BigLaw Labor & Employment Lawyer - Here to answer Q's Forum

[Anonymous User]

Title says it all. Currently a junior/mid-level associate in a large firm that primarily reps management in L&E disputes. I really love the practice area (especially since I used to do general business lit and hated it). I find that, when I speak with law students, they often don't have a clear picture of what L&E practice is, what it entails, etc. Figured I'd answer any questions you guys may have, since I think its a great area to get into for a number of reasons.

[LegaleZy]

First, thanks for doing this. I'm very interested in labor and employment, but as you've noted, at least at my school, it's been hard to get a clear idea of what exactly I'd be signing-up for beyond just general answers that could apply to any area of law. Forgive me in advance for the garage of questions:

What bought you to L&E, given you were in general litigation previously? How does L&E compare to your previous position?
What is your typical day like? Do you find your work load/hours more predictable than your peers in other practice groups?
How often do you work with lawyers in other practice areas?
What qualities do you think make an associate successful in L&E?
How much is your practice labor related issues compared to general employment issues?
At most large firms, does L&E tend to be a smaller practice area compared to others?

Thanks again for offering to answer questions!

[hairbear7]

Thanks for taking questions!

To add on to the last question above (about the size of the practice area), how difficult is it to join a L&E practice group at a firm?
What kinds of work can someone do their first summer to learn more about management side L&E work?
What kind of exit options are there?
This is probably a stupid question but is it all litigation or is there transactional work?

[Anonymous User]

First, thanks for doing this. I'm very interested in labor and employment, but as you've noted, at least at my school, it's been hard to get a clear idea of what exactly I'd be signing-up for beyond just general answers that could apply to any area of law. Forgive me in advance for the garage of questions:

What bought you to L&E, given you were in general litigation previously? How does L&E compare to your previous position?
What is your typical day like? Do you find your work load/hours more predictable than your peers in other practice groups?
How often do you work with lawyers in other practice areas?
What qualities do you think make an associate successful in L&E?
How much is your practice labor related issues compared to general employment issues?
At most large firms, does L&E tend to be a smaller practice area compared to others?

Thanks again for offering to answer questions!

1. I pretty much always knew I wanted to be in L&E. Only ended up in general lit since thats where most of the work was when I first started as a junior. L&E was slow and general lit had lots going on, so I was essentially compelled to join general lit. I only ever cared about the "human" areas of practice that have that real world element to them. I never cared about things like banking, antitrust, securities, etc. and could never do that on a daily basis. I needed something that constantly involves real people, real situations, real emotions, etc. And nothing seemed more real world than employment law.

As for the comparison to general lit, L&E had so many benefits. In general, it involves far less discovery, so much more of my time is spent on substantive matters (though in the biggest L&E practices that focus mostly on wage & hour work, there is still just as much discovery, but I'm not at a firm that focuses on those mega wage & hours). So now, I spend much more of my time writing briefs, attending mediations, preparing for depositions, engaging with clients on counseling matters, etc. On top of that, the substance is just so much more engaging on a daily basis. You can't make some of these stories up if you tried. Finally, the exit opportunities are much better out of L&E compared to general lit (as is often the case with more specialized areas). But L&E in particular creates a great pipeline to in-house positions since every place needs L&E counsel. Of course, it also keeps the door open to working in smaller L&E boutiques, whether management or employee side.

2. Part of what I like is that my days are now much more varied. Just to clarify, I switched firms in order to break into L&E, and my current firm has more mid-size clients and cases, so some of what I'm about to describe is really a function of the firm size as opposed to a lit vs. L&E thing. But previously in general lit, I worked on just 2 huge cases. I'd sit down and log my 4 or 5 hours on each case every single day with a pretty high level of predictability. L&E is very different (especially now that I'm at a firm with these smaller clients and cases, relatively speaking to the mega-firm I used to be with). As for hours, its been far more manageable (though can obviously still be very bad during busy times). But since the discovery nonsense is not quite as persistent, it eases up a bit more often.

L&E involves two key parts: litigation and counseling. So I spend part of my days doing litigation work, whether it be drafting a brief, drafting interrogatories, mediation statements, etc. But the other (and probably most important) aspect of L&E is the counseling work. Clients call us all the time to for advice, and I am often called out of nowhere to research an issue or make a judgment call in a very short period of time. For example, a client might ask if they can institute a certain policy, may need assistance in terminating a problematic employee, may have an unexpected strike going on and need to know how to proceed, etc. And on top of that, employment laws at the fed and state level are changing ALL THE TIME. So you are constantly interfacing with clients to guide them. And even as a junior, I've had a bunch of chances to speak directly with clients, since the partner usually just sits in on the call and trusts me to convey the new info.

3. I can't say I work with non-L&E lawyers too often, but there are certainly issues that come up which allow me to work outside of the group. For example, a real estate partner called me recently to ask about certain statutes that require purchasers of commercial real estate to retain the building service workers currently servicing the property for a certain period of time. Another example would be working with IP to discuss non-disclosure and confidentiality agreements regarding certain proprietary business information. Its usually one-off questions like that which allow me to jump in.

4. The best L&E lawyers are very empathetic to "human" problems and issues, and don't shy away from very emotionally-charged situations and circumstances. Regardless of whom you represent, you need to put yourself in the shoes of all parties involved. Unlike many other areas of big firm practice, L&E can really shake the parties in a way that has little to do with $$, and that includes both management and employees. Logic and composure often go out the window when people are accused of discrimination or harassment (or on the flipside, when people are actually discriminated against or harassed).

The best L&E lawyers are also very friendly, personable, and love constant interaction. More so than other areas, you are expected to engage and counsel with regularity. L&E law is always changing each week, so writing, blogging, articles, etc. are an important part of the practice and we relish any opportunity to discuss the changing landscape with clients or prospective clients. So those personalities who like to just remain deep in thought in a quiet office probably wouldn't like L&E. Finally, you have to really like multi-tasking and switching gears often. I used to work on 2 big matters all day long. Now, I may juggle around 4 or 5, with any number of surprises coming up throughout the day. You have to like that kind of unpredictability.

5. In general, most firms will do much more employment work than labor. In fact, many big firm L&E lawyers do no labor work at all. My firm is a bit different in that labor law is actually a pretty big chunk of what I do (I'd say I do about 2/3 employment and 1/3 labor). For those who may not be clear on the difference, employment law involves things like discrimination, harassment, wage & hour, non-compete cases, et. Labor, on the other hand, involves issues of unions, collective bargaining, union grievances and unfair labor practices, etc. In general, if you go into L&E, the assumption is that you will do far more employment law, but do you research on the balance at the various firms. I never thought I would even enjoy the labor side, but I've done some pretty interesting work on that side.

6. Lets first break this down into categories of L&E firms. You have the biglaw firms that happen to have L&E practices, very large L&E boutiques that are nationwide and only do L&E work (ex. Jackson Lewis, Littler Mendelson), and then smaller L&E firms. For now, lets just focus on the biglaw firms that happen to have L&E practices. In those cases, yes, L&E tends to usually be a smaller practice and not a focus for the firm. Only a few of the large biglaw firms make L&E a real focus or priority. Think firms like Proskauer, Morgan Lewis, Paul Hastings, etc. All of those are very large and renowned L&E practices. Sure, essentially every biglaw firm "has" an L&E practice, but an most, its just a tiny group with just a few people handling L&E to the extent it comes up. Many people in these kinds of groups often end up working outside L&E to the extent no clients have L&E issues at the time. My firm is a middleground in that its a pretty sizeable group, but nowhere close to the size of the L&E group at Proskauer or Morgan Lewis. But since my firm handles slightly more mid-range cases and clients, I end up doing far more substantive work than most people at the huge L&E practices. The single-plaintiff and smaller cases are often the best cases for juniors to cut their teeth on, but you don't really get those kinds of cases at the largest L&E practices (again, since they focus almost entirely on large class actions). Not an across-the-board rule, but generally seems to be true.

[Anonymous User]

Thanks for taking questions!

To add on to the last question above (about the size of the practice area), how difficult is it to join a L&E practice group at a firm?
What kinds of work can someone do their first summer to learn more about management side L&E work?
What kind of exit options are there?
This is probably a stupid question but is it all litigation or is there transactional work?

1. Depends on a few things. For example, how many spots will they be filling and how many people are shooting for those spots? At the firms with the most renowned L&E practices, you will usually have many more people shooting for those spots and it can be tougher to get. Its really just a function of the numbers. The best thing you can do is meet the people in the group, establish relationships, and force your way to the front of the line by showing constant interest and enthusiasm.

2. During 1L summer, you have a few options. I myself interned for a federal judge, who had a docket full of small L&E matter. So I was able to draft opinions on motions to dismiss and summary judgment in some small wage & hour disputes. This gave me some good exposure to L&E, and gave me something to talk about during OCi when talking about my L&E interest. You also have the option of maybe working for a small law firm during 1L summer. Many small firms focus on L&E work, whether on employee or management side. Either is great experience (and working for a plaintiff's side firm most certainly would not preclude you from eventually repping management). Its the L&E experience that matters.

3. See the above post. Lots of in-house options that you would never get coming from general lit. Businesses big and small need L&E counsel and many large corporations have specific L&E legal departments. You also have the option of moving into smaller, boutique L&E firms that may specialize in certain areas or industries. But in-house seems to be the most common route for people with a few years of experience.

4. Again, above post should cover it. Its a litigation-based practice that involves a substantial counseling aspect. Ideally, management never wants litigation to arise in the first place, so they want to establish policies and procedures, and act in a way that makes it so no litigation needs to arise (of course, it always does, but we are talking in an ideal world here). So you spent a portion of the day working on litigation matters, and another portion working on counseling matters, whether it be drafting an employee handbook, implementation of a new benefits policy, conducting a training on new anti-discrimination laws, etc.

[Anonymous User]

I'm also an associate at a big firm that specializes in l&e (littler, etc.) and will answer q's.

[ub3r]

Thanks for this! I don't have any new questions yet, but I'm interested in L&E law and I'll be keeping an eye on this thread.

[Anonymous User]

Thank you for doing this, sincerely appreciate your insight.

L&E is my area of choice and my goal is to end up at one of these large L&E practices. Did some employment litigation in-house during my 2L summer and took 6 L&E specific courses during law school and really loved it. I am spending a year after graduation doing a fellowship at the EEOC, how would these large firms view an applicant with that experience? Do they tend to view plaintiffs side work unfavorably or is any substantive employment litigation experience a plus? Generally, what do they look for in hiring laterals? Which experience do you think would give you a better shot at one of these firms, practicing L&E at a small/mid size firm or doing the Dept. of Labor Honors Attorney program? Are there any growing areas of employment law that I should look to stay on top of?

[Anonymous User]

Suggestions for someone looking to go from doing L&E work for local government to a L&E firm like Littler or Ogletree?

[Anonymous User]

Thank you for doing this, sincerely appreciate your insight.

L&E is my area of choice and my goal is to end up at one of these large L&E practices. Did some employment litigation in-house during my 2L summer and took 6 L&E specific courses during law school and really loved it. I am spending a year after graduation doing a fellowship at the EEOC, how would these large firms view an applicant with that experience? Do they tend to view plaintiffs side work unfavorably or is any substantive employment litigation experience a plus? Generally, what do they look for in hiring laterals? Which experience do you think would give you a better shot at one of these firms, practicing L&E at a small/mid size firm or doing the Dept. of Labor Honors Attorney program? Are there any growing areas of employment law that I should look to stay on top of?

Littler/Jackson Lewis esque associate from above.

While I can't comment on people coming over from the EEOC, we do have a couple of mid-levels who came over from plaintiff's side firms and the firm, or at least my office (in TX), doesn't frown on it at all. As long as you have substantive experience doing actual litigation work like drafting substantive motions, depo experience, etc., we don't care where you come from.

As for growing areas, at least in TX, there has been a big uptick in FLSA cases relating to oil industry. Also, LGBT issues in the context of Title VII, etc. are probably going to become a big deal.

[Anonymous User]

Thank you for doing this, sincerely appreciate your insight.

L&E is my area of choice and my goal is to end up at one of these large L&E practices. Did some employment litigation in-house during my 2L summer and took 6 L&E specific courses during law school and really loved it. I am spending a year after graduation doing a fellowship at the EEOC, how would these large firms view an applicant with that experience? Do they tend to view plaintiffs side work unfavorably or is any substantive employment litigation experience a plus? Generally, what do they look for in hiring laterals? Which experience do you think would give you a better shot at one of these firms, practicing L&E at a small/mid size firm or doing the Dept. of Labor Honors Attorney program? Are there any growing areas of employment law that I should look to stay on top of?

Littler/Jackson Lewis esque associate from above.

While I can't comment on people coming over from the EEOC, we do have a couple of mid-levels who came over from plaintiff's side firms and the firm, or at least my office (in TX), doesn't frown on it at all. As long as you have substantive experience doing actual litigation work like drafting substantive motions, depo experience, etc., we don't care where you come from.

As for growing areas, at least in TX, there has been a big uptick in FLSA cases relating to oil industry. Also, LGBT issues in the context of Title VII, etc. are probably going to become a big deal.

I'm also in Texas! thanks for the insight regarding FLSA. Good to know they do not frown on plaintiff side work.

[Anonymous User]

From what I've heard, a lot of L&E groups are slow, and as a result, associates in this PG have issues making hours and usually don't offer it to incoming law students as an option (at least in my market). I did a bunch of work as a summer, which I loved, and was thinking about specializing in it, but I'm so scared because I've either seen lean groups where everyone is overworked because there's still not really enough work to warrant hiring another entry-level or groups where lawyers come in at 10 and leave at 4 (& don't have kids/family or a chronic illness AFAIK).

[Anonymous User]

From what I've heard, a lot of L&E groups are slow, and as a result, associates in this PG have issues making hours and usually don't offer it to incoming law students as an option (at least in my market). I did a bunch of work as a summer, which I loved, and was thinking about specializing in it, but I'm so scared because I've either seen lean groups where everyone is overworked because there's still not really enough work to warrant hiring another entry-level or groups where lawyers come in at 10 and leave at 4 (& don't have kids/family or a chronic illness AFAIK).

Not sure what market you are in but in New York, at least, the big L&E groups have been extremely busy and have been actively hiring mid-level laterals.

[Anonymous User]

From what I've heard, a lot of L&E groups are slow, and as a result, associates in this PG have issues making hours and usually don't offer it to incoming law students as an option (at least in my market). I did a bunch of work as a summer, which I loved, and was thinking about specializing in it, but I'm so scared because I've either seen lean groups where everyone is overworked because there's still not really enough work to warrant hiring another entry-level or groups where lawyers come in at 10 and leave at 4 (& don't have kids/family or a chronic illness AFAIK).

Littler/Jackson/Ogletree Texas Associate here,

Sounds like you are at a bigfirm that has l&e as practice area. We're pretty busy here and no one is hurting for hours and we're looking for a mid-level right now.

[Anonymous User]

Summering at one of Paul Hastings/Morgan Lewis in the L&E group. While summer work is overall irrelevant, what type of work do you think I can expect as a 1st year/junior associate (if i get the FT offer)?

[Anonymous User]

Summering at one of Paul Hastings/Morgan Lewis in the L&E group. While summer work is overall irrelevant, what type of work do you think I can expect as a 1st year/junior associate (if i get the FT offer)?

Some doc review, research on discrete issues in connection with litigation and counseling, drafting client alerts, blog posts and other marketing materials (seems to be a lot more of this in L&E than in other practice areas given the constant developments in the law). Most firms give you credit for shadowing (my firm gives 200 hours to first years) so you should definitely try to tag along to depositions, arbitration hearings, trials, etc.

[Anonymous User]

Thank you for doing this, sincerely appreciate your insight.

L&E is my area of choice and my goal is to end up at one of these large L&E practices. Did some employment litigation in-house during my 2L summer and took 6 L&E specific courses during law school and really loved it. I am spending a year after graduation doing a fellowship at the EEOC, how would these large firms view an applicant with that experience? Do they tend to view plaintiffs side work unfavorably or is any substantive employment litigation experience a plus? Generally, what do they look for in hiring laterals? Which experience do you think would give you a better shot at one of these firms, practicing L&E at a small/mid size firm or doing the Dept. of Labor Honors Attorney program? Are there any growing areas of employment law that I should look to stay on top of?

OP here:

1. I think any L&E experience is good experience. No big firm L&E practice is going to shun you or look negatively on plaintiff-side employment work. For one thing, you are learning the fundamentals of L&E practice, which is never a bad thing. And also, lawyers don't "judge" other lawyers in that kind of layman sense and think that you couldn't possibly rep management if you have worked for the other side. To the contrary, lawyers will understand that you will rep to the best of your abilities whatever client you are tasked with repping. Your experience would be a huge benefit to you.

2. Having been through the lateral process as a very junior associate, I can say that its not too different from OCI-level hiring. Of course there will be discussion of your work experience, L&E background, writing skills, etc. But a lot of it is the same kind of personality-match kind of stuff. They will want to know whether you are someone who would fit well in their practice. You clearly have a passion for this area, so you will have no problem demonstrating enthusiasm and drive for it. So just match that with the same skills that you honed during OCI and you will be fine. Just an FYI but, as a younger lateral, grades still tend to matter quite a bit (since you haven't yet built up a work resume that is a reason to hire you in and of itself).

3. Any of those experiences could be great preparation. I can't say one is "better" than another. Its all about the substantive quality of the experience, what you worked on, etc.

4. It can never hurt to just read through current L&E news in general. Sure, there are lots of emerging issues in L&E when it crosses paths with new technologies or business models (ex. is a "like" on facebook protected concerted activity under the NLRA? are Uber drivers independent contractors or employees?) But many of the biggest issues relate to the bread and butter things like tweaks to the overtime exemptions to the FLSA. If you show that you stay on top of the current L&E news, it certainly can't hurt you during an interview.

[Anonymous User]

From what I've heard, a lot of L&E groups are slow, and as a result, associates in this PG have issues making hours and usually don't offer it to incoming law students as an option (at least in my market). I did a bunch of work as a summer, which I loved, and was thinking about specializing in it, but I'm so scared because I've either seen lean groups where everyone is overworked because there's still not really enough work to warrant hiring another entry-level or groups where lawyers come in at 10 and leave at 4 (& don't have kids/family or a chronic illness AFAIK).

OP here:

That is why its so important to be selective in choosing where you want to practice L&E. This isn't general lit where you can go from one firm to the next and the group is essentially the same. If you are at a big firm that doesn't make L&E a priority, the group essentially waits for a firm client to have some sort of tangential L&E issue. So the small group likely becomes swamped suddenly and then is struggling to find things to do the next day. Thats why I wouldn't even consider doing L&E at a firm like that, where the group is so marginal and no a firm priority.

In my market, L&E is never slow, especially not at a firm like mine that really makes L&E a priority (even though we are a big firm, we have a number of clients who come to us specifically for L&E help, while they may go to other firms for other areas where we have less expertise).

Make sure to visit and speak with the younger associates. See how busy they are, how their work flows vary, how many cases they are on, etc. I liked the L&E group I ended up joining specifically because it seemed like a great middleground. There was always a steady pipeline of cases and counseling work but it was much more humane lifestyle-wise than the general lit I was doing at my old firm.

[Anonymous User]

Summering at one of Paul Hastings/Morgan Lewis in the L&E group. While summer work is overall irrelevant, what type of work do you think I can expect as a 1st year/junior associate (if i get the FT offer)?

Some doc review, research on discrete issues in connection with litigation and counseling, drafting client alerts, blog posts and other marketing materials (seems to be a lot more of this in L&E than in other practice areas given the constant developments in the law). Most firms give you credit for shadowing (my firm gives 200 hours to first years) so you should definitely try to tag along to depositions, arbitration hearings, trials, etc.

OP here.

Pretty much this. During my summer, I did a few articles, researched some discrete employment law issues, reviewed and edited an employee handbook, and did some doc review on one of the large wage and hour matters (which is the majority of what a Paul Hastings/Morgan Lewis does. Unfortunately, this involves more discovery than other types of L&E work, but hey, thats part of being a junior.

[Anonymous User]

Summering at one of Paul Hastings/Morgan Lewis in the L&E group. While summer work is overall irrelevant, what type of work do you think I can expect as a 1st year/junior associate (if i get the FT offer)?

Some doc review, research on discrete issues in connection with litigation and counseling, drafting client alerts, blog posts and other marketing materials (seems to be a lot more of this in L&E than in other practice areas given the constant developments in the law). Most firms give you credit for shadowing (my firm gives 200 hours to first years) so you should definitely try to tag along to depositions, arbitration hearings, trials, etc.

OP here.

Pretty much this. During my summer, I did a few articles, researched some discrete employment law issues, reviewed and edited an employee handbook, and did some doc review on one of the large wage and hour matters (which is the majority of what a Paul Hastings/Morgan Lewis does. Unfortunately, this involves more discovery than other types of L&E work, but hey, thats part of being a junior.

L&E Summer here. Thanks for the input! Definitely eased my mind. I can deal w/ that type of junior work (hopefully)

[Anonymous User]

OP here. Just bumping to see if anyone else had Q's on this topic.

[Anonymous User]

OP: how often do you or your peers get to go to jury trial/bench trial/admin hearing/arbitration? I understand it's rare to go to trial at all but I'm wondering in comparison to other practice groups. Does it differ between a big full service firm's l and e dept or a smaller firm that has l and e as a central practice?

[Anonymous User]

OP: how often do you or your peers get to go to jury trial/bench trial/admin hearing/arbitration? I understand it's rare to go to trial at all but I'm wondering in comparison to other practice groups. Does it differ between a big full service firm's l and e dept or a smaller firm that has l and e as a central practice?

Its more of a function of the size of the firm than the group itself (though in my firm it certainly seems like L&E folks get more exposure to those things than people in other groups). In my old firm, which only handled the biggest, most prominent L&E cases, there would be far fewer trials, hearings, arbitrations, mediations, etc. Thats just because the huge cases drag along more slowly, discovery is more protracted, etc. At my current firm, we get many more single-plaintiff cases and smaller matters that actually move along quickly. And since these matters are fairly simple and straightforward, its often an associate running the matter for all intents and purposes. So you get more exposure to things like hearings, arbitrations, etc.

[Anonymous User]

OP here. Just bumping to see if anyone else had Q's on this topic.

Thanks OP. Any indication/advice on the ability to transition from management-side l&e to plaintiff side l&e?

[MadwomanintheAttic]

Hi! Thanks for answering questions. I've really enjoyed the responses. Here are a few more questions to add:

What do you find most challenging about your practice?
What do you enjoy doing the most?
Do you interact with L&E attorneys from other offices when working on your cases?
Can you describe a typical day? (I know this was asked and answered above and the response was is varies a lot, but to the extent you can what does a day look like?)

Thanks again!