Advice For Transition Forum

[Anonymous User]

Hello,

Hope someone can help and I appreciate all advice and feedback. I am a 2L at a top 10 law school on the east coast. I grew up elsewhere on the east coast, but for years now it has been my dream to live in San Francisco. I didn't get in to Stanford or Berkeley unfortunately. I have absolutely zero connections to San Francisco other than visiting a few times and absolutely loving the city. In retrospect that obviously was not enough.

At OCI after my first year I had approximately 10 screeners with San Francisco firms. I did well my first year of law school and am in the top 15%. I also consider myself to be a good interviewer and I believe that I carry myself well. Every single screener seemed to go very well except for the inevitable "why San Francisco?" question. I don't have anything on my resume about San Francisco. I told them how much I loved the city blah blah blah. I only got 2 callbacks out of the 10. Both of those callbacks went phenomenally well. I really connected with the people I spoke with and I loved both firms. Every person again asked me "why San Francisco" but this time the people did not seem nearly as skeptical about my answer. They basically laughed and said "well of course who wouldn't want to live here??" I of course agreed. I did not receive an offer from either, which was crushing.

At this point I was seriously doubting myself after the flameout. Mass mailing and reaching out to every other San Francisco firm led to absolutely nothing. I also did 5 callbacks with New York firms and received offers from all 5. I ended up accepting an offer with a V10 in New York. I liked all the people at the firm and I liked the firm itself, but frankly I don't want to live in New York long term. The way I see it, New York and San Francisco are the two most expensive places in the entire country factoring in taxes and housing, and they seem almost comparable to each other in overall cost. Plus salaries are the same at both, so if I am going to be living in one I would much rather it be San Francisco.

Ok sorry for all of the background information. My question is, how do I make this dream to practice law in San Francisco a reality? I am going to work very hard as a summer associate in New York, and I also feel like my classes this summer went very well. I worked hard and I am fairly confident that I will end up raising my GPA after this semester's grades are released. I still won't have any San Francisco connections after this year or summer though. I see myself as someone who wants to work in a law firm long term rather than just two or three years. However, I would much rather stay at one firm than try lateraling after a couple of years. Therefore, I am thinking about targeting San Francisco firms later in the summer as I am finishing up my summer associate. Any advice? I truly believe that the biggest issue I faced was the lack of connections, as I had a lot of success interviewing in New York (where I also have zero connections) where they do not seem to care about connections.

Just for the record, I am grateful to have a job at a great firm. But my heart is set elsewhere. And no unfortunately my summer firm does not have a San Francisco office, which sucks. Thanks in advance for any help, and I hope this post doesn't come off the wrong way and make me look rude or something.

[wiz]

Keep your grades up, and try to switch firms during 3L OCI. It's not a guarantee, but you're exactly the kind of candidate that 3L OCI firms are looking to hire when they have available positions.

Also, make up some damn ties. Stop saying you have zero connections to SF. Your fiancee is from SF, and you used to live there [in nearby suburb] before moving to the East Coast. You love the Giants, Warriors, and 49ers.

[Anonymous User]

Lol I actually do like the Warriors. But I'm definitely not comfortable making up ties. For one, I want to work at a big law firm long term. I know a lot of people on here will think that is crazy, but I believe that I will fit in. I have zero evidence or support to backup false ties. I have no fiancé either unfortunately ha. Plus, I am a terrible liar and I would just be really afraid of getting caught in a lie somewhere down the road. Also, and maybe this is naive of me, I would just feel wrong about intentionally lying to manipulate someone into hiring me. If I don't keep my integrity in this world then what do I have left?

[Anonymous User]

I will second the above poster's advice about ties.

You might try to reach out to alumni who practice in SF and get their take, if you haven't already. They're going to give you a better indication than strangers on the internet about what SF firms are looking for and what your chances are without ties.

And from what I remember this year, I didn't see a lot of 3L OCI movement from SF firms. So you may have to lateral after 1-2 years.

[hangingtree]

Keep your grades up, and try to switch firms during 3L OCI. It's not a guarantee, but you're exactly the kind of candidate that 3L OCI firms are looking to hire when they have available positions.

+1. 3L OCI is a solid option. The narrative of "I struck out at 2L OCI for SF and now I'm back with a top NY offer" will carry you very far. Though you won't ever look better than a candidate who wants to go back home, doing work as a 3L with offer in hand shows true commitment to the idea of moving to SF.

I also wouldn't feel comfortable making up ties, but I'd definitely use the next 9 months to create some ties. Go there for your winter break. Go after your SA/3L OCI. Give them something to make them believe you don't just "think" you'll like SF.

On some other creative/radical solutions. I wouldn't consider a non-biglaw split in SF, because the added benefit would be small compared with the forfeiture of dough. Though it would show you have a major interest in SF, the 3L market for SF will likely, I assume, be small (single digits?). Not worth it. You would maybe move past a few other candidates, but there's a good chance you'll have found success or failed anyway.

Do a semester exchange at Berkeley/Stanford to show your interest. Same relatively small increase to likelihood of success, but without the downside of having to leave your SA post. Perhaps this would be a net win for you anyway, since you seem to love SF. (Note: I have no idea how semester exchanges actually work though.)

[Anonymous User]

WhyDO you want to work in SF?

Yes, it is a parochial market. BUT, the exact reasons that people usually think they want to move to SF from across the country are also the exact same reasons most people that are actually from the Bay Area hate these sorts of people.

Further, in my experience, Bay Area big law firms are made up of a substantial amount of ppl from the Bay Area as opposed to transplants.

I grew up the Bay Area and I've seen countless assholes think they want to be in SF and think SF is representative of the Bay Area. It's not.

DM me if u want an opinion on your specifics.

[legit]

This might be a dumb idea, but is there any way you could volunteer for a startup in the area remotely? Not sure if this would beneficial or how to find a company that needs help from a law student.

[barkschool]

Does your firm have a SF office? Some firms allow a move after a year or three

[Tiago Splitter]

Further, in my experience, Bay Area big law firms are made up of a substantial amount of ppl from the Bay Area as opposed to transplants.

I work at a firm in the Bay Area that seems to be made up almost entirely of transplants. A lot of the Bay Area offices sprung up during the tech boom of the 90's so there are plenty of partners who started their careers elsewhere.

OP at the very least let them know you have extended family and close friends in the area and just as importantly focus on why the work suits you. Not all Bay Area firms do the same thing so make sure to tailor your answer to the specific office you're interviewing with.

[El Pollito]

firms are way less skeptical about ties when you are trying to lateral to norcal, so just keep your grades up and try again

[RaceJudicata]

Make up the damn ties. "My dad's family is from California and my mom and him want to retire here." No one is ever going to check up on this to see if it pans out, much less remember it 1-2 years from now

[Anonymous User]

Thanks everyone for the feedback. Much appreciated! And I am interested in transactional work. I was especially interested in VC work, which I made sure to tell the firms such as Cooley since I know that is their specialty. I wanted to get in to our VC clinic for next semester but it was full, which sucks. I agree with the sentiment though that firms should be less skeptical about my lack of ties if I am approaching them again for a full-time position after having an offer from a V10 New York office. They should be less worried that I just want to spend a summer vacationing in San Francisco. So at what point during the summer do I start reaching out to these SF firms to gauge their interest and make myself known? After my SA has finished? Before OCI? During my SA?

[ballouttacontrol]

August through October or so, maybe even after that. Depends on the firm

[Tiago Splitter]

I'd start in July.

[Anonymous User]

I'd start in July.

+1

[20160810]

Ties to anywhere in northern california should suffice if you can make a case for them. I'm from about 2 hours away from SF and wasn't asked once in maybe two dozen interviews why I wanted to work there.

[El Pollito]

passing the CA bar in advance also helps, so i'd take it in feb following the ny bar if you can

[Anonymous User]

Not to hijack OP's thread, but what exactly are "good ties" for bay area? Are we talking "I worked there for a few years after undergrad and all my friends/gf is there" or are we talking "I lived on the same street for 18 years before college and can tell you which elementary school I went to"?

I'm trying to get back to the bay area and posts like this give me major panic attacks.

[20160810]

Not to hijack OP's thread, but what exactly are "good ties" for bay area? Are we talking "I worked there for a few years after undergrad and all my friends/gf is there" or are we talking "I lived on the same street for 18 years before college and can tell you which elementary school I went to"?

I'm trying to get back to the bay area and posts like this give me major panic attacks.

Cal or Stanford UG is probably ideal if you didn't grow up nearby. Sports is a good soft tie. I talked about the Giants in about of my interviews.

[Anonymous User]

One very important consideration that I'm surprised no one has pointed out yet is that the OP wants to be in SF because they love the city, but the work OP wants (transactional, particularly VC) is most likely going to be in SV (if VC, definitely in SV).

OP, since you haven't spent much time in the Bay Area, you might not be aware that SV and SF are 1) far apart and 2) exceptionally different. SF is a true city with tons to do, endless great restaurants, and decent public transit. SV is an absurdly overpriced suburban hellscape with mediocre public transit and little culture. The only thing SV has going for it relative to SF is weather (it's much sunnier/warmer in SV than SF).

Most biglaw transactional work in the Bay Area is out of SV. There are some exceptions–K&E's SF office does lots of PE work, and MoFo's SF office has a decent-sized M&A practice, for example. But for VC and related work, my understanding is that it's basically all in SV. And, for the firms that have both SF and SV offices, there's often a long waiting list to move from the SV office to the SF office–a friend at Fenwick has been trying to move offices for years now, and there are still many people ahead of that person.

Yes, you could live in SF and commute to SV. But you'll be spending 3-4 hours a day commuting (this is not an exaggeration–traffic in the Bay Area is now just as bad as LA), which, when you're working biglaw hours, is going to take an enormous toll on you. At least a few (and probably more, I just don't know firsthand) SV biglaw offices have rooms that are basically sleep rooms for overworked associates who can't bear the thought of driving an hour north to SF at midnight and an hour+ back if they have to be back at 7 AM the next morning (and if they have to be back at 8-9 AM, they'll be spending closer to 2 hours since the worst traffic is from SF into SV in the morning/from SV into SF in the afternoon).

Don't make the rookie mistake of assuming that SV and SF are interchangeable. This is something you really need to research before trying to make a move.

[El Pollito]

Not to hijack OP's thread, but what exactly are "good ties" for bay area? Are we talking "I worked there for a few years after undergrad and all my friends/gf is there" or are we talking "I lived on the same street for 18 years before college and can tell you which elementary school I went to"?

I'm trying to get back to the bay area and posts like this give me major panic attacks.

i spent 28 years in ny and my only tie was bf. i did not get grilled on ties at all during lateral interviews.

[Anonymous User]

Ties matter much less when lateralling, as firms assume you have a legit reason for wanting to be there (why else would you move). Whether you can find something 3L year depends on markets conditions, but if you get a year or two at a NY V-10 you should be in really good shape to lateral.

[Anonymous User]

One very important consideration that I'm surprised no one has pointed out yet is that the OP wants to be in SF because they love the city, but the work OP wants (transactional, particularly VC) is most likely going to be in SV (if VC, definitely in SV).

OP, since you haven't spent much time in the Bay Area, you might not be aware that SV and SF are 1) far apart and 2) exceptionally different. SF is a true city with tons to do, endless great restaurants, and decent public transit. SV is an absurdly overpriced suburban hellscape with mediocre public transit and little culture. The only thing SV has going for it relative to SF is weather (it's much sunnier/warmer in SV than SF).

Most biglaw transactional work in the Bay Area is out of SV. There are some exceptions–K&E's SF office does lots of PE work, and MoFo's SF office has a decent-sized M&A practice, for example. But for VC and related work, my understanding is that it's basically all in SV. And, for the firms that have both SF and SV offices, there's often a long waiting list to move from the SV office to the SF office–a friend at Fenwick has been trying to move offices for years now, and there are still many people ahead of that person.

Yes, you could live in SF and commute to SV. But you'll be spending 3-4 hours a day commuting (this is not an exaggeration–traffic in the Bay Area is now just as bad as LA), which, when you're working biglaw hours, is going to take an enormous toll on you. At least a few (and probably more, I just don't know firsthand) SV biglaw offices have rooms that are basically sleep rooms for overworked associates who can't bear the thought of driving an hour north to SF at midnight and an hour+ back if they have to be back at 7 AM the next morning (and if they have to be back at 8-9 AM, they'll be spending closer to 2 hours since the worst traffic is from SF into SV in the morning/from SV into SF in the afternoon).

Don't make the rookie mistake of assuming that SV and SF are interchangeable. This is something you really need to research before trying to make a move.

This is really, really important.

Also, OP's assumption that NY and SF are comparably expensive when considering total cost of living is very, very misguided. As someone who was born and raised in the Bay Area and summered in SF, if I heard this I would definitely be skeptical of how serious the person was about moving to the Bay. I actually turned down my offer to go to a lower COL market. While NY and SF/SV rent can be comparable, looking for a place within walking distance to your work in SF or SV would be a total pipe dream. SF public transportation is good for CA standards but nowhere near NYC/Philly/DC/Chicago (my commute over the summer from North Beach to SoMa was an hour door-to-door on public transportation) and LOL at SV public transportation. Also, living in FiDi (where most law firms are located) is less than desirable and living in some adjacent neighborhoods is pretty much like signing yourself up for a hike every morning (SF is VERY hilly). The reality is that most residents of SF/SV own and drive their car to work. This means that anyone considering living there has to take into account that they're paying NYC rent prices PLUS car payments + car insurance + gas + car maintenance + parking fees. Depending on your taste in cars this could easily add an additional $500-$1000 to your monthly expenses. You'd think you could just solve the COL issue by moving into a neighboring suburb and BARTing in but decent apartments out there will run you a pretty penny as well, plus BART stops running at 1AM so there goes your nightlife if you choose to take this route.