aspired to become a prosecutor in the Domestic Violence or Juvenile Delinquency area but now there is not much hope left because of my transcript. I performed horrifically during the fall semester. I am at a point where I have given up on getting internships that I am dying to get (Queens DA's office, NYC law department)
I started out with a 2.66 (Crim Law C+, Torts C+, Civ Pro I B, Contracts I B-, Legal Writing B+)
And then I went up 2.99 ish(Property C+, Elective B-, Legal Writing A-, Contacts B, Civ Pro B+)
And then I went way way down 2.33 (C- Crim Pro-- class I enjoyed, it was all MC questions, C con law, B- Family Law, A- Independent Study)
This is the perfect example of someone who should not be in law school.
I am also involved in 3 different pro bono projects, interned with children's services, and might be doing an externship this semester and taking con law II, ethics, writing course, evidence and maybe an independent study to boost the grades. I currently stand at a 2.66 but am so horrified at how I did last semester (when I thought I did good). At this point, I just want to build my resume. I have currently submitted something for publication at a local bar association which I hope works out.
How screwed up am I? Harsh comments are welcome.
Anybody has any advice about applying to internships in the DA's office, law department, or any public interest agency or employment advice?

You absolutely 100% need to do an internship this summer at a rural DA's office you would be willing to begin a career in... Also, if New York allows you to practice as a certified legal intern do that now get the application in with the bar this week. You should plan on interning for free this summer at a rural DA's office. Network every crevice of your friends and family. If you can't get on as a free intern at a DA's office get your resume to every rural county/trial court judge you can get contact info for. Clearly convey you are willing to volunteer. Good luck. At this point do not focus on your grades they will not matter now. It is the connections you make that will decide whether you will be employed as an attorney. Take every advocacy course you can to show you want to be a prosecutor. If you can make it on your trial team your last year it would still be worth it.

[Poldy]

Your situation is a great one to demonstrate how radically different the various markets across the country are. You probably are in a world of trouble if you are trying to get one of the more coveted DAs offices, including NYC, LA, SF, etc. But if you had passed the bar anywhere you could walk into a job tomorrow in southern NM. I'm sure the same is true of Wyoming, the Dakotas, Montana, and so on.

You might indeed be hopeless if you refuse to move or live in a non-metropolitan city. But if you are willing to move to a small town, there will always be work somewhere. The hype on this site is real for people who only can survive on biglaw or a federal clerkship or employment with the small handful of employers that ever get mentioned. But right this second there are hundreds of legal jobs that can't hire anyone because literally no one applies.

Wouldn't count on this plan. Of all the attorneys I know practicing in one of the states you mentioned, all a but one went to school in the state. Some of that could be self-selection but I know ties matter. Also, the district/county attotney's offices tend to be 1-3 people.

[Anonymous User]

Your situation is a great one to demonstrate how radically different the various markets across the country are. You probably are in a world of trouble if you are trying to get one of the more coveted DAs offices, including NYC, LA, SF, etc. But if you had passed the bar anywhere you could walk into a job tomorrow in southern NM. I'm sure the same is true of Wyoming, the Dakotas, Montana, and so on.

You might indeed be hopeless if you refuse to move or live in a non-metropolitan city. But if you are willing to move to a small town, there will always be work somewhere. The hype on this site is real for people who only can survive on biglaw or a federal clerkship or employment with the small handful of employers that ever get mentioned. But right this second there are hundreds of legal jobs that can't hire anyone because literally no one applies.

Wouldn't count on this plan. Of all the attorneys I know practicing in one of the states you mentioned, all a but one went to school in the state. Some of that could be self-selection but I know ties matter. Also, the district/county attotney's offices tend to be 1-3 people.

I can confirm rural NM DA offices are always hiring and could care less about where you come from.

[andythefir]

Your situation is a great one to demonstrate how radically different the various markets across the country are. You probably are in a world of trouble if you are trying to get one of the more coveted DAs offices, including NYC, LA, SF, etc. But if you had passed the bar anywhere you could walk into a job tomorrow in southern NM. I'm sure the same is true of Wyoming, the Dakotas, Montana, and so on.

You might indeed be hopeless if you refuse to move or live in a non-metropolitan city. But if you are willing to move to a small town, there will always be work somewhere. The hype on this site is real for people who only can survive on biglaw or a federal clerkship or employment with the small handful of employers that ever get mentioned. But right this second there are hundreds of legal jobs that can't hire anyone because literally no one applies.

Wouldn't count on this plan. Of all the attorneys I know practicing in one of the states you mentioned, all a but one went to school in the state. Some of that could be self-selection but I know ties matter. Also, the district/county attotney's offices tend to be 1-3 people.

For New Mexico the DA's office ABQ and Santa Fe can be hard to get (even though they're objectively awful places to work), and I'd guess the larger cities in the other states are the same way. But I'm not talking about ABQ, I'm talking about Hobbs, Raton, Farmington, and so on. I've seen each of those offices up close and (except for Raton) each are 10+ attorneys, hire constantly, and care exactly nothing about ties.

[Anonymous User]

I had a relatively similar experience. I went to a slightly better tier of school - think, dozo, brooklyn, st johns, but had similar grades. I graduated with a 3.06 (pretty bottom 30 at least) but still landed a mid-law firm through a great amount of luck and networking. If that didn't pan out though, I did end up with two other offers from "residency" style small law firms, where I'd be making around 40K. The point is that jobs, not the best jobs, but jobs, do exist for people in your situation and you could conceivably be in a better place in a few years.

I also wanted to be a DA, and did interview at nassau and the bronx. I think that I didn't get it not because of grades really, but because I had very little to show that I was really into prosecution besides applying for the job and one internship with a crim judge.

If you are in NYC and can travel, I suggest mailing cover letters to the somewhat less targeted regional DA offices, Nassau, suffolk, and Westchester, for internships.They will not care, or ask, for your grades. Take your gpa off your resume if it is there. Good luck.

Edit: what a few others have said about DA jobs outside of NYC is true though- even sullivan county, 2.5 hours north of the city, has only 4 DAs, the main one makes like 100K i think and the other 3 make 35K. Thats why I suggest you start adjusting your outlook and start thinking about really small firms for your first year of practice. In my opinion, working at a tiny place making crap for a year is better than holding out for a dream job and being unemployed for more than a year (seen that happen, too).

[Anonymous User]

I had a relatively similar experience. I went to a slightly better tier of school - think, dozo, brooklyn, st johns, but had similar grades. I graduated with a 3.06 (pretty bottom 30 at least) but still landed a mid-law firm through a great amount of luck and networking. If that didn't pan out though, I did end up with two other offers from "residency" style small law firms, where I'd be making around 40K. The point is that jobs, not the best jobs, but jobs, do exist for people in your situation and you could conceivably be in a better place in a few years.

I also wanted to be a DA, and did interview at nassau and the bronx. I think that I didn't get it not because of grades really, but because I had very little to show that I was really into prosecution besides applying for the job and one internship with a crim judge.

If you are in NYC and can travel, I suggest mailing cover letters to the somewhat less targeted regional DA offices, Nassau, suffolk, and Westchester, for internships.They will not care, or ask, for your grades. Take your gpa off your resume if it is there. Good luck.

Edit: what a few others have said about DA jobs outside of NYC is true though- even sullivan county, 2.5 hours north of the city, has only 4 DAs, the main one makes like 100K i think and the other 3 make 35K. Thats why I suggest you start adjusting your outlook and start thinking about really small firms for your first year of practice. In my opinion, working at a tiny place making crap for a year is better than holding out for a dream job and being unemployed for more than a year (seen that happen, too).

Thanks for the input. I have a question-- on the Nassau DA's website it says to attach a transcript or a letter of good standing. How bad would it look if I send a letter in good standing?

[Anonymous User]

Are there any adjuncts from any DA offices at your school? If so, you need to start networking with them, yesterday.


I believe that NYC offices (with the exception of maybe Manhattan, but I say that based on hearsay), don't place as much emphasis on school prestige or GPA as they do on demonstrable commitment to public service.

For example, in my starting class at a NYC DA's office, only two people were from T-14. The other 20+ were from Touro, St. John's, Fordham, Hofstra, and others, including myself. I had a D and a couple of Cs on my transcript, but my GPA was around 3.0 at the end of my 2L.

That being said, if you really want an internship, there's no harm in applying. If you don't get a summer internship, you can also ask to intern during the school year, when its typically less competitive.

edit: btw, one of the people I got hired with also got a C in CrimPro. So there's that.

[Anonymous User]

Are there any adjuncts from any DA offices at your school? If so, you need to start networking with them, yesterday.


I believe that NYC offices (with the exception of maybe Manhattan, but I say that based on hearsay), don't place as much emphasis on school prestige or GPA as they do on demonstrable commitment to public service.

For example, in my starting class at a NYC DA's office, only two people were from T-14. The other 20+ were from Touro, St. John's, Fordham, Hofstra, and others, including myself. I had a D and a couple of Cs on my transcript, but my GPA was around 3.0 at the end of my 2L.

That being said, if you really want an internship, there's no harm in applying. If you don't get a summer internship, you can also ask to intern during the school year, when its typically less competitive.

edit: btw, one of the people I got hired with also got a C in CrimPro. So there's that.

Thanks for the input--I know I really have to push myself. And I hope this semester turns out good. And I hope I never get a D
Do you think taking skills courses might be helpful? There is a 1 credit course at my school for F, Sat, Sun-- it is Family Law Related
If so, here is what the schedule would look like
Con Law II (3)
Evidence (4)
Externship (1 grade, 2 credits p/f)
Elective Writing course (2)
Ethics (2) (not skills)
maybe an independent study for 2ish credits that I can handle (Writing is my stronger point)

[Anonymous User]

Quoted Anon here.

What kind of Skills course? Honestly, I probably wouldn't bother. 1 credit won't make a dent in your GPA, and that time is better off spent studying.

Good luck!

Are there any adjuncts from any DA offices at your school? If so, you need to start networking with them, yesterday.


I believe that NYC offices (with the exception of maybe Manhattan, but I say that based on hearsay), don't place as much emphasis on school prestige or GPA as they do on demonstrable commitment to public service.

For example, in my starting class at a NYC DA's office, only two people were from T-14. The other 20+ were from Touro, St. John's, Fordham, Hofstra, and others, including myself. I had a D and a couple of Cs on my transcript, but my GPA was around 3.0 at the end of my 2L.

That being said, if you really want an internship, there's no harm in applying. If you don't get a summer internship, you can also ask to intern during the school year, when its typically less competitive.

edit: btw, one of the people I got hired with also got a C in CrimPro. So there's that.

Thanks for the input--I know I really have to push myself. And I hope this semester turns out good. And I hope I never get a D
Do you think taking skills courses might be helpful? There is a 1 credit course at my school for F, Sat, Sun-- it is Family Law Related
If so, here is what the schedule would look like
Con Law II (3)
Evidence (4)
Externship (1 grade, 2 credits p/f)
Elective Writing course (2)
Ethics (2) (not skills)
maybe an independent study for 2ish credits that I can handle (Writing is my stronger point)

[Anonymous User]

*bump*

[Anonymous User]

I go to one of the schools you listed. First of all, if your school is on Long Island, you are better off targeting Suffolk/Nassau DA. You have a much better shot, as the city has a ridiculous amount of competition and has a much harsher interview process. Second, try and join mock trial (assuming you missed the boat on Moot Court). Third, snag an internship at one of the DA's offices (preferably Nassau/Suffolk, if you are out on Long Island) and network your ass off. These internships are generally easy to obtain. A lot of 1L/2L's that interned at the DA's office in the summer and it continued throughout the school year.

It is undoubtedly an uphill battle to become a prosecutor, but it's still possible to get your foot in the door, and subsequently get interviews, especially if you are (once again) targeting LI.

That being said, don't feel like your life is ruined because of your school/grades. Although my experience is clearly the exception, and not the rule, I am about to graduate bottom 20% of my class at one of the schools you listed, and have a guaranteed job upon graduation at a Mid-Law firm on Long Island. Since I knew my grades sucked, I made sure to get a lot of practical experience, and had 5 different legal experiences under my belt by the beginning of 3L year. The firm I'm working at didn't even ask for grades.

[seancris]

I've secured a ADA job. Although I have decent grades, these offices care 1000x more about experience and oral advocacy skills than they do about grades. So you're not screwed as long as you can persuade them that you'll be ready to hit the ground running as an ADA. Also, find a way to start networking with ADAs where you want to work (best case scenario would be somewhere with high turnover)... the best ay I've found to do this is just intern, be nice, and go to everything you're invited to (lunch, happy hour, bar association meeting, staff meeting, weekend excursion, whatever).

Grades will be a liability on your resume but someone will take you if you can show them you've got the skills you need for success in the field.

[Anonymous User]

i graduated from fordham, there was no way to mask tier 1 nyc school, had a 3.2 interned at bklyn and manhattan d a offices and us attorney sdny. I struck out at all da offices including cook and miami

[jarofsoup]

It is not hopeless, but the entry level market is going to be very hard for you. If I were you I would try to intern at a small criminal defense practice in NY during the school year. If you excel maybe they will take you on after you graduate.

Then after a few years maybe you can go to the DA. But for now you need to paint your selfe as someone who is very interested in this work and get hyper focused experience wise.

[Anonymous User]

don't worry about your gpa or publications as much

the #1 thing you can help yourself with is the commitment to the cause. you need to intern everywhere and do extracurricular activities and anything that shows you've always had an interest in DV/juvenile stuff

i actually have a worse GPA than you as a 3L, and i still was able to get offers at public defender's offices. now, I'm not sure how big the difference is between their hiring and prosecutor's hiring, but most PDs didn't care about grades at all. many did not even ask for my transcript until fairly late in the process, and it never came up in any interviews. i had interned at PDs offices both summers and did both mock trial/moot court boards and participated in our street law program, and various other small stuff like that which showed my dedication and also gave me things to talk about during interviews. of course, i can't speak to whether prosecutors would look at it the same way, but i don't think grades are nearly as important as they would be if you were applying to big firms. so i would not drop out of law school, just get active in your school and community and do things that show you're dedicated and committed to the specific areas you want to work in

[Anonymous User]

As a counterpoint to feed into the black box of ADA hiring. Graduating this may with ~3.15 from an NYC area school lower than Brooklyn. Interned at Bklyn DA and a couple judges (trial and appellate). Only Manhattan wouldn't give me an interview, no one else gave a shit about my transcript other to verify that yes, I am a law student. I start at one of the NYC offices this fall.

It can be done, but you really really have to hustle and show commitment.

[Anonymous User]

Thank you everyone so much for your feedback and advice.
I am currently externing with Legal Aid (Juvenile). (I did do an internship here before law school with criminal defense)
I also interned with children's services.
I am also working on 3 pro bono projects.

And I was just informed that one of my independent study papers will be published in a local county's bar journal in the summer.

For the summer, I applied at 2 places. The Queens DA's office (heard nothing yet) and a non for profit organization that helps with civil services (family law, housing, education)-- I interviewed with them and should hear back in 2 weeks.

If nothing works out by mid march, I might apply for a judicial internship.

I guess I can apply to nassau (but their website says to send a transcript or letter of good standing)..not sure.