How Hard is it to be a Professor W/O Publications? Forum

[Anonymous User]

Hi all, I currently attend HYS, and will work at WRLK this summer. I'm on a secondary journal, but have no interest in writing a note. Was wondering how hard it would be down the line to become a full-time professor.

I'd be open to getting an advanced degree (LLM, SJD) and I'm aware the publishing opportunities that some of those programs provide. Is that enough? Will a decent school (read: T1) hire me with a fairly prestigious background (at least as an adjunct to start) with the understanding that if I do well I'll get full time work?

[zot1]

It depends on the kind of professor you want to be. If you want to do something like lawyering skills, publications don't matter. If you want to be on the more substantive side, they will. However, a law review note will not get you a tenured job so don't sweat that.

[Br3v]

Hi all, I currently attend HYS, and will work at WRLK this summer. I'm on a secondary journal, but have no interest in writing a note. Was wondering how hard it would be down the line to become a full-time professor.

I'd be open to getting an advanced degree (LLM, SJD) and I'm aware the publishing opportunities that some of those programs provide. Is that enough? Will a decent school (read: T1) hire me with a fairly prestigious background (at least as an adjunct to start) with the understanding that if I do well I'll get full time work?

(1) If you have "no interest" in writing a note, why would you want to be a professor?
(2) Going to HYS will be a big leg up, but everything else on your resume (including really, the name HYS) is useful only to the extent that it can be used as a proxy to determine your future scholarship potential. If you have no publications that will be a red flag and count against you.
(3) You don't need an advanced degree, especially coming from HYS, but if the only time you can write will be during your time getting that degree, then earning the degree will be useful to the extent that you publish/get something ready for a job talk
(4) People typically don't "adjunct to start." Though people certainly adjunct while in practice and then end up becoming "traditional" professors, the fact that you adjunct will not be a real leg up and is often explicitly not an avenue to become a "traditional" professor
(5) Competition is fierce even outside of the t100 so if you are limiting yourself to some pre-conceived notion of "T1" from the start then you might need to reconsider

[DELG]

are you just crippling afraid of letting a door ever close

[Anonymous User]

OP here,


not at all. But I sure would like a job where I can get six figures for working 3x a week for about 4 hours a day, with a touch of office hours here and there

[rpupkin]

Hi all, I currently attend HYS, and will work at WRLK this summer. I'm on a secondary journal, but have no interest in writing a note. Was wondering how hard it would be down the line to become a full-time professor.

I'd be open to getting an advanced degree (LLM, SJD) and I'm aware the publishing opportunities that some of those programs provide. Is that enough? Will a decent school (read: T1) hire me with a fairly prestigious background (at least as an adjunct to start) with the understanding that if I do well I'll get full time work?

If you aren't interested in publishing anything, then it will be impossible to become a tenure-track law professor.

[lavarman84]

From what I heard, you don't want to adjunct. Apparently, it's looked down upon. But yea, as others have said, publications are pretty important to getting the job. Because that's what law schools are typically paying you for.

[Anonymous User]

Hi all, I currently attend HYS, and will work at WRLK this summer. I'm on a secondary journal, but have no interest in writing a note. Was wondering how hard it would be down the line to become a full-time professor.

I'd be open to getting an advanced degree (LLM, SJD) and I'm aware the publishing opportunities that some of those programs provide. Is that enough? Will a decent school (read: T1) hire me with a fairly prestigious background (at least as an adjunct to start) with the understanding that if I do well I'll get full time work?

If you aren't interested in publishing anything, then it will be impossible to become a tenure-track law professor.

This. Publishing is the whole point of being a professor, which is like writing notes for a living, and while I know it seems like a cushy gig and it's certainly not biglaw, publishing actually takes up quite a bit of time and can be mental torture if you don't love writing and research.

Unless you've decided you really want to teach, which means doing something like LRW or being a clinic prof, both of which require quite a bit of experience and much more work than 4 hours a week.

(Adjuncting as a side gig when you're a practicing lawyer is perfectly great. Adjuncting as a way to make a living sucks. Neither tend to lead to full-time jobs. I think a lot of people do start with temporary one-year visiting professorships, so be prepared to move around the country if you can get the jobs.)

[Traynor Brah]

OP here,


not at all. But I sure would like a job where I can get six figures for working 3x a week for about 4 hours a day, with a touch of office hours here and there

lol

[Traynor Brah]

From what I heard, you don't want to adjunct. Apparently, it's looked down upon.

I mean it pays like zero dollars, is more the reason that being an adjunct sucks

[Anonymous User]

From what I heard, you don't want to adjunct. Apparently, it's looked down upon.

I mean it pays like zero dollars, is more the reason that being an adjunct sucks

I think legal adjuncting pays quite a bit better than non-legal. But it's still not money you want to live off, no.

[lavarman84]

Hi all, I currently attend HYS, and will work at WRLK this summer. I'm on a secondary journal, but have no interest in writing a note. Was wondering how hard it would be down the line to become a full-time professor.

I'd be open to getting an advanced degree (LLM, SJD) and I'm aware the publishing opportunities that some of those programs provide. Is that enough? Will a decent school (read: T1) hire me with a fairly prestigious background (at least as an adjunct to start) with the understanding that if I do well I'll get full time work?

If you aren't interested in publishing anything, then it will be impossible to become a tenure-track law professor.

This. Publishing is the whole point of being a professor, which is like writing notes for a living, and while I know it seems like a cushy gig and it's certainly not biglaw, publishing actually takes up quite a bit of time and can be mental torture if you don't love writing and research.

Unless you've decided you really want to teach, which means doing something like LRW or being a clinic prof, both of which require quite a bit of experience and much more work than 4 hours a week.

(Adjuncting as a side gig when you're a practicing lawyer is perfectly great. Adjuncting as a way to make a living sucks. Neither tend to lead to full-time jobs. I think a lot of people do start with temporary one-year visiting professorships, so be prepared to move around the country if you can get the jobs.)

Yep. This is what I heard as well. The person I talked to said that adjuncting doesn't look good on your resume if you're trying to be a full time professor. The visiting professorships are what you need to do at the start.

[rpupkin]

Yep. This is what I heard as well. The person I talked to said that adjuncting doesn't look good on your resume if you're trying to be a full time professor. The visiting professorships are what you need to do at the start.

And you don't even really start there. With a few exceptions, those interested in legal academia start (usually after a clerkship) with a low-paying, multi-year fellowship. Those fellowships usually involve some teaching and lots of publishing. After you establish a publication record, you put yourself on the market and pray that some school (even if it's in a city that you would never otherwise want to live in) makes you an offer.

If someone doesn't enjoy researching and writing academic articles, pursuing academia would be an awful experience.

[03152016]

how plausible is it to publish while in biglaw and make the jump to academia later on

[zot1]

OP here,


not at all. But I sure would like a job where I can get six figures for working 3x a week for about 4 hours a day, with a touch of office hours here and there

lol

That is not the schedule of a professor.

[rpupkin]

how plausible is it to publish while in biglaw and make the jump to academia later on

It's very challenging. If you're willing to give up precious free time, you can still write articles, but it's hard to conjure up the energy to do this when you're working long hours at a firm.

[Anonymous User]

I think legal adjuncting pays quite a bit better than non-legal. But it's still not money you want to live off, no.

I have adjuncted at a T14 and in a University. Law school paid less than 1/2 what the University paid by the credit hour.

[lavarman84]

Yep. This is what I heard as well. The person I talked to said that adjuncting doesn't look good on your resume if you're trying to be a full time professor. The visiting professorships are what you need to do at the start.

And you don't even really start there. With a few exceptions, those interested in legal academia start (usually after a clerkship) with a low-paying, multi-year fellowship. Those fellowships usually involve some teaching and lots of publishing. After you establish a publication record, you put yourself on the market and pray that some school (even if it's in a city that you would never otherwise want to live in) makes you an offer.

If someone doesn't enjoy researching and writing academic articles, pursuing academia would be an awful experience.

Well, there you go. I mean...being a professor does seem like a cushy gig...but you have to actually enjoy academic writing. Or at least be able to suck it up and do it.

[fats provolone]

OP here,


not at all. But I sure would like a job where I can get six figures for working 3x a week for about 4 hours a day, with a touch of office hours here and there

lol

great thread

[Germaine]

Also keep in mind that 67% of law faculty hires at the T25 since 2014 have been JD-PhDs. It's not quite a requirement yet but it's getting there.

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm? ... id=2663614

[A. Nony Mouse]

I think legal adjuncting pays quite a bit better than non-legal. But it's still not money you want to live off, no.

I have adjuncted at a T14 and in a University. Law school paid less than 1/2 what the University paid by the credit hour.

It must vary by school, or maybe field. I know of legal adjuncts who get $7-8k per course (I think I've heard of law partners getting $15k). I know historians who get $1500 per course.

[landshoes]

You'd be looking at the Climenko fellowship or Bigelow fellowship (or similar at other schools). A couple of years to teach legal research and writing and maybe one other class; time to write and publish.

If you don't want to write you aren't going to get a real prof job at a decent law school.

[Anonymous User]

So we aren't in the exact same position -- I've published two pieces and have a COA clerkship - but I was essentially where you are a year ago (top school summering at top firm with 0 publication and 0 chance or expectation that I could publish anything). To a certain extent, opportunities to publish will evolve organically during your 2L and 3L year as you become closer with faculty, take on RA and TA positions, and network in the public sector. You need some individual motivation and intellectual curiousity, but its not entirely "do you author a note for journal or not." You meet the right partners/professors or contacts that can help you publish in another law journal; you might also have lay publication opportunities. One of my friends just got published in FA, and I'm co-authoring a piece with a non-law college friend in publishing for a different but major lay serial.

All this being said, you certainly need to put yourself out there in this field and academia isn't going to come to you just because you attend a t6 and work at an elite practice. But contrary to some popular mythos there isn't *one* way of getting to academia. Do quality work and let people know about your interests and while not everyone will give any shits, some will start opening doors for you. I also suggest keeping in touch with some people and faculty from college: they go places us lawyers and law students cannot.

[Anonymous User]

If you were the best student at your HYS who had graduated in the past several years, you'd maybe have a shot of getting a tenure track job without publishing. But you still won't get tenure without publishing (more than once--especially if you manage to come in with no pubs).

Or, you could go into practice and establish yourself as one of the most important lawyers in a somewhat important field. You could then probably get a full time position as "lecturer" or something. This, I believe, is your only way to a full-time spot on the non-clinic faculty that doesn't involve publishing. But it your goal is good hours, you also probably could retire at this point, do consulting, or something of the sort. Once you get Kathleen Sullivan-level, teaching will be far from your only plush option. It's also beyond belief that you'd be able to become a true superstar lawyer in pursuit of not having to work. The combination of brilliance, passion, and, yes, hard work required probably means that someone whose goal is an easy job is also super unlikely to become a famous hard charging lawyer.

Finally, if you don't want to publish non-clinic legal academia isn't for you. It's probably 75% or more of the job. The reason why it looks to you like your profs aren't doing much work is because teaching you is a minority of the time they'll spend "being a prof." Depending on the school and specialty, profs can end up working harder than your average big law partner (although I think for the most part it's not a bad work-life trade off for most profs).

Incidentally, having recently published my first article, it's probably even harder than you imagine. I guessed that the difference between writing a great 25 page seminar paper and a solid 50-60 page law review article would be more than whatever time it took to write the first 25 pages. But it was MUCH more than that. I probably spent 10x as long turning my H-grade HYS paper into a full article than I had writing the original paper to begin with (and it was not a paper I slacked on). All of the organizational challenges, the level of knowledge and detail that you have to have, etc, all multiply exponentially from a paper to an article. I love writing and I love researching, but it's hard to imagine someone who didn't finding this anything but miserable. Imagining taking all of the hard and not-fun parts of writing a 25 page paper, and then spending the next 200+ hours doing pretty much just that.

[Anonymous User]

I think legal adjuncting pays quite a bit better than non-legal. But it's still not money you want to live off, no.

I have adjuncted at a T14 and in a University. Law school paid less than 1/2 what the University paid by the credit hour.

It must vary by school, or maybe field. I know of legal adjuncts who get $7-8k per course (I think I've heard of law partners getting $15k). I know historians who get $1500 per course.

My situation was the exact reverse.