T30 grad, bottom 10 percent, Northern California, still looking Forum

[Anonymous User]

Situation:

2.7GPA

-->T30 grad
-->Passed the February 2014 CA Bar. Licensed since July 2014.
-->Bay Area Native. Willing to work anywhere in Northern California.
-->Bottom 10 percent of class...didn't really pay attention in law school. Didn't participate much in school activities. Few journals and moot court.
-->No debt. In fact, I can work some shit job for a few years, but I really need some good experience/mentorship. I am a slow starter/learner, but speed up quickly. Upward mobility and learning are more important than pay at this point.
-->The only significant work experience I have is working as an associate attorney for a small family law firm for 8 months. Just got discharged and looking for a job.

Questions:

1. I was thinking of driving for Uber, document review, or substitute teaching since I can't find anything. I would like someone's thoughts on doing document review and flying all over the country for temporary jobs at 25-35/hour. I don't know much about document review TBH.

2. How does someone get entry level jobs that do not require any work experience? Every legal job I see on craigslist and indeed.com say "we require minimum 2-4 years work experience. How do I get those first 2 years?

3. Any online resources you would recommend besides craigslist and indeed.com?

[zot1]

Important question: why you got "discharged"?

[barkschool]

Important question: why you got "discharged"?

[jbagelboy]

I think lyft is more lucrative on a per driver basis in CA than uber. I applied to drive a lyft evenings when I was a summer associate in LA and it was solid.

How badly do you want to be a lawyer and what did you study in college? I would probably bail on the law thing and take another profession, since you have no debt. What are you interested in?

[84651846190]

You should give up on the lawyer dream and drive for Lyft.

[Anonymous User]

OP here.

Discharged because I wasn't billing enough and the firm wasn't generating enough business to keep me around. I majored in political science and regret it. Im thinking I should have done either engineering(the most useful major and the highest starting salary?) or went to medical school(more prestigious and respected than lawyers and law school). I have always wanted to be a lawyer and I am coming out with no debt, so I can start anywhere. Having passed the CA bar exam, might as well stick with it.

My favorite classes in law school were criminal law/procedure and torts. I am looking to pursue something in that direction although alternative career option ideas would help me out if anyone has suggestions.

Didn't have a great experience at a small family law firm for several reasons:

1. I was working under a very aggressive and moody attorney who kept pushing me to bill. He frequently threatened to fire me because I wasn't billing enough to even "pay for myself". My salary was abnormally low and I was billing at 200+ an hour and 3-4 hours per day. This might seem like nothing, but my salary was on par with college graduates. I did the math multiple times and the numbers didn't add up. I am under the impression the firm's overheard wasn't as high as he was making it out to be.

2. I was billing for more stuff than I wanted to. I sometimes felt bad for the clients. I realized why the general lawyer profession gets hated on. I had one assignment where I was to scan 5000 pages of bank records. It took me 5 hours and billed all 5 hours(at 200+ an hour). I billed the client over 1000 dollars just to scan documents. I also sat at the scan machine for 5 straight hours. The secretary couldn't do it because she "isnt that smart" and only I could bill for my time on that assignment. I was ordered to do assignments WAY before they were due(even when I knew issues would resolve or it would get continued) just to do more work and bill more to the clients. Over 75 percent of the time the assignments I would work on early would be futile as the issues would resolve.

3. I spent half my working day calling up/emailing clients asking them to produce documents or answer questions or something else. They often hated me for calling or contacting them because it meant they had to do some work(usually produce NUMEROUS documents) and they were also getting billed. There were times I had to remind clients 3-4 times over the phone and they were billed for 3-4 different phone conversations. They hated it and I hated it. Some client's told me to STFU or else they would write bad reviews on my AVVO profile. I would tone down the communication and then I would get railed on the other end by my boss for not "pushing the clients to get documents or other stuff in". It was a lose/lose situation.

[Anonymous User]

OP here.

Discharged because I wasn't billing enough and the firm wasn't generating enough business to keep me around. I majored in political science and regret it. Im thinking I should have done either engineering(the most useful major and the highest starting salary?) or went to medical school(more prestigious and respected than lawyers and law school). I have always wanted to be a lawyer and I am coming out with no debt, so I can start anywhere. Having passed the CA bar exam, might as well stick with it.

My favorite classes in law school were criminal law/procedure and torts. I am looking to pursue something in that direction although alternative career option ideas would help me out if anyone has suggestions.

Didn't have a great experience at a small family law firm for several reasons:

1. I was working under a very aggressive and moody attorney who kept pushing me to bill. He frequently threatened to fire me because I wasn't billing enough to even "pay for myself". My salary was abnormally low and I was billing at 200+ an hour and 3-4 hours per day. This might seem like nothing, but my salary was on par with college graduates. I did the math multiple times and the numbers didn't add up. I am under the impression the firm's overheard wasn't as high as he was making it out to be.

2. I was billing for more stuff than I wanted to. I sometimes felt bad for the clients. I realized why the general lawyer profession gets hated on. I had one assignment where I was to scan 5000 pages of bank records. It took me 5 hours and billed all 5 hours(at 200+ an hour). I billed the client over 1000 dollars just to scan documents. I also sat at the scan machine for 5 straight hours. The secretary couldn't do it because she "isnt that smart" and only I could bill for my time on that assignment. I was ordered to do assignments WAY before they were due(even when I knew issues would resolve or it would get continued) just to do more work and bill more to the clients. Over 75 percent of the time the assignments I would work on early would be futile as the issues would resolve.

3. I spent half my working day calling up/emailing clients asking them to produce documents or answer questions or something else. They often hated me for calling or contacting them because it meant they had to do some work(usually produce NUMEROUS documents) and they were also getting billed. There were times I had to remind clients 3-4 times over the phone and they were billed for 3-4 different phone conversations. They hated it and I hated it. Some client's told me to STFU or else they would write bad reviews on my AVVO profile. I would tone down the communication and then I would get railed on the other end by my boss for not "pushing the clients to get documents or other stuff in". It was a lose/lose situation.

And you want to go back into the legal profession?

[zot1]

Maybe look at alternative careers within the law?

I work for government so billing isn't a concern. Boss is also pretty badass.

In addition to other legal careers, you could look into policy jobs, specially with a poli sci background.

[Abbie Doobie]

OP here.

I majored in political science and regret it. Im thinking I should have done either engineering(the most useful major and the highest starting salary?) or went to medical school(more prestigious and respected than lawyers and law school).

this will probably sound harsh, but you sound like the kind of person who wouldn't be happy in any of the careers you mentioned. what you've described sounds not very out of the ordinary for a small firm experience, so you're probably in for more of the same if you land another gig. you'll probably be better off in a less demanding job like uber/lyft as you have mentioned.

2. How does someone get entry level jobs that do not require any work experience? Every legal job I see on craigslist and indeed.com say "we require minimum 2-4 years work experience. How do I get those first 2 years?

again, this will sound harsh, but you get those first 2 years by doing a good job enough job at your previous firm so that you wouldn't have gotten fired before you accumulated 2 years of experience.

[Anonymous User]

OP here.

The Uber/Lyft, document review, and substitute teaching were just ideas for temporary work until I found another gig. They weren't long-term permanent solutions although I appreciate the encouragement.

I just felt I was a billing machine there to just generate revenue for my boss(not for the firm but for him specifically). I didn't feel like I was doing any MEANINGFUL work that was absolutely necessary for part of my day. Maybe thats how all associates feel as they are sitting hours next to the copy machine or spending hours going through documents or working on assignments just to bill for the hell of it. If you claim this is very similar to any small/medium firm experience, then that is VERY troubling and I just walked straight into the profession from hell. Never understood the lawyers jokes until I became a lawyer. I am hoping this was just a fluke experience though.

Was intrigued because I have some friends with bachelor's degrees from average schools making twice my salary, working less hours and working in urban cities surrounded by multiple people the same age as them and multiple bosses that are fun to be around. They also push for excellence and hard work, but aren't on your back all day. Breakfast and lunch are catered as well. Transportation to and from work is also provided and they get health benefits. They do random HR, PR, sales, marketing, engineering gigs. Their work ends at 5 PM. Clients/Boss don't blow up their inbox or voicemail after that. No idea how these guys find those jobs.

I refuse to generalize about an entire profession based on one experience. I'm thinking I will target government jobs as the previous poster mentioned. I don't know many lawyers that are a joy to be around, but its just luck of the draw I suppose on who your coworkers/boss are. No billing is a huge plus for government work I suppose. Congrats on the previous poster for working under a great boss. I am hoping the small firm lifestyle and culture is NOT similar to what I went through.

Any other suggestions besides craigslist and indeed.com? Thanks again.

[acr]

I didn't feel like I was doing any MEANINGFUL work that was absolutely necessary for part of my day..

Welcome to the vast majority of corporate America

[deepseapartners]

You're going to have difficulty finding "meaningful" work if you had an existential crisis over billing clients for legal work which, while tedious, was likely necessary for their particular problem. I second the government suggestion - your low grades may preclude you from Big Fed positions but there's more out there if you apply to everything. That may also be your route to policy work, which is probably more what you are looking for.

[Anonymous User]

Haha very true. I think it was harder for me since I was working with families that were going through divorces. I was billing for random garbage and draining their retirement accounts and money that could have been used for their kid's education. Some of them were good people too. Some of my clients were 70+ and it was depressing. I suppose when you are doing corporate work or working for bigger firms you do the kinds of law where clients arent people and just entities/businesses/corporations. Much easier to bill heavily for random shit in that scenario and take a fat paycheck.

The scary part is my boss is HIGHLY reputable/ethical in the area and one of the best. I am sure much worse things happen out there for other small firms...I can't even imagine. You work on a project for 1 hour and bill for 2. You jump into your car to drive to court and lie about the time it took you to get there. Crazy.

[deepseapartners]

Just remember that a paycheck is better than no paycheck. Your gpa and the way your last job ended already limit your employability. I would focus on gov work but I wouldn't limit myself if I were in your position.

[SmokeyBar]

Another way to think about things: How did your clients get the $$$ they are using to pay you? By doing what you are doing to others. Don't feel bad at all. Imagine your friends are working for your clients and they are leaving at 5pm, laughing it up. You are a lawyer; you handle the details and nitty-gritty of Corporate America and its byproducts. Those clients have to pay the piper just like you do when/if you use the client's services.

[RaceJudicata]

Do non-profit work or something.

Legal services are a business, and businesses are there to make money. People hire lawyers because they can handle situations that the person is otherwise unequipped or unwilling to handle themselves. Do not feel bad for billing a client for the work they hired the firm to do (unless you are doing something unethical or fraudulent).

For profit businesses might not be for you

[RaceJudicata]

The scary part is my boss is HIGHLY reputable/ethical in the area and one of the best. I am sure much worse things happen out there for other small firms...I can't even imagine. You work on a project for 1 hour and bill for 2. You jump into your car to drive to court and lie about the time it took you to get there. Crazy.

Sorry for double post, but just re-read this part. Working on a project for one hour and billing for two is fraud. So is lying about the time it took you to travel to Court. Not sure how you have come to the conclusion that your boss is highly ethical?

[deepseapartners]

Sorry for double post, but just re-read this part. Working on a project for one hour and billing for two is fraud. So is lying about the time it took you to travel to Court. Not sure how you have come to the conclusion that your boss is highly ethical?

I think OP was saying that this boss had an excellent reputation, which contributed to OP's shock over the unethical behavior.

[Anonymous User]

I meant to say my boss knew how to run a firm very well and his reputation was very high in the community. I would consider him highly ethical. I am under the impression he was WAY MORE ethical than other attorneys which shocks me given my experience. He did not do any of the things I mentioned even though I was surprised to be billing 5 hours for copying and scanning which costs the client $1200 dollars. The client had to sell assets in his IRA(and incurred a penalty) just to pay for this scanning and copying. I also did not enjoy standing over a copy/scan machine for 5 hours straight to scan and copy 5000 pages of bank records and tracking every minute of my time. The secretary can't do it because she "can't bill any time."

I guess that's what lawyers do. Tell me my experience here isn't unusual or absurd and regular in the legal world and I will be terrified. I will go straight to government work even it means less pay and an income plateau.

I have just heard horror stories of attorneys out there way less ethical in other small firms that attorneys are doing the "work for 1 hour and bill for 2"(while facebooking...etc) or "put more time on the billing clock when driving to court by stopping to starbucks on the way...etc". Sure, 10-15 minutes here and there might not seem like a lot, but at a 400-500 dollar hourly rate it adds up. How can anyone really monitor the time spent?

Are all the attorneys here telling me they track every single minute of their billable time and have never added a few minutes here and there to their billables to inflate them in order to get promotions/keep their job? I'm not trolling/flaming here and just here to learn other people's experiences so I can decide whether to continue with private practice.

[totesTheGoat]

Are all the attorneys here telling me they track every single minute of their billable time and have never added a few minutes here and there to their billables to inflate them in order to get promotions/keep their job? I'm not trolling/flaming here and just here to learn other people's experiences so I can decide whether to continue with private practice.

I'm not an atty, but I do bill my hours at my firm. I don't inflate my billables. In fact sometimes I eat some of my billables in order to get an above-average complexity matter out the door within the fixed fee billing rate. This is common practice with jr. associates, as well. Being that I am currently being paid hourly instead of salaried, that sometimes means that I don't get paid for work that I do. Other times, I let the clock run when I'm taking a small mental break. When I've been staring at a client's paperwork for 4 hours straight, a 5 minute break to go get a drink and use the bathroom is on them as well. It usually pays dividends to the client when I can come back fresh and refocus on the job. If it starts creeping beyond .1, I'll stop billing and go take an actual break.

As a general response to this thread, I ask whether you're actually motivated to succeed in your career? Are you being supported by family, and getting a job is primarily a pride/keeping your parents off your back thing?

To be blunt, as somebody who has made hiring decisions before, if I were presented with a resume of a candidate based on what you have said in this thread, I would shred it in the first round. You don't have a marketable UG degree. Your law degree is hardly marketable due to the GPA. Your work experience is more of a negative than a positive. While I'm reading the information you provide in this thread, I'm thinking either you're set because your parents are rich, or you're hosed because you're so naive and entitled that you blame your laziness on your "very aggressive and moody partner."

I don't write this to be mean, but if I were you, I'd find a way to make a little money on the side and take a few months to figure your life out. I don't know how much family support you're getting, but your attitude tells me that you're probably not in danger of missing rent and/or a meal due to your lack of employment.

Go gain some perspective on how hard people work to keep themselves and their families alive, and see if that changes your motivation. Your posts are dripping of entitlement, and anybody who reads your resume will be able to sense it. 2.7GPA/below 90th percentile in law school plus being bounced from a law job in 8 months is the legal equivalent of writing your resume in crayon, but somehow it's the law firm's fault that you got bounced.

The fact is that you're going to keep getting bounced from opportunities as long as you think you're doing your part by billing 3-4 hours a day. Oh, and stop blaming and second guessing your boss. You know exactly nothing about running a law firm, and until you do, blaming your firm for your "bad experience" just makes you look bad.

[Anonymous User]

Fyi most people on this forum have absolutely no clue what life is like in small firms. Billing in biglaw firms is 1000x easier.

[los blancos]

I will say that billing 5 hours sitting next to a scanner sounds a lot like fraud unless that's what your time entry actually said.

[Danger Zone]

I will say that billing 5 hours sitting next to a scanner sounds a lot like fraud unless that's what your time entry actually said.

Yeah that's not billable work where I am. That's what secretaries are for.

[Anonymous User]

Fyi most people on this forum have absolutely no clue what life is like in small firms. Billing in biglaw firms is 1000x easier.

Ditto. Small firm associate here. There are many, many days where there is so little work that I'll bill .8 for the day and then have admin time for my own independent research. Then there are days when I'll bill 12 hours and won't have time to breath. But I'm currently in a slump where I'll be lucky to hit 100 hours (billable and admin combined) this month. Last month was the same way. Sometimes low billable hours are no fault of the associate and just the firm's business development. Other times not...but you know what I mean.

[Anonymous User]

Fyi most people on this forum have absolutely no clue what life is like in small firms. Billing in biglaw firms is 1000x easier.

Ditto. Small firm associate here. There are many, many days where there is so little work that I'll bill .8 for the day and then have admin time for my own independent research. Then there are days when I'll bill 12 hours and won't have time to breath. But I'm currently in a slump where I'll be lucky to hit 100 hours (billable and admin combined) this month. Last month was the same way. Sometimes low billable hours are no fault of the associate and just the firm's business development. Other times not...but you know what I mean.

OP here. Thank you. That is exactly my experience at my firm. I was let go because there just wasn't enough work around. I wasn't going to bill aimlessly obviously. I am sure there are many associates out there than inflate their billables just to stay around and not get fired. And nobody is checking. I could never do that. I would rather quit. I felt horrible after the $1200 scanning session. My employer claimed he couldn't afford to keep me around because my salary(which was VERY low) was higher than the hours I was billing. There just wasn't enough work around. So I appreciate the assumptions from above posters that I was lazy or entitled which led to me being discharged.

Some of the posters above are 28+ in age, married and may have kids or will soon have kids. They are drowning in debt and could still be law students. They will do anything for a paycheck. Most are billing robots at firms. I am fortunate not to relate to that and I am grateful every day. We all have difference situations and I have much to learn, but at this point in my life I would much rather be unemployed than work a shitty job(and I am not talking shitty as in prestige or pay of job...but the general experience). I am assuming my experience is similar to other associates at small, medium, and larger firms based on the posts from this thread. In that case, I will aim for government work or much rather leave the legal field. Thank you all for the feedback, minus some posts which were dripping with false assumptions.