Tax LLM as a way to switch practice areas? Forum

[llMaybe]

Greetings all,

I know that LLM in tax questions appear periodically on the topic of finding employment, but I haven't seen one recently about using an LLM as a way to switch practice areas.

Quick background: I'm a c/o 2008 from a 2T school in the NY tri-state area, mediocre law school grades, liberal arts degree, not much focus in law school so I didn't do so hot. I did very well in courses that interested me but not so well in courses that did not, and unfortunately, that's how I am in most things. One of the courses that I did well on was federal income tax B+ (so maybe not so well) and I also took corporate tax which I decided to do a pass/fail on to my regret since I know I rocked the final exam. I also did a semester long tax internship for credit and got an A. I genuinely wanted to stay in the NYC area but due to economic and family considerations I ended up going back home to a mid size city and have been practicing since. Law firms in my city were not hiring at the time as the economy was tanking in 2008 so I was very fortunate to land a job as an ADA at the local DA's office. I was there for a few years, tried a bunch of cases, established myself as a good lawyer and then made the switch into firm life at a small (10-15) attorney insurance defense firm and learned civil litigation. Now I work at one of the largest plaintiff's personal injury firms in my state and run a specific section of the law firm which is essentially like being a partner as I get bonuses on my production on top of my salary. I really can't complain about my current situation, I have about 20 first chair trials under my belt, I have a six figure salary, great bonuses, a real 9-5, and my pay will only get better. I was young and immature when I started law school and now that I'm older and focused, I have demonstrated that I am a good lawyer, a good producer, and a great advocate for my clients, blah blah.

The only problem with my situation is that over the years i've grown to despise litigation and what I do on a daily basis. I'm tired of the petty disputes, opposing counsel, even my clients. However, to this day, I continue to have a strong intellectual curiosity and interest in tax and I remember thoroughly enjoying most aspects of it during law school classes and my internship. I would like a change of practice and I would also like to live in the NYC area again. I know that at this point in the game it's crazy for me to even try, but I just don't want to live my life with the regret of not trying. At this point, in considering employment prospects and geography, NYU is probably the only school that I would apply to for this crazy dream of mine. So I ask the following questions to anyone that has some insight into the NYU LLM program or any aspect of my situation that you may be able to chime on.

1) Considering my background, do I even stand a chance of being admitted to the LLM Tax program at NYU?

2) Assuming I were to get in, what would my job prospects be like after graduation with my background?

3) Has anyone here made a similar practice area change? If so, how far in were you and how did it turn out for you?

Hope I can get some good insight and thank you for reading this long post.

[Johann]

1) absolutely. I'd peg you slightly above 50%.
2) Job prospects would be very hit or miss. Quarter life crisis switching careers might not be the most regarded but I think someone may bite. Probably highly dependent on your grades and whether they reflect full commitment to tax.
3) I worked in litigation/probate/wills for a year before making the switch. Worked out fine but I spun my experience in a way it was a plus saying that I worked on some tax projects and knew tax was what I wanted to do.

[llMaybe]

1) absolutely. I'd peg you slightly above 50%.
2) Job prospects would be very hit or miss. Quarter life crisis switching careers might not be the most regarded but I think someone may bite. Probably highly dependent on your grades and whether they reflect full commitment to tax.
3) I worked in litigation/probate/wills for a year before making the switch. Worked out fine but I spun my experience in a way it was a plus saying that I worked on some tax projects and knew tax was what I wanted to do.

Hey thanks for the response. I'm surprised you think I stand at least a 50% chance. Considering how crazy this idea is, I don't really have anything to lose by applying. Getting accepting and then deciding to quit my current job and take that huge risk and debt is the more difficult issue.

I figured that my employment success would be highly dependent on my grades. The real problem is that I have no real life tax experience other than my internship in law school so it will be hard to spin my resume to an employer. My only idea in that regard was to use my litigation and trial experience as a way to get into some kind of tax controversy/litigation white collar practice. I know the big law boat has sailed away, but I would be content at a mid law or boutique firm in NYC.

Thanks again for your response.

[barkschool]

Have you reached out to any employers, and this questions goes well beyond my knowledge, of possibly securing employment before you finish the course?

It may be possible with your level of experience practicing law beforehand.

[nealric]

As a tax attorney, I would advise against getting an LLM in your situation. Can't tell you about admissions chances, suffice to say admission isn't extremely competitive and you probably have a chance at a top program.

The reason you get an LLM is to show potential employers you know something about tax (and/or because your current employer is paying for it). But the big employers of tax LLMs (Big4 and Biglaw) won't know what to do with you- you don't fit their hiring mold. Firms are very reluctant to hire experienced practitioners as first year associates, and you have no tax experience so can't be hired at a more senior level. The major tax boutiques pretty much follow biglaw with hiring. Midlaw firms tend to have one tax guy if they have a tax practice at all, and you will not become that guy with nothing but a fresh LLM. It's possible there is some smaller firm out there with someone willing to take you under their wing or come on as a litigator that assists their tax controversy practice, but I wouldn't count on it. Tax litigation outside of tax court is relatively uncommon. Tax court tends to operate very differently, so your trial experience may not be all that relevant.

If you aren't looking for a big institutional practice, why are you getting an LLM? Your law license already allows you to practice tax law and the general public doesn't know what an LLM is. Keep in mind that the vast majority of what you learn in a Tax LLM mostly applies to big institutional settings- those served by Biglaw and Big4. If you are doing individuals, you are probably better off learning discrete areas of tax law and trying to branch out into tax clients. A lot of tax litigators aren't codeheads. I did an internship at DOJ Tax between law school and my LLM. I was surprised that most of them actually didn't know that much about tax despite litigating tax issues- it actually wasn't necessary for most cases.

[llMaybe]

As a tax attorney, I would advise against getting an LLM in your situation. Can't tell you about admissions chances, suffice to say admission isn't extremely competitive and you probably have a chance at a top program.

The reason you get an LLM is to show potential employers you know something about tax (and/or because your current employer is paying for it). But the big employers of tax LLMs (Big4 and Biglaw) won't know what to do with you- you don't fit their hiring mold. Firms are very reluctant to hire experienced practitioners as first year associates, and you have no tax experience so can't be hired at a more senior level. The major tax boutiques pretty much follow biglaw with hiring. Midlaw firms tend to have one tax guy if they have a tax practice at all, and you will not become that guy with nothing but a fresh LLM. It's possible there is some smaller firm out there with someone willing to take you under their wing or come on as a litigator that assists their tax controversy practice, but I wouldn't count on it. Tax litigation outside of tax court is relatively uncommon. Tax court tends to operate very differently, so your trial experience may not be all that relevant.

If you aren't looking for a big institutional practice, why are you getting an LLM? Your law license already allows you to practice tax law and the general public doesn't know what an LLM is. Keep in mind that the vast majority of what you learn in a Tax LLM mostly applies to big institutional settings- those served by Biglaw and Big4. If you are doing individuals, you are probably better off learning discrete areas of tax law and trying to branch out into tax clients. A lot of tax litigators aren't codeheads. I did an internship at DOJ Tax between law school and my LLM. I was surprised that most of them actually didn't know that much about tax despite litigating tax issues- it actually wasn't necessary for most cases.

Thanks for that response, it was very informative. I suppose you hit the nail on the head. I know that I don't need an LLM to practice tax, but since i've never done it, an LLM is the only realistic way to show potential employers that I'm serious about that practice area. However, I do agree that I don't find big law hiring mold, but I was hoping that maybe a midlaw or boutique operation would be more acceptable. I figured even though I have about 7yrs as a practicing attorney I'm still relatively young (early 30s) and have plenty of midnight oil to burn to learn the practice, and I personally would not mind starting from year one as a tax attorney (assuming an east coast salary) and working my way up in a field that I'm sure I would enjoy more. How I can convince an employer of that is a different issue entirely.

[Anonymous User]

I quit my biglaw job (4-5 years corporate experience, zero tax experience, no tax classes taken in law school) to do the NYU tax LLM and it worked out well for me. Everything I'm saying below relates only to a NYU tax LLM and working in NYC.

What you need (if you want biglaw out of the NYU tax llm) are (1) VERY good grades from the NYU program and (2) a story that makes sense about why tax. If you want big4 (doing M&A tax or international tax, which pays roughly $115,000 with better than law firm hours so it's not a bad gig), you need above average grades and a story about "why tax" that makes sense.
If you get very good grades it's easy to convince employers that you like and are good at tax. If you get mediocre or bad grades then obviously employers will wonder why you left your previous practice to do tax, something that you had no background in and that, as it turns out, you're not very good at. My story about why switch was literally that I liked problem solving, technical legal analysis and that I had seen what the tax guys did on my corporate deals and liked the sound of it.

For me, making the decision to switch was a huge struggle which is why I'm reaching out to give advice to someone that is in the same situation. I've PM'ed the OP, so if you're still deciding please feel free to reach out.

[llMaybe]

I quit my biglaw job (4-5 years corporate experience, zero tax experience, no tax classes taken in law school) to do the NYU tax LLM and it worked out well for me. Everything I'm saying below relates only to a NYU tax LLM and working in NYC.

What you need (if you want biglaw out of the NYU tax llm) are (1) VERY good grades from the NYU program and (2) a story that makes sense about why tax. If you want big4 (doing M&A tax or international tax, which pays roughly $115,000 with better than law firm hours so it's not a bad gig), you need above average grades and a story about "why tax" that makes sense.
If you get very good grades it's easy to convince employers that you like and are good at tax. If you get mediocre or bad grades then obviously employers will wonder why you left your previous practice to do tax, something that you had no background in and that, as it turns out, you're not very good at. My story about why switch was literally that I liked problem solving, technical legal analysis and that I had seen what the tax guys did on my corporate deals and liked the sound of it.

For me, making the decision to switch was a huge struggle which is why I'm reaching out to give advice to someone that is in the same situation. I've PM'ed the OP, so if you're still deciding please feel free to reach out.

Thanks for your input and for reaching out. I also privately messaged you, but would be happy to continue this conversation here in case others in a similar situation are interested.