Biglawyers. Are any of you happy? Was this job better than others you've had? Forum

[Anonymous User]

Just found out that someone I know that did FedClerk quit Biglaw after like three months. Was top 5% at a T20.

I'm pretty sure that this meant forfeiting the clerkship bonus. It was an extremely prestigious firm.

I can't imagine how bad Biglaw was if you did all that work to get it, and yet you couldn't stand it for 3 months. I think I could stand anything for at least a year or two.

At my NY V25 firm, 3 first years left within the first 6 months, and 5 of the 2nd years were gone before the 1.5 year mark.

[Anonymous User]

This may out me because I'm one of only a handful of people strange enough to enjoy studying the psychology of different animals more than perusing facebook when I slack off yet normal enough to fit in (at least superficially speaking).

One thing that never gets mentioned but that every law student aspiring to do big law should prepare themselves for is that their self-esteem will yo-yo. You know, one of the main reasons humans and dogs get along so well is that we are both "pack" animals who find confidence and happiness largely from our status within our group. When we feel our place in a group is threatened or jumps up and down we get a bit more stressed and unhappy.

Because of the amount of time you spend at the office, most people will spend more time with their work family than their family-family. The result of this is that there's 100% going to be some overlap between your professional and personal lives, and if you're a normal social person you will undoubtedly base your sense of self, in part, based on the group you're in and your status within that group.

You can see where this is going. Most of us have always been perceived as one of the smartest and most competent people in our social circles for our entire lives so jumping into a situation where we're on of the dumbest and most incompetent can be emotionally taxing. When you factor in that for every two steps forward you will take at least one step backward, your mood and perspective are likely to go up and down even if you are cognizant of what is happening, and trying to avoid reacting to it. There is also the fact that most of the people above you feel the same way, and on a lot of cases/deals you deal with disorganization and poor leadership, and this in turn creates more stress for the people below them, which results in a domino effect where everyone winds up being more stressed.

[Danger Zone]

Spot on analysis

[WhiteCollarBlueShirt]

But the money is good!

Obviously know you're joking, but as a launching point:

If you're in NYC, the money is not good. This is probably the worst lie propagated of them all. $160K compared to other white collar jobs in NYC with similar hours, stress and "prestige" often have all-in comp well into the 200's... some of these positions are pre-MBA, but many never require or expect any money to be spent on graduate degrees (just 2-3 years of also soul crushing, but relevant paid work experience).

Before paying money to law school to get increased earning potential, people should consider that base-salary is only 1 very limited picture of true comp.

[Desert Fox]

The problem isn't that biglaw is filled with the best of the best. It's that there is no team comraderee. People are just looking to write you off for little mistakes. 90% of people have this toxic fear of fucking up. It's pure anxiety.

[Anonymous User]

The problem isn't that biglaw is filled with the best of the best. It's that there is no team comraderee. People are just looking to write you off for little mistakes. 90% of people have this toxic fear of fucking up. It's pure anxiety.

Very true. The turnover is so fast and furious that any good team chemistry quickly ends because new faces show up and familiar ones inevitably leave all too soon. Second, firms have so many archaic and needless incentive structures in place that foster toxic competition and a focus on the individual. Finally, the fact that you have no guaranteed pipeline of work makes it all the more difficult. If a partner doesn't like you, even if its for one tiny little mishap, he/she may very well just never work with you again, no questions asked. So it fosters an environment where people have little incentive to iron out issues and help each other grow. Thats why its SO important to find not just the right firm, but the right group and "bubble" to practice in, to better insulate you from this toxicity.

[krads153]

But the money is good!

Obviously know you're joking, but as a launching point:

If you're in NYC, the money is not good. This is probably the worst lie propagated of them all. $160K compared to other white collar jobs in NYC with similar hours, stress and "prestige" often have all-in comp well into the 200's... some of these positions are pre-MBA, but many never require or expect any money to be spent on graduate degrees (just 2-3 years of also soul crushing, but relevant paid work experience).

Before paying money to law school to get increased earning potential, people should consider that base-salary is only 1 very limited picture of true comp.

Yeah, the money isn't that good in NYC. It's like making 60k in a lot of flyover places when looking at COL, except you're working way more than someone would in that 60k/year job.

[Anonymous User]

The problem isn't that biglaw is filled with the best of the best. It's that there is no team comraderee. People are just looking to write you off for little mistakes. 90% of people have this toxic fear of fucking up. It's pure anxiety.

I'm the AP from above (the weirdo with the dog studies), and I researched reasons people normally leave after a year and it seemed to be more a personal feeling that they can't cut it than the firm ever communicating this with them. It's a little bit of a double edged sword because if you're called out on something, and simply implement the work product lesson you've learned the person who yelled at you gets pissed, but if you respond emotionally then it's awkward.

There's also the fact that everything in our society, both good and bad tends to be passive-aggressive, and the fact that passive-aggressiveness is a learned trait rather than a genetic one. Namely, it takes effort to be passive-aggressive. When people get tired or past their bursting point the passive-aggressiveness becomes aggressiveness, and this freaks people out. This is one of the many reasons why growing up in a dysfunctional household is integral to big law success. If your parents didn't go through an ugly divorce or are normal then consider creating a dysfunctional family of your own to properly desensitize you to madness. This is actual advice, but not intended to be medical or psychological advice.

I would also add and say that I am happy or at least happier than I was before I started. I also love my law firm and wouldn't leave yet even if I could get more money and work less hours despite knowing full well I'd be fired in a second if it benefited the bottom line. My situation is unique, however, and if factors I won't disclose did not exist then I'm sure I'd hate it as much as everyone else. That said, they do exist and I legitimately hope to make my firm more money, even if it's only $1 more than would be made if I wasn't here.

[Desert Fox]

Lol at the choice being between passive agresion and active agresion.

[Anonymous User]

Lol at the choice being between passive agresion and active agresion.

Well all of big law is really a game of first impressions. Fit and the like are measured off 20 minute conversations so manipulation skills are taken as a proxy for social skills, and you have a large percentage of people with 0 awareness of their body language out and about with the result being a lot of people suck at poker and you get more aggression. It's not that the people are meaner, but that some of them convey hostility despite their best efforts to be nice. This doesn't make them bad people any more than an Autistic person having difficulty understanding emotion or someone with ADD dozing off in the middle of your speech makes them a bad person.

[Tls2016]

Lol
Add to checklist for success in biglaw: grow up in a dysfunctional family.

[zot1]

But the money is good!

Obviously know you're joking, but as a launching point:

If you're in NYC, the money is not good. This is probably the worst lie propagated of them all. $160K compared to other white collar jobs in NYC with similar hours, stress and "prestige" often have all-in comp well into the 200's... some of these positions are pre-MBA, but many never require or expect any money to be spent on graduate degrees (just 2-3 years of also soul crushing, but relevant paid work experience).

Before paying money to law school to get increased earning potential, people should consider that base-salary is only 1 very limited picture of true comp.

Yeah, the money isn't that good in NYC. It's like making 60k in a lot of flyover places when looking at COL, except you're working way more than someone would in that 60k/year job.

Unfortunately this is true for NY. I did a salary/COL comparison and what I make in a small city is the equivalent of 168k/yr in Manhattan.

[Anonymous User]

Same AP recommending growing up in a dysfunctional family. The flaw with these calculators is they are based on the average grocery store in NYC vs the average grocery store in Boise, etc. This assumes people don't shop at national chains where prices are equivalent throughout the country (eg: Trader Joes, CVS, Amazon, etc.) Outside of rent, NYC really isn't that much more. Granted, rent is a huge expense and is a big part of why I registered with The Rent is Too Damn High political party (http://www.rentistoodamnhigh.org), and why I've tried to encourage my coworkers to do the same, which always leads to the follow up question, "Is this real?" The answer is yes, but also that the NYC-everywhere else discrepancy can be overblown.

[zot1]

Same AP recommending growing up in a dysfunctional family. The flaw with these calculators is they are based on the average grocery store in NYC vs the average grocery store in Boise, etc. This assumes people don't shop at national chains where prices are equivalent throughout the country (eg: Trader Joes, CVS, Amazon, etc.) Outside of rent, NYC really isn't that much more. Granted, rent is a huge expense and is a big part of why I registered with The Rent is Too Damn High political party (http://www.rentistoodamnhigh.org), and why I've tried to encourage my coworkers to do the same, which always leads to the follow up question, "Is this real?" The answer is yes, but also that the NYC-everywhere else discrepancy can be overblown.

Given my current lifestyle, I can't see it being that far off.

[WhiteCollarBlueShirt]

Same AP recommending growing up in a dysfunctional family. The flaw with these calculators is they are based on the average grocery store in NYC vs the average grocery store in Boise, etc. This assumes people don't shop at national chains where prices are equivalent throughout the country (eg: Trader Joes, CVS, Amazon, etc.) Outside of rent, NYC really isn't that much more. Granted, rent is a huge expense and is a big part of why I registered with The Rent is Too Damn High political party (http://www.rentistoodamnhigh.org), and why I've tried to encourage my coworkers to do the same, which always leads to the follow up question, "Is this real?" The answer is yes, but also that the NYC-everywhere else discrepancy can be overblown.

Given my current lifestyle, I can't see it being that far off.

Not a big fan of COL comparisons. Prefer to stick to relative salary comparisons w/in the relevant market, but, if you live in NYC and mostly eat out of Trader Joes and CVS, then that's rough... Restaurants, bars, housing, Chelsea Piers, gyms, private clubs, rental cars etc. etc. all way more expensive.

And I too would say my mid 100's is about equal to how I would live with 3-400 in Manhattan for day-to-day life (so the calculator seems more or less fairly close). But the real shame is that associate and counsel pay in general is often ridiculously low compared to their peers' all-in comp on the business side.

[dixiecupdrinking]

Same AP recommending growing up in a dysfunctional family. The flaw with these calculators is they are based on the average grocery store in NYC vs the average grocery store in Boise, etc. This assumes people don't shop at national chains where prices are equivalent throughout the country (eg: Trader Joes, CVS, Amazon, etc.) Outside of rent, NYC really isn't that much more. Granted, rent is a huge expense and is a big part of why I registered with The Rent is Too Damn High political party (http://www.rentistoodamnhigh.org), and why I've tried to encourage my coworkers to do the same, which always leads to the follow up question, "Is this real?" The answer is yes, but also that the NYC-everywhere else discrepancy can be overblown.

Given my current lifestyle, I can't see it being that far off.

They're really far off. Even if you assume the price adjustments are correct (which they typically aren't), they also assume you're spending all of your income on consumption. 401k contributions and student loan payments cost the same no matter where you live, and doing biglaw in NYC means you can take an extra $50,000/year or whatever off the top toward those kinds of things before you even start making COL comparisons.

NYC is much more expensive than flyover country but it just doesn't cost 300-400% more.

[zot1]

Same AP recommending growing up in a dysfunctional family. The flaw with these calculators is they are based on the average grocery store in NYC vs the average grocery store in Boise, etc. This assumes people don't shop at national chains where prices are equivalent throughout the country (eg: Trader Joes, CVS, Amazon, etc.) Outside of rent, NYC really isn't that much more. Granted, rent is a huge expense and is a big part of why I registered with The Rent is Too Damn High political party (http://www.rentistoodamnhigh.org), and why I've tried to encourage my coworkers to do the same, which always leads to the follow up question, "Is this real?" The answer is yes, but also that the NYC-everywhere else discrepancy can be overblown.

Given my current lifestyle, I can't see it being that far off.

They're really far off. Even if you assume the price adjustments are correct (which they typically aren't), they also assume you're spending all of your income on consumption. 401k contributions and student loan payments cost the same no matter where you live, and doing biglaw in NYC means you can take an extra $50,000/year or whatever off the top toward those kinds of things before you even start making COL comparisons.

NYC is much more expensive than flyover country but it just doesn't cost 300-400% more.

Meh. It doesn't really matter in the end. NY is still likely underpaid.

[dixiecupdrinking]

Same AP recommending growing up in a dysfunctional family. The flaw with these calculators is they are based on the average grocery store in NYC vs the average grocery store in Boise, etc. This assumes people don't shop at national chains where prices are equivalent throughout the country (eg: Trader Joes, CVS, Amazon, etc.) Outside of rent, NYC really isn't that much more. Granted, rent is a huge expense and is a big part of why I registered with The Rent is Too Damn High political party (http://www.rentistoodamnhigh.org), and why I've tried to encourage my coworkers to do the same, which always leads to the follow up question, "Is this real?" The answer is yes, but also that the NYC-everywhere else discrepancy can be overblown.

Given my current lifestyle, I can't see it being that far off.

They're really far off. Even if you assume the price adjustments are correct (which they typically aren't), they also assume you're spending all of your income on consumption. 401k contributions and student loan payments cost the same no matter where you live, and doing biglaw in NYC means you can take an extra $50,000/year or whatever off the top toward those kinds of things before you even start making COL comparisons.

NYC is much more expensive than flyover country but it just doesn't cost 300-400% more.

Meh. It doesn't really matter in the end. NY is still likely underpaid.

"Underpaid" doesn't mean anything until firms are having systemic retention problems. You could make effectively more money elsewhere for the same or less work, that much is obvious, but so what?

[Danger Zone]

NY to... 480k?

[dixiecupdrinking]

NY to... 480k?

Wichita to $35k so that COL calculators stop saying they make more than NY lawyers.

[zot1]

"Underpaid" doesn't mean anything until firms are having systemic retention problems. You could make effectively more money elsewhere for the same or less work, that much is obvious, but so what?

So nothing. I'm not in NY or in biglaw.

[Johann]

Same AP recommending growing up in a dysfunctional family. The flaw with these calculators is they are based on the average grocery store in NYC vs the average grocery store in Boise, etc. This assumes people don't shop at national chains where prices are equivalent throughout the country (eg: Trader Joes, CVS, Amazon, etc.) Outside of rent, NYC really isn't that much more. Granted, rent is a huge expense and is a big part of why I registered with The Rent is Too Damn High political party (http://www.rentistoodamnhigh.org), and why I've tried to encourage my coworkers to do the same, which always leads to the follow up question, "Is this real?" The answer is yes, but also that the NYC-everywhere else discrepancy can be overblown.

Given my current lifestyle, I can't see it being that far off.

They're really far off. Even if you assume the price adjustments are correct (which they typically aren't), they also assume you're spending all of your income on consumption. 401k contributions and student loan payments cost the same no matter where you live, and doing biglaw in NYC means you can take an extra $50,000/year or whatever off the top toward those kinds of things before you even start making COL comparisons.

NYC is much more expensive than flyover country but it just doesn't cost 300-400% more.

Meh. It doesn't really matter in the end. NY is still likely underpaid.

"Underpaid" doesn't mean anything until firms are having systemic retention problems. You could make effectively more money elsewhere for the same or less work, that much is obvious, but so what?

We're saying the money isn't that good. Which you just admitted. No other point than that.

[dixiecupdrinking]

My point is that the money is actually quite good, NYC or not. The fact that you could make even more elsewhere doesn't make it bad money. There are a lot of shitty things about biglaw but money is like one of the few illegitimate complaints. I guess if your point is that you're not getting rich, then sure, but it's insane to complain about getting paid this much.

[JCougar]

The money is good, but it's value is substantially, if not totally negated by the debt load combined with the average tenure of a biglaw associate.

You are too busy to enjoy life with the money you are making, and you're not really saving any of it either, because it's all going to dig yourself out of your law school debt hole. It would be one thing if you could pack all that money away for a down payment on a house, but that's not happening. Especially given the housing costs in your typical Biglaw city.

[Anonymous User]

The city tax is annoying. You can expose a loophole by not using any credit card or making ATM withdrawals in the city. The IRS simply doesn't have the resources or authority to subpoena phone records and IP addresses. If you cared only about risk-reward and didn't care about ethics you could boost your income by taking one from the boomers' playbook.

On the more general point of happiness, the pattern I've realized from observation seems to be efficiency. There isn't enough time to be able to waste time or have a lazy Sunday, and live a balanced life, which can be tough if you're used to doing well without trying as big law requires more self discipline and time than raw intelligence. It's comical how big of a factor grades are when looking at how someone organizes their closet would be a much better predictor of success. None of this is necessarily good or bad, but it's different than what one would expect based on research like the very website we're on right now. All in all, I still think it's fantastic. Just showing up to work each day makes your resume more valuable, you're compensated well even if none of you are rich and this all happens while you're being trained for a job you know nothing about. It's really not that bad. There's a sense that these firms owe you something just because you chose to go to their summer camp over another camp, but the reality is you haven't given them anything more than potential while they've given you tangible value. The schools are the reason you're in debt, and the schools are the only ones positing fraudulent information.