Advice: Asking to be *bumped* up to actual class year Forum

[Anonymous User]

2013 graduate. I worked at a midsize niche practice firm after graduation for about 8 months and then “lateraled” to a V10 firm (into a totally different practice area, also sort of niche – i.e., not general capital markets). Offer call told me “you’d come on as a first year associate” – didn’t think anything about it at the time b/c I was a first year associate still (for another few months). Didn’t realize they meant would be brought on as a 2014 associate – although it was in my offer letter but I was obviously just happy to be trading up firms so early.

So currently still considered a first year – even though been working at new firm for 1.7 months and graduated in 2013 – will be considered second year come January (should be third year based on 2013 graduation). Now it really bugs me that I’m still considered a first year associate – even though I’m training other first years. It’s obviously 90% the cash – but also just the point. I actually had a lot of experience in this new niche area as well – and not to toot my own horn – but I’m doing very well. I am often told that I work at a senior associate level, I am on pace to bill just under 3000 hours for this year, and I have already been given the role of last review on one of my deal programs (every other team has at least a 5th year doing this). It also feels great when other 2013 graduates (who are getting paid more than me) leave the office every day at 7PM and I’m here till past midnight every night doing much much more complicated projects.

In any event, is it crazy to bring this up and ask to be “bumped up.” I’m not really asking to be bumped up ahead of my class year, just to be given the right class year based on graduation. If I do ask, what is best approach? Reach out to a senior I am close with first for advice? Right to the partners I work with? Associate development?

Thanks and sorry that this sounds so pretentious probably, but feeling bitter at work every day is not a good feeling

[psu2016]

I get that you feel bitter but this is exactly what you signed up for. You didn't make it to the big firm out the gate, and this, I guess, is the price you pay for taking the scenic route. It sucks but I think you have to lie in the bed you made for yourself.

[itbdvorm]

2013 graduate. I worked at a midsize niche practice firm after graduation for about 8 months and then “lateraled” to a V10 firm (into a totally different practice area, also sort of niche – i.e., not general capital markets). Offer call told me “you’d come on as a first year associate” – didn’t think anything about it at the time b/c I was a first year associate still (for another few months). Didn’t realize they meant would be brought on as a 2014 associate – although it was in my offer letter but I was obviously just happy to be trading up firms so early.

So currently still considered a first year – even though been working at new firm for 1.7 months and graduated in 2013 – will be considered second year come January (should be third year based on 2013 graduation). Now it really bugs me that I’m still considered a first year associate – even though I’m training other first years. It’s obviously 90% the cash – but also just the point. I actually had a lot of experience in this new niche area as well – and not to toot my own horn – but I’m doing very well. I am often told that I work at a senior associate level, I am on pace to bill just under 3000 hours for this year, and I have already been given the role of last review on one of my deal programs (every other team has at least a 5th year doing this). It also feels great when other 2013 graduates (who are getting paid more than me) leave the office every day at 7PM and I’m here till past midnight every night doing much much more complicated projects.

In any event, is it crazy to bring this up and ask to be “bumped up.” I’m not really asking to be bumped up ahead of my class year, just to be given the right class year based on graduation. If I do ask, what is best approach? Reach out to a senior I am close with first for advice? Right to the partners I work with? Associate development?

Thanks and sorry that this sounds so pretentious probably, but feeling bitter at work every day is not a good feeling

I'd ask.

[jimmythecatdied6]

Ungrateful millennials strike again... Why don't you keep doing the magnificent job you are and stick to the terms you initially agreed to?

[Anonymous User]

2013 graduate. I worked at a midsize niche practice firm after graduation for about 8 months and then “lateraled” to a V10 firm (into a totally different practice area, also sort of niche – i.e., not general capital markets). Offer call told me “you’d come on as a first year associate” – didn’t think anything about it at the time b/c I was a first year associate still (for another few months). Didn’t realize they meant would be brought on as a 2014 associate – although it was in my offer letter but I was obviously just happy to be trading up firms so early.

So currently still considered a first year – even though been working at new firm for 1.7 months and graduated in 2013 – will be considered second year come January (should be third year based on 2013 graduation). Now it really bugs me that I’m still considered a first year associate – even though I’m training other first years. It’s obviously 90% the cash – but also just the point. I actually had a lot of experience in this new niche area as well – and not to toot my own horn – but I’m doing very well. I am often told that I work at a senior associate level, I am on pace to bill just under 3000 hours for this year, and I have already been given the role of last review on one of my deal programs (every other team has at least a 5th year doing this). It also feels great when other 2013 graduates (who are getting paid more than me) leave the office every day at 7PM and I’m here till past midnight every night doing much much more complicated projects.

In any event, is it crazy to bring this up and ask to be “bumped up.” I’m not really asking to be bumped up ahead of my class year, just to be given the right class year based on graduation. If I do ask, what is best approach? Reach out to a senior I am close with first for advice? Right to the partners I work with? Associate development?

Thanks and sorry that this sounds so pretentious probably, but feeling bitter at work every day is not a good feeling

I'd ask.

Ask who though. I think I've decided I'm going to speak up but not sure if its best to first talk to a more senior associate i am close with for advice and them potentially backing me; go straight to the partners i work with; or discuss with associate development.

[Anonymous User]

Ungrateful millennials strike again... Why don't you keep doing the magnificent job you are and stick to the terms you initially agreed to?

I expected responses like these. Thank you!

[psu2016]

Ethial/pretentiousness issues aside, I would also be concerned as a partner that you had some sort of inability to understand the nature of an offer and acceptance when the terms are unambiguously laid out in an offer document and you accept them, and you now seem to think you can just ignore those terms because you didn't think about something at the time.

Isn't that what lawyers are supposed to do? Think through decisions of this sort and the potential ramifications of accepting things before they advise their clients (or themselves) to do that?

Not only will you look like a spoiled millenial, but you will also come across as a really inept attorney.

[Anonymous User]

Ethial/pretentiousness issues aside, I would also be concerned as a partner that you had some sort of inability to understand the nature of an offer and acceptance when the terms are unambiguously laid out in an offer document and you accept them, and you now seem to think you can just ignore those terms because you didn't think about something at the time.

Isn't that what lawyers are supposed to do? Think through decisions of this sort and the potential ramifications of accepting things before they advise their clients (or themselves) to do that?

Not only will you look like a spoiled millenial, but you will also come across as a really inept attorney.

No one said I didn't understand the terms of the offer letter. I said that on the offer call, I was told you would be coming on as a first-year associate. And at the time I still was a first year associate, so when i verbally accepted I didn't think anything of it. Obviously I was coming on as a first-year associate because I was one. Once I got the offer letter, I understood and didn't make an issue of it. So again, its not that i want to be bumped up because I didn't think about it at the time. I want to be bumped up because at this point, I have proved myself beyond my actual class year - as noted by multiple people in my group. So asking to be considered my actual class year doesn't seem so dramatic to me.

Also - I am certain that if I lateraled again, I would come on as my actual class year.

Also you spelled millennial* wrong.

[psu2016]

Ethial/pretentiousness issues aside, I would also be concerned as a partner that you had some sort of inability to understand the nature of an offer and acceptance when the terms are unambiguously laid out in an offer document and you accept them, and you now seem to think you can just ignore those terms because you didn't think about something at the time.

Isn't that what lawyers are supposed to do? Think through decisions of this sort and the potential ramifications of accepting things before they advise their clients (or themselves) to do that?

Not only will you look like a spoiled millenial, but you will also come across as a really inept attorney.

No one said I didn't understand the terms of the offer letter. I said that on the offer call, I was told you would be coming on as a first-year associate. And at the time I still was a first year associate, so when i verbally accepted I didn't think anything of it. Obviously I was coming on as a first-year associate because I was one. Once I got the offer letter, I understood and didn't make an issue of it. So again, its not that i want to be bumped up because I didn't think about it at the time. I want to be bumped up because at this point, I have proved myself beyond my actual class year - as noted by multiple people in my group. So asking to be considered my actual class year doesn't seem so dramatic to me.

Also - I am certain that if I lateraled again, I would come on as my actual class year.

Also you spelled millennial* wrong.

Why do you even ask for advice when you're going to do what you're going to do anyway? Do you just need the validation?

Also, most people think they're above average. You probably aren't the all-star you seem to think you are.

[Anonymous User]

Ethial/pretentiousness issues aside, I would also be concerned as a partner that you had some sort of inability to understand the nature of an offer and acceptance when the terms are unambiguously laid out in an offer document and you accept them, and you now seem to think you can just ignore those terms because you didn't think about something at the time.

Isn't that what lawyers are supposed to do? Think through decisions of this sort and the potential ramifications of accepting things before they advise their clients (or themselves) to do that?

Not only will you look like a spoiled millenial, but you will also come across as a really inept attorney.

I don't think this is a case of what's in the offer document, rather it has to do with industry norms. Does anyone's offer letter say, "At the end of year one, following satisfactory reviews, you will be promoted to second-year status?" I wouldn't imagine so...it's just common sense.

I think the OP's expectation was that after either a year as a lawyer or at least with the new firm, s/he would receive the standard promotion. It was reasonable to come in as a first-year, but after say 14 months with the new firm s/he should no longer be considered one, and ideally the firm would raise to second-year comp after the standard 12 months or whatever, even if it was off the usual cycle.

[Rlabo]

I'd ask. You were offered something when you first started to come in as a first year. That was then when they took a risk. Now you're supposedly billing and working at your class level, or higher. This is now. Worst case is likely that they say no. Is it possible that you piss someone off for even asking? Likely would depend on how you asked. Is it possible that you could be fired for it? I seriously doubt it, but crazier things have happened in this world. Best case, you make more money and won't be upset anymore. And if you really think that you could move to another firm that would take you in at your class rate, and you could see being happy there, I don't see a downside. This is business, not a charity. The firm did not do you a favor by hiring you. If you do good work and people like you they'll keep you around. But also remember that it's only up until a certain point. If they can replace you with an equally hard working likable candidate at less cost, they will.

[Anonymous User]

Ethial/pretentiousness issues aside, I would also be concerned as a partner that you had some sort of inability to understand the nature of an offer and acceptance when the terms are unambiguously laid out in an offer document and you accept them, and you now seem to think you can just ignore those terms because you didn't think about something at the time.

Isn't that what lawyers are supposed to do? Think through decisions of this sort and the potential ramifications of accepting things before they advise their clients (or themselves) to do that?

Not only will you look like a spoiled millenial, but you will also come across as a really inept attorney.

No one said I didn't understand the terms of the offer letter. I said that on the offer call, I was told you would be coming on as a first-year associate. And at the time I still was a first year associate, so when i verbally accepted I didn't think anything of it. Obviously I was coming on as a first-year associate because I was one. Once I got the offer letter, I understood and didn't make an issue of it. So again, its not that i want to be bumped up because I didn't think about it at the time. I want to be bumped up because at this point, I have proved myself beyond my actual class year - as noted by multiple people in my group. So asking to be considered my actual class year doesn't seem so dramatic to me.

Also - I am certain that if I lateraled again, I would come on as my actual class year.

Also you spelled millennial* wrong.

Why do you even ask for advice when you're going to do what you're going to do anyway? Do you just need the validation?

Also, most people think they're above average. You probably aren't the all-star you seem to think you are.

This was my question for advice: If I do ask, what is best approach? Reach out to a senior I am close with first for advice? Right to the partners I work with? Associate development?

Also - not saying I'm a superstar. That would be me asking to be bumped ahead of my peers. Just asking to be on the same page as my peers, instead of a year behind.

[JusticeJackson]

.

[Magic Hat]

Why would you want to be bumped back up? You get an extra year before you are pushed out and are being compared and evaluated against people with less experienced (hence the rock star status). If you get bumped up your skillset might go from "above his class year" to "meets expectations" or worse.

[Br3v]

Ethial/pretentiousness issues aside, I would also be concerned as a partner that you had some sort of inability to understand the nature of an offer and acceptance when the terms are unambiguously laid out in an offer document and you accept them, and you now seem to think you can just ignore those terms because you didn't think about something at the time.

Isn't that what lawyers are supposed to do? Think through decisions of this sort and the potential ramifications of accepting things before they advise their clients (or themselves) to do that?

Not only will you look like a spoiled millenial, but you will also come across as a really inept attorney.

Pretty confident OP's partners will not think OP cannot read contracts. Also, if you are an 0L I don't think you can post here (idk if you are).

Maybe, OP, you'd look like a "spoiled millennial" but if you really are performing above class then I think this is a reasonable thing to bring up at review. But it seems like you have a good thing going here and I wonder if it's worth the few extra grand you'd get short term.

[Anonymous User]

Why would you want to be bumped back up? You get an extra year before you are pushed out and are being compared and evaluated against people with less experienced (hence the rock star status). If you get bumped up your skillset might go from "above his class year" to "meets expectations" or worse.

This is a very good point and something that I definitely have thought about. I get to milk being here longer (although milking billing 3000 hours a year for an extra year isn't necessarily a gift). And you're right when compared to people a year below me and less experienced (but technically my year) I perform above average.

I guess b/c i want that 50K bonus quicker. The jump for third years in both bonus and pay is the biggest.

But as noted earlier, it is just a personal feeling of I guess being treated on a lower scale for no reason when I consistently out-bill and out-perform. I don't think I need special treatment because of that, just equal.

[mvp99]

it doesn't make sense to me that the firm benefits from you doing more "advance" work. They would actually benefit if they could bill you as a second year (partner probably writes off fewer hours and you bill at a higher rate) Something's not right here

[trebekismyhero]

Ask if you have a good review. If you don't get reviews from partners, then maybe ask a senior associate that you trust and get their opinion first as to avoid a situation like JusticeJackson described

[PennBull]

Depends on what class year they bill you out as.

[Anonymous User]

it doesn't make sense to me that the firm benefits from you doing more "advance" work. They would actually benefit if they could bill you as a second year (partner probably writes off fewer hours and you bill at a higher rate) Something's not right here

The group is swamped and if you can handle the work, they give it to you. I know people often think they are better than they are, and I by no means think I am a superstar associate - there is absolutely 0 chance of me becoming partner -its a niche group and I have no desire to or connections to get clients. But I am not lying when I say I am staffed on one of our clients deal flow as the last review (and until January am still a first year) - this is not typical at all.

And I honestly don't think anyone (including the partners) realize what level I am considered - or think about it. A counsel has actually said "what year are you like a second, you are basically acting as a senior associate now."

Never thought about it as you said though, that it would actually be a benefit because they can bill me at a higher rate. I'm billed as a first year (and in January will start as second). I also am on pace to bill literally 2950 hours this year. That is probably 500+ hours more than the average for my group.

[PennBull]

Yeah fuck it, I'd broach the subject with a senior assoc you trust

You seem decidedly un-aspie to phrase it appropriately in a discussion with the partner(s) if it comes down to it

[Anonymous User]

Yeah fuck it, I'd broach the subject with a senior assoc you trust

You seem decidedly un-aspie to phrase it appropriately in a discussion with the partner(s) if it comes down to it

OP. LMAO @ "un-aspie"


Does anyone else see the advantage of being a year lower as a previous poster mentioned? (being compared to associates with less experience, more time before getting kicked out, etc.)?

[PennBull]

Does anyone else see the advantage of being a year lower as a previous poster mentioned? (being compared to associates with less experience, more time before getting kicked out, etc.)?

I don't. Take the money. Not that big a difference between a single class year as you go forward.

[Anonymous User]

Does anyone else see the advantage of being a year lower as a previous poster mentioned? (being compared to associates with less experience, more time before getting kicked out, etc.)?

I don't. Take the money. Not that big a difference between a single class year as you go forward.

agreed.

[Anonymous User]

Just ask. All this risk aversion in this thread is crazy.

Partners dont care or notice. you're not going to get fired from a V10 by asking for a class year bump if your work is good and you're billing that much.

just say you came in a year under, you've outperformed that year and you think you deserve a bump. dont mention any confusion about starting a year under when making your case.

If they say no, look into lateraling to a similar firm that has your niche and slow down. 2900 hours is effing insane even at a V10, why are you billing that much? You aren't getting anything for it. at 2900 hours you should be turning down work left and right.