Any 2Ls or 3L feel a slight twinge of regret about the law firm they picked? Forum

[Anonymous User]

I feel like its buyer’s remorse. Obviously we won’t really know if it was a good call until we’re real associates. I chose Cahill over some other similarly ranked NY firms, won’t say where, but think Fried Frank, Cadwalader, Willkie, etc.

I went with what I perceived to be fit (which was really based on just people I met) but maybe that was dumb? My firm’s clearly a lot more specialized in the type of transactional work it does, but what if I don’t end up liking that type of work? I also thought it was well regarded compared to the other firms (at least on TLS polls), but no one really recognizes it when it comes up in conversation in real life.

There’s not really anything that can be done now; anyone else feel this way?

[krads153]

Nobody knows if they will like the work unless they were a paralegal at a big firm. If that's the case, you can lateral to another practice area after at least a year.

As for your second point, non-lawyers IRL do not know anything about law firms, period. They probably think working shitlaw is the same thing as working biglaw.

[Anonymous User]

I feel like its buyer’s remorse. Obviously we won’t really know if it was a good call until we’re real associates. I chose Cahill over some other similarly ranked NY firms, won’t say where, but think Fried Frank, Cadwalader, Willkie, etc.

I went with what I perceived to be fit (which was really based on just people I met) but maybe that was dumb? My firm’s clearly a lot more specialized in the type of transactional work it does, but what if I don’t end up liking that type of work? I also thought it was well regarded compared to the other firms (at least on TLS polls), but no one really recognizes it when it comes up in conversation in real life.

There’s not really anything that can be done now; anyone else feel this way?

Picking Cahill for transactional work is extremely risky, as their one area of work is really not for everyone. (I say this as someone who does that work at another firm.) If you like it, great, but if you don't you're fucked. Using "fit" as the rationale for the decision, rather than whether you find their practice simpatico, is incomprehensibly dumb. So to answer your question, yes, it was dumb.

[mvp99]

.

[pissantvache]

The practice area like/dislike issue is a really big one, but unfortunately there's no way to know ahead of time whether you'll like a practice area. That said, fit is really important too (and is worth taking a lower vault rank if the fit is materially better). Out of the firms OP mentioned, except maybe for Willkie, doesn't strike me as a big deal to choose Cahill over FF, cadwalader, etc., because those firms are also basically single-practice firms as well. Plus the people are reported to be absolutely awful at both places. I personally would have taken Willkie over Cahill, but that's largely because i think Willkie is stronger in multiple practice areas. If you really aren't sure what you want to do, I think m&a is the most portable practice area.

In summary, always better to find a full-service firm with good fit and a robust rotation program.

[Anonymous User]

2L who chose Biglaw in a Secondary over Willkie. Have regrets about it every now and then because I also picked my firm largely because of fit/location, but also constantly worry that it was a mistake because the practice areas are limited. My firm does and is really strong in the practice area I *think* I want, but I definitely worry that I a)wont get into that group or b) will wind up hating it. You're not alone.

[Anonymous User]

I've always been of the opinion that if you like what you do but hate who you work with then it doesn't matter what you're doing, it going to be terrible because of the people, but if you don't necessarily love what you're doing but enjoy the people, they will make coming to work worthwhile. That being said, you're not necessarily going to be at one firm with the same people for your entire career and so what practice you choose is important as it can pigeon-hole you. It really all comes down to balance as well as being aware that nothing is ever set in stone. For me personally, fit would be of more importance in that balance, but not by much.

[Anonymous User]

2L who chose Biglaw in a Secondary over Willkie. Have regrets about it every now and then because I also picked my firm largely because of fit/location, but also constantly worry that it was a mistake because the practice areas are limited. My firm does and is really strong in the practice area I *think* I want, but I definitely worry that I a)wont get into that group or b) will wind up hating it. You're not alone.

I'm in a secondary market. Thought the hours would be better. Not really the case. But I do really like the people and feel like I'm getting more substantive experience earlier. Although I find myself wishing I had doc review sometimes when I get assignment that I have absolutely no idea how to do.

[Anonymous User]

A lot of 3Ls or first year associates ITT. I don't think you all understand how, um, 'particular' HY finance work is. Lots of folks do it for about 1-2 years and decide they would literally rather jump out a fucking 34th floor window than ever see another set of papers. Irrespective of "fit". HY is talked about as grueling and soul-crushing even within the world of NY transactional, which is a bit like being the worst building at Rikers.

[BizBro]

Lol wouldn't that mean everyone at a place like Cahill, where all they do is HY work, would have 2 year turnover rates? I'm a 2L so I have no idea what HY work entails. Why is M&A more exciting then leveraged finance? Seems equally unpleasent to me.

/coming from someone who is doing lit

[krads153]

Lol wouldn't that mean everyone at a place like Cahill, where all they do is HY work, would have 2 year turnover rates? I'm a 2L so I have no idea what HY work entails. Why is M&A more exciting then leveraged finance? Seems equally unpleasent to me.

/coming from someone who is doing lit

Leveraged finance has ridiculous fire drills. Yes, all practice groups have fire drills, but groups like bankruptcy and lev fin have awful hours generally and lots of fire drills.

[chinny123]

Hope you enjoy getting commitment papers in on Friday nights and demands by Sponsor's counsel to turn them by Monday. #levfinlife.

[Anonymous User]

Shit CW, FF, WF don't seem so bad now does it? #fuckedup

[pissantvache]

Agree that levfin sucks (having done it myself for a while), particularly as a junior associate. That said, way better to be lender side than borrower side, so for that purpose at least Cahill is better than a place that does borrower work (at least in levfin).

M&A is more interesting than levfin because you can contribute substantively much earlier. As a junior in levfin, your only role is basically creating and perfecting security interests. There is an extremely limited opportunity to draft anything, and generally the practice is more focused on precedent transactions. Another way of saying that is that there is a market provision for almost every provision, and deviations from the market are generally much smaller.

In m&a, terms tend to be more bespoke, so you can assist in drafting things earlier (indemnity provisions if you're lucky, covenants, Operating agreements, etc.,), and the ancillary stuff that is usually the province of juniors is usually substance over form (as opposed to finance, which is very much a form over substance kind of practice).

[Anonymous User]

I'm first year m&a and worry I picked the wrong practice area.

[Anonymous User]

Having only one option is great for feeling no regret (don't be too sympathetic, it was my top choice, but then don't be too jealous, because it wasn't your top choice).

[Anonymous User]

Agree that levfin sucks (having done it myself for a while), particularly as a junior associate. That said, way better to be lender side than borrower side, so for that purpose at least Cahill is better than a place that does borrower work (at least in levfin).

M&A is more interesting than levfin because you can contribute substantively much earlier. As a junior in levfin, your only role is basically creating and perfecting security interests. There is an extremely limited opportunity to draft anything, and generally the practice is more focused on precedent transactions. Another way of saying that is that there is a market provision for almost every provision, and deviations from the market are generally much smaller.

In m&a, terms tend to be more bespoke, so you can assist in drafting things earlier (indemnity provisions if you're lucky, covenants, Operating agreements, etc.,), and the ancillary stuff that is usually the province of juniors is usually substance over form (as opposed to finance, which is very much a form over substance kind of practice).

Disagree that lender side is better than borrower side. In this market, sponsor's counsel have all the power. Sponsor wants joke covenants? Banks are all like yes please, can I have some more?

Your description of roles in M&A and LevFin is also a very much a YMMW situation. You could very much get stuck with all diligence as an M&A junior (which by the way is 100x worse than LevFin diligence, since 99% of the time LevFin just looks at the M&A dili memo and goes off that). I did lev fin as a junior and was heavily involved in drafting documentation, whether it was at the papers stage or the deals stage. You're right in that lev fin deals are all about what's market right now, but saying it's all UCC-1s and UCC-3s is misleading.

And to the OP, I wouldn't have regrets. I've worked across from FF and Cadwalder teams before and they both seemed like TTT places to work.

[Anonymous User]

I'm terrified of getting no offered. Chose the market I wanted to be in over NY.

[hangingtree]

I'm terrified of getting no offered. Chose the market I wanted to be in over NY.

I know words like this will never truly quell your fears, but if your firm has ~100% offer rate you have to basically try not to get one. So, this fear that you have is about all you need to get an offer. You can be far less competent than all the other summers as long as you're trying. And if you're cool to be around, they'll probably even be excited for you to come back.

If something tragic does happen and you're not offered, it will very likely be in the form of a cold offer. I shopped a bit as a 3L and I can tell you no one would have known if my offer was cold. The possibility probably crosses their minds as they interview 3Ls, but only if you give them a reason for it to. In that case, I still doubt whether they'd ask you directly if your offer was cold, but would instead get their questions answered in another way. And lastly, most NY firms will probably love your story if you do need to do 3L OCI for NY. "I thought I wanted to be in X, but I decided I really wanted to be in NY" - you'd need not say anything more about your interest in changing markets.

[jbagelboy]

Because most firms are shitty places to work as a junior, the grass is greener thought rambles are totally unavoidable
Also lots of people straight up lie when asked in person about their law firm experience and make it seem way rosier than it is --that type A optimism -- so that you feel like crap when you compare

No actual evidence you'd be happier or more successful elsewhere though

[lavarman84]

I also thought it was well regarded compared to the other firms (at least on TLS polls), but no one really recognizes it when it comes up in conversation in real life.

I was in law school and had never heard of these places before finding this site. There are very few people in this world that care enough to know the names of big law firms. It's kind of weird that this bothers you.

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

Since I'm out of the loop, someone help me out: Are students still desperate to pay sticker for HLS and grind like African diamond miners to get enough H's to cop dat bonsai tree so they can bill 2400 hours a year while making the exact same money as the guy who copped a Cornell scholarship, didn't blow a gasket on his way to median, and coasted to 1900 at Proskauer for three years?

Because if so, most of them have earned every shitty work situation they wind up in.

[Anonymous User]

Since I'm out of the loop, someone help me out: Are students still desperate to pay sticker for HLS and grind like African diamond miners to get enough H's to cop dat bonsai tree so they can bill 2400 hours a year while making the exact same money as the guy who copped a Cornell scholarship, didn't blow a gasket on his way to median, and coasted to 1900 at Fried Frank for three years?

Because if so, most of them have earned every shitty work situation they wind up in.

It's not like Cornell gives you a 75% chance of getting that job, and I remember reading the 1:12 or whatever chance of any first year making partner is skewed because it was over 33% for HYS grads. At my firm, the HYS people are all either partners or getting the high brow work very quickly into their tenure. Could be correlation, not causation, but who knows?

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

Since I'm out of the loop, someone help me out: Are students still desperate to pay sticker for HLS and grind like African diamond miners to get enough H's to cop dat bonsai tree so they can bill 2400 hours a year while making the exact same money as the guy who copped a Cornell scholarship, didn't blow a gasket on his way to median, and coasted to 1900 at Fried Frank for three years?

Because if so, most of them have earned every shitty work situation they wind up in.

It's not like Cornell gives you a 75% chance of getting that job, and I remember reading the 1:12 or whatever chance of any first year making partner is skewed because it was over 33% for HYS grads. At my firm, the HYS people are all either partners or getting the high brow work very quickly into their tenure. Could be correlation, not causation, but who knows?

I'm gonna go ahead and call bullshit on 1 in 12 first-years making partner in a post-2008 world, and I'm going to go ahead and call super-duper bullshit on 33% of HYS grads doing it.

[Anonymous User]

I had similar feelings after the first few months of OCI but now as a 3L I could seriously not care at all.

The new sentiment is concern over how I will last 3-5 years. Where that is doesn't enter my mind at all.