Am I Getting Fired Tomorrow or No? Forum

[Anonymous User]

Second year associate at a small firm in Virginia. I was above my billables for my first year and I was billing a good amount of hours for the first half of 2015. But my billables took a complete nosedive in August when a big piece of litigation settled. Despite trying to recruit work, I've billed pretty close to just 100 hours/month for four months now.

The president of the firm (who never usually talks to me) just stopped by and said that the board wants to meet with me tomorrow at 9:30. Our firm doesn't do formal year end reviews. Yikes.

So now I'm sitting here wondering what's going to happen tomorrow. Surely a bunch of internet strangers can figure it out ahead of time for me.

[lavarman84]

Fired 3 days before Christmas? Wow. That would be totally heartless.

[gaddockteeg]

If you get fired, I think it would be more that the small firm doesnt have enough work to go around - rather than you being bad. The distinction is irrelevant for your purposes but meh,

how small is small nayways?

[3|ink]

You're not crazy for worrying.

Sorry. I hope it works out.

[ggocat]

Hard to tell without knowing more details and the personalities of the people involved. My guess would be they have a talk with you about your hours and what you can do to improve. Best practice for an employer is to document underperformance and counsel improvement before firing someone. I agree the timing would be unlikely for a firing right before x-mas. But I did know someone fired right before Thanksgiving. I guess it happens.
Good luck, and give us an update tomorrow.

[silenttimer]

The good news is that if the firm is willing to fire you over no fault of your own, then it doesn't sound like a place that you'd want to work at in the long-term anyway. In any event, I feel your pain, as I also would be totally anxious about the meeting. Good luck and keep us updated.

[Anonymous User]

If you get fired, I think it would be more that the small firm doesnt have enough work to go around - rather than you being bad. The distinction is irrelevant for your purposes but meh,

how small is small nayways?

Firm is about 15 attorneys.

I talked to the only other associate here and he said this sounds like they are going to tell me to pick up my workload in 2016, but that he couldn't guarantee anything. He said he's never met with the board about anything and that this is pretty unusual.

Head is currently spinning and I'm just staring out the window.

[Anonymous User]

If you get fired, I think it would be more that the small firm doesnt have enough work to go around - rather than you being bad. The distinction is irrelevant for your purposes but meh,

how small is small nayways?

Firm is about 15 attorneys.

I talked to the only other associate here and he said this sounds like they are going to tell me to pick up my workload in 2016, but that he couldn't guarantee anything. He said he's never met with the board about anything and that this is pretty unusual.

Head is currently spinning and I'm just staring out the window.

That sucks and I think most of us here would be feeling the same way you are feeling. Hang in there.

[LeDique]

Have someone call the firm and try to set up some kind of appointment with you for 2 weeks in the future. See what happens.

[Anonymous User]

They're not going to fire you. That would have happened today if it was going to happen. You get meetings calendared for "shape up" talks. You just get brought in immediately to get fired meanwhile. They don't delay 24 hours.

[Anonymous User]

Have someone call the firm and try to set up some kind of appointment with you for 2 weeks in the future. See what happens.

OP here. Have been working closely with a partner for the past month who is retiring December 2016. He just came in and gave me a huge assignment due next Monday. He's not on the board, but he's been at the firm since 1979 and there's a zero percent chance he'd not be "in" on any hiring/firing decision.

Never been so happy to probably be working on Christmas day.

Tomorrow should still be a bit weird, though. I'll keep you guys posted.

[jrass]

Have someone call the firm and try to set up some kind of appointment with you for 2 weeks in the future. See what happens.

OP here. Have been working closely with a partner for the past month who is retiring December 2016. He just came in and gave me a huge assignment due next Monday. He's not on the board, but he's been at the firm since 1979 and there's a zero percent chance he'd not be "in" on any hiring/firing decision.

Never been so happy to probably be working on Christmas day.

Tomorrow should still be a bit weird, though. I'll keep you guys posted.

Nice, congrats. I disagree with the previous post about not wanting to work somewhere that will let you go for things outside of your control like not having enough work. I think this is relatively common in any office, which is part of why no legal job is 100% secure.

[3|ink]

Glad to hear it.

[gaddockteeg]

Have someone call the firm and try to set up some kind of appointment with you for 2 weeks in the future. See what happens.

OP here. Have been working closely with a partner for the past month who is retiring December 2016. He just came in and gave me a huge assignment due next Monday. He's not on the board, but he's been at the firm since 1979 and there's a zero percent chance he'd not be "in" on any hiring/firing decision.

Never been so happy to probably be working on Christmas day.

Tomorrow should still be a bit weird, though. I'll keep you guys posted.

Super happy for you OP.

[smallfirmassociate]

Perhaps they just want your opinion on whether to give ham or wine out to the secretaries on Christmas Eve? Good luck.

[Anonymous User]

They're not going to fire you. That would have happened today if it was going to happen. You get meetings calendared for "shape up" talks. You just get brought in immediately to get fired meanwhile. They don't delay 24 hours.

This is the right advice. If you were going to get fired tomorrow, then they wouldn't have waited and you would be getting fired right now. But if you get the "shape up" talk (or the "market projection is too weak to support our associate headcount" talk) then prepare to lose your job next month, the end of the quarter, or whenever it is that they say that they will review the decision. Update your resume, spend some time thinking about your options, collect your billing records and make a list of all of your clients for a future conflicts check, etc. All that stuff that you know that you really should be doing all along, but that you probably haven't been doing. This is also the time to clear your browser cache and get anything personal off your work computer. Three possibilities:

1) Nothing happens. The market picks up, you shape up, someone else quits unexpectedly and saves your job. Whatever it is, you don't lose your job, but you will have already put in the work to update your resume and now you will be ready to act when some attractive offer comes your way.
2) You find a new and better opportunity and abandon ship. They don't have to fire you and you don't have to get fired. Everyone wins. They'll give you a pat on the back, a good reference, and maybe even let you burn some vacation days as you countdown to your last day.
3) You get fired. It will suck, but it's just business. You may get severance or some time to job hunt from your office, because at the end of the day, they don't actually want to burn their bridge with you. They don't want you to be pissed off and litigious and if an extra month of salary would make you happy, then it is a cheap price to pay to keep you on good terms on the off chance that you refer some business to the firm later in your career. On the plus side, if you've gotten your resume updated, you'll be ready to start hustling right away.

[Anonymous User]

They're not going to fire you. That would have happened today if it was going to happen. You get meetings calendared for "shape up" talks. You just get brought in immediately to get fired meanwhile. They don't delay 24 hours.

This is the right advice. If you were going to get fired tomorrow, then they wouldn't have waited and you would be getting fired right now. But if you get the "shape up" talk (or the "market projection is too weak to support our associate headcount" talk) then prepare to lose your job next month, the end of the quarter, or whenever it is that they say that they will review the decision. Update your resume, spend some time thinking about your options, collect your billing records and make a list of all of your clients for a future conflicts check, etc. All that stuff that you know that you really should be doing all along, but that you probably haven't been doing. This is also the time to clear your browser cache and get anything personal off your work computer. Three possibilities:

1) Nothing happens. The market picks up, you shape up, someone else quits unexpectedly and saves your job. Whatever it is, you don't lose your job, but you will have already put in the work to update your resume and now you will be ready to act when some attractive offer comes your way.
2) You find a new and better opportunity and abandon ship. They don't have to fire you and you don't have to get fired. Everyone wins. They'll give you a pat on the back, a good reference, and maybe even let you burn some vacation days as you countdown to your last day.
3) You get fired. It will suck, but it's just business. You may get severance or some time to job hunt from your office, because at the end of the day, they don't actually want to burn their bridge with you. They don't want you to be pissed off and litigious and if an extra month of salary would make you happy, then it is a cheap price to pay to keep you on good terms on the off chance that you refer some business to the firm later in your career. On the plus side, if you've gotten your resume updated, you'll be ready to start hustling right away.

Thanks for the advice. The firm has a lot of older partners and there are apparently a lot of special contracts that are making business weird right now. I've had more than one partner tell me that there's a structural disincentive to give me work.

I'll update tomorrow.

[zot1]

Have someone call the firm and try to set up some kind of appointment with you for 2 weeks in the future. See what happens.

OP here. Have been working closely with a partner for the past month who is retiring December 2016. He just came in and gave me a huge assignment due next Monday. He's not on the board, but he's been at the firm since 1979 and there's a zero percent chance he'd not be "in" on any hiring/firing decision.

Never been so happy to probably be working on Christmas day.

Tomorrow should still be a bit weird, though. I'll keep you guys posted.

Nice, congrats. I disagree with the previous post about not wanting to work somewhere that will let you go for things outside of your control like not having enough work. I think this is relatively common in any office, which is part of why no legal job is 100% secure.

I mean... Government.

OP, good luck and keep us posted. We are pulling for you!

[Anonymous User]

OP here...

So, the main thrust of the meeting was that the firm perceived that I had a general lack of enthusiasm for being a lawyer. They pointed to a couple (admittedly) lazy but big mistakes I made this past year (e.g., didn't respond to a big client's email while I was at a CLE). They also were very curious as to why I didn't ask questions all the time, why I wasn't hunting down work more, etc.

I basically owned that this has been a frustrating year due to my lack of work: told them I failed to communicate about my lack of work, failed to follow up on assignments, failed to follow up on files, etc. Basically owned everything.

They obviously took that well, so I followed up with just being candid about my lack of work. I told them a couple stories that illustrate why I'm lacking work and they said they've all experienced the same thing, and that they as a board will do a few things to get work flowing more in my direction.

Things got a little weird when they asked if I planned on staying here for a long time. I said yes, of course, because what else was I supposed to say.

Basically this was just a kick up my ass.

And the meeting ended with them giving me my Christmas bonus.

Time to get to work.

[cheaptilts]

Good to hear things turned out alright

[bear patrol]

Glad to hear things turned out ok and hope you enjoy the christmas bonus!

[Traynor Brah]

Congrats OP. Sounds like they think highly of you, too, to go through that trouble and show concern for you.

[rpupkin]

Congrats OP. Sounds like they think highly of you, too, to go through that trouble and show concern for you.

OP: It's obviously good you're not fired, and it sounds like your firm is willing to give you a chance, but I don't share Traynor's interpretation of the firm's attitude towards you. A lawyer who gets the talk you just got is not highly thought of. On the contrary, you're on thin ice and won't last another year unless you change your attitude and approach. I think you know that.

[Anonymous User]

Congrats OP. Sounds like they think highly of you, too, to go through that trouble and show concern for you.

OP: It's obviously good you're not fired, and it sounds like your firm is willing to give you a chance, but I don't share Traynor's interpretation of the firm's attitude towards you. A lawyer who gets the talk you just got is not highly thought of. On the contrary, you're on thin ice and won't last another year unless you change your attitude and approach. I think you know that.

OP here. 100% agree with rpupkin. I kind of made a quick post when I got back to my desk earlier, but the very first thing they said was something along the lines of, "Well, we're reviewing some year end things and felt we needed to have a chat with you because, quite frankly, we don't think you have a great enthusiasm for the practice of law." And things just kind of went from there. They were very blunt with several criticisms. And then their last question was whether I wanted to stay there long term, and the way it came off almost sounded like they thought I might be considering leaving the practice of law entirely.

It's hard to argue with them. Since some of my bigger cases settled in August, I've just been very apathetic and coasting. I'm just frustrated at the lack of work from the guys in the practice area that I'm interested in. It's been hard for me to be motivated to come to work and work on a random PI file, research some condominium issue, draft a random arbitration response in a construction dispute, etc. One week I got tied into a three day project involving research of a states admin regs of fireworks.

I got all this off my chest though and so that's better than my silent frustration with my door closed. The biggest thing I can recommend to someone who is similarly apathetic is to stay on top of your files and do your own follow up. I've been doing piecemeal assignments instead of drafting briefs (which I like to do) solely because I turn in an assignment and then never follow up.

I've come to that realization as the day has gone on, and I fully intend to turn things around in 2016; but I'm also hoping the partners reciprocate to the things I referenced in our meeting this morning.

[mvp99]

Congrats OP. Sounds like they think highly of you, too, to go through that trouble and show concern for you.

OP: It's obviously good you're not fired, and it sounds like your firm is willing to give you a chance, but I don't share Traynor's interpretation of the firm's attitude towards you. A lawyer who gets the talk you just got is not highly thought of. On the contrary, you're on thin ice and won't last another year unless you change your attitude and approach. I think you know that.

OP here. 100% agree with rpupkin. I kind of made a quick post when I got back to my desk earlier, but the very first thing they said was something along the lines of, "Well, we're reviewing some year end things and felt we needed to have a chat with you because, quite frankly, we don't think you have a great enthusiasm for the practice of law." And things just kind of went from there. They were very blunt with several criticisms. And then their last question was whether I wanted to stay there long term, and the way it came off almost sounded like they thought I might be considering leaving the practice of law entirely.

It's hard to argue with them. Since some of my bigger cases settled in August, I've just been very apathetic and coasting. I'm just frustrated at the lack of work from the guys in the practice area that I'm interested in. It's been hard for me to be motivated to come to work and work on a random PI file, research some condominium issue, draft a random arbitration response in a construction dispute, etc. One week I got tied into a three day project involving research of a states admin regs of fireworks.

I got all this off my chest though and so that's better than my silent frustration with my door closed. The biggest thing I can recommend to someone who is similarly apathetic is to stay on top of your files and do your own follow up. I've been doing piecemeal assignments instead of drafting briefs (which I like to do) solely because I turn in an assignment and then never follow up.

I've come to that realization as the day has gone on, and I fully intend to turn things around in 2016; but I'm also hoping the partners reciprocate to the things I referenced in our meeting this morning.

So tbc the real issue was that you were not getting the type of work you wanted, not that there wasn't enough work to go around or that at least there was something that you just avoided doing...