Will I be able to find fulfilling employment? Forum

[Anonymous User]

I'm struggling in my first year of law school and I'm not sure if I should stick it out or not. I'm not sure whether I'll be able to find work within the legal profession that will be fulfilling to me. I have ideas about what I want to do, but I worry that they are either too specific or too unrealistic.

Currently, the area of law I feel most passionate about is First Amendment Law. People being unfairly penalized for their speech is a legal issue that really fires me up. The thing that really bothers me the most (in a good way) is when people get fired from their jobs for something they write on the internet that doesn't even have anything to do with their workplace or anyone they work with. If I could be anything, I'd be a lawyer who represents former employees who have been fired under these circumstances. The trouble is, I doubt that such a job even exists.

I know that in most states, it's perfectly legal for an employer to fire an employee for expressing some opinion online that the employer doesn't like. But there are a handful of states (including New York, California, Colorado, North Dakota, and Montana) that have laws protecting employees from being fired for lawful conduct that they do outside of the workplace. However, I have no idea whether such laws have ever been used by former employees who have been fired for something they said online. In theory, it seems possible, but I haven't been able to find any actual cases of it. Even if it does sometimes happen, I wonder whether it happens enough for employment lawyers in those states to be able to spend a significant chunk of their time working such cases. How do I stay motivated in law school when I'm not sure if my preferred area of practice even exists or could feasibly exist?

I am interested in speech issues besides just the narrow issue I described above. But I'm sure plenty of law students think they're going to practice First Amendment Law but never do. I can't imagine there are many job opportunities in that area. How many specialized First Amendment lawyers are out there, and what do their career paths look like? What is the probability of success in such a career path? What kind of internships should law students interested in that area of law pursue, and what skills do they need to make their aspirations a reality? In what part of the country do they need to live and practice?

I'm not sure if there is much else besides what I just described to you that could motivate me enough to take on the grueling work of law school and the legal profession. Maybe I'll discover something else in a later year of law school that I'll become passionate about, but I'm not sure if I'll make it that far without some clear motivation.

I would appreciate any advice you could give.

[BigZuck]

Employment law is a thing, maybe you're interested in employment issues that extend beyond people getting fired for stuff they say/write?

I think you're right about Constitutional Lawyer not really being an attainable job

[inchipwetrust]

I would say at minimum stick it out till first semester grades come out then revaluate. Within first amendment you could try to get into doing sports, media or entertainment type work. It wouldn't be exactly the work you outlined in your post, but could be an appealing option if you're open to working in major markets

[Traynor Brah]

The joke about being a "constitutional lawyer" or, even more, a first amendment specialist, is that you should go to Harvard. In the 1960s. You need to be elite to have a small chance at this being a real thing. Do not get your hopes up or think it's a plausible outcome.

[Clearly]

School?

[BigZuck]

I don't know that sports/entertainment lawyer is really a fallback for someone who can't become a constitutional lawyer

These are things made up to lure in 0Ls, not practice areas that people reliably get hired into. Sure, these fields technically exist but I think you'd want to have broader interests than these to make law school a worthwhile venture.

I agree at this point might as well see how you do after first semester and then re-evaluate. Where you go to school and how much debt you'll be in are also huge factors to consider.

[Traynor Brah]

Within first amendment you could try to get into doing sports, media or entertainment type work. It wouldn't be exactly the work you outlined in your post, but could be an appealing option if you're open to working in major markets

OK but this advice is only applicable if OP is attending a legit school, gets top grades, and nails a few particular interviews. Not exactly a very likely option for any random 1L.

Also everything zuck said

[Anonymous User]

I'm not particularly interested in sports and entertainment law, though I'll admit that I don't know much about it. Copyright law is interesting to me (although I usually find myself siding against the copyright holders! From what I understand, most jobs in that area of practice involve representing the copyright holders). I'd like to avoid working in a major market, if possible. Small law is much more appealing to me than big law.

What about working for one of those public interest law firms that specializes in First Amendment issues such as religious liberty? Is that the kind of thing you need to go to an elite school and get perfect grades for?

Employment law is a thing, maybe you're interested in employment issues that extend beyond people getting fired for stuff they say/write?

Interested? Yes. But I don't know if other employment issues, in and of themselves, produce the kind of fire in me that I'll need to get through this level of work. I'd probably be motivated at an employment law firm in one of the states I mentioned if it handles the kind of wrongful termination cases I described in my original post at least semi-regularly. But right now, I don't know if employment law firms handle those kinds of cases at all.

School?

Paranoid. It's a top-50 school in the Midwest.

[lavarman84]

I think the real question is...do you have good options outside of law? Would you be able to find fulfilling employment outside of law?

Law school really isn't that hard once you figure it out. Especially if you do well 1L year.

If your options outside of law aren't good...might just be better to stick it out and work a job that you don't find overly fulfilling but get paid pretty well in. But others here would vehemently disagree with that.

I guess it really depends on what you're passionate about outside of the law and what you want to do with your life.

[mt2165]

Some biglaw firms have media/first amendment practices, though its probably different than what you'd imagine.

[Anonymous User]

I have several passions outside of law, but they're just as unrealistic as my passions in law.

Some biglaw firms have media/first amendment practices, though its probably different than what you'd imagine.

What are they like?

[JCougar]

You can generally be fired for any reason at all by your employer, including what you say outside the workplace. The three main exceptions are discrimination, union activity, and whistleblowing.

So as far as a job as a lawyer fighting for people who got fired for stuff they said outside of work, the First Amendment allows them to speak, but it doesn't prevent an employer from firing you for doing so. In the US, companies also have the freedom to hire or fire people for any reason they want, good or bad, nonsensical or not, at any time they want, with or without warning.

The only fairly sizable exceptions are government employees get due process (and may very well be unionized as well), and union collective bargaining agreements.

There might be some narrow state-level regulations for certain jobs, but there's generally not enough of these cases for any lawyers to actually specialize in them.

As far as defending First Amendment rights more generally, I'd look into trying to get something with the ACLU. But to have any shot at all working for the ACLU, you probably need to attend HYSCCN, but even CCN is pushing your luck. There's only a few positions like this that open up each year (possibly in the single digits). And about 50,000 young lawyers would like to get them.

[JCougar]

tl;dr version: the job you want doesn't exist.

[Clearly]

I have several passions outside of law, but they're just as unrealistic as my passions in law.

Some biglaw firms have media/first amendment practices, though its probably different than what you'd imagine.

What are they like?

This is why I asked you about the school.

[jbagelboy]

There are groups with well respected first amendment practices e.g. Cahill Gordon, but they represent media conglomerates and commercial newspapers or serials as defendants against government agencies, or handle pro bono matters for the firm in representing groups of citizens or social organizations that want their rights vindicated as plaintiffs. There are also fellowships, such as the First Amendment fellowship at the New York Times, that are great opportunities but also extremely selective (and prestige conscious; the last few years of fellows for that particular program went to Yale and Columbia).

As Zuck said, what you're talking about is an employment law practice. Now, large firms with big employment law groups e.g. Paul hastings actually represent companies as defendants against claimants like the one's you want to advocate for (or they do transactional work or consulting). You'd need to find a plaintiffs firm handling employment discrimination and free speech. I think this does exist, but its a lot of smaller firms that don't hire a lot of junior people and that probably take a lot of their representations on contingency.

It does sound like you're passionate abour helping people and actually interested in legal issues. So stay in law school for now and ride out 1L, reach out to people in the field and see what you come across. You'll probably be working for a small firm trying to build a book of business, and hopefully you didn't take out any loans to go to school (or you're pretty fucked). I tell most 0Ls/1Ls to get out while they can, so the fact that I'm not immediately encouraging that is noteworthy.

[Anonymous User]

There might be some narrow state-level regulations for certain jobs, but there's generally not enough of these cases for any lawyers to actually specialize in them.

The states I mentioned have statutes that prohibit any employer from firing an employee for lawful conduct done outside the workplace that doesn't conflict with some legitimate business interest. Montana even officially abolished at-will employment; an employer needs just cause to fire an employee after a certain probationary period.

How often these laws are enforced, how often former employees in these states are successful when suing their former employers, whether employers can just make up some fake reason for the firing, whether employers can argue that firing someone who develops a bad reputation through their speech is a legitimate business interest, whether such cases are common enough in those states I mentioned for any lawyer to specialize in them—those are the things I'm currently trying to figure out.

I have several passions outside of law, but they're just as unrealistic as my passions in law.

Some biglaw firms have media/first amendment practices, though its probably different than what you'd imagine.

What are they like?

This is why I asked you about the school.

My school is pretty good for biglaw, if that's what you meant. I don't know if I'm good for biglaw, though.

You'd need to find a plaintiffs firm handling employment discrimination and free speech. I think this does exist, but its a lot of smaller firms that don't hire a lot of junior people and that probably take a lot of their representations on contingency.

That's what I'm looking for. What do you think is the best way to reach out to and impress firms like that? How much more difficult is it if they're in another state?

[dixiecupdrinking]

Maybe spend some time on westlaw, see if there are published opinions citing these laws you're talking about, and note who is representing plaintiffs in those cases.

[Anonymous User]

Maybe spend some time on westlaw, see if there are published opinions citing these laws you're talking about, and note who is representing plaintiffs in those cases.

My initial research hasn't turned up much, but maybe I'm not looking hard enough. I guess the best way would be to reach out to somebody in practice in one of those states.

[BigZuck]

There's not really any top 50 school that's good for big law

You're almost certainly not going to get a big law job, or anything at a prestigious plaintiff's firm. I think that maybe employment law broadly speaking is attainable, but if you just want something narrow related to "free speech" then yes, it would make sense to cut bait.

I don't think that someone who is only halfway through 1L should necessarily know exactly what they want to do though so I would probably stick it out at least until the end of this semester. Whether you should drop out at this point is a lot more tied to your geographic goals, debt level, and school you attend then whether or not you're interested in a type of law other than First Amendment issues IMO.

[SportsFan]

There's not really any top 50 school that's good for big law

You're almost certainly not going to get a big law job, or anything at a prestigious plaintiff's firm. I think that maybe employment law broadly speaking is attainable, but if you just want something narrow related to "free speech" then yes, it would make sense to cut bait.

I don't think that someone who is only halfway through 1L should necessarily know exactly what they want to do though so I would probably stick it out at least until the end of this semester. Whether you should drop out at this point is a lot more tied to your geographic goals, debt level, and school you attend then whether or not you're interested in a type of law other than First Amendment issues IMO.

+1 to the bolded. OP I think you need to figure out whether you're ok with employment law in general, because you'll find it nearly impossible to immediately get into exactly the area you want.

[Anonymous User]

OP, I practice labor & employment law is a big firm setting, and issues of free speech indeed come up in a number of contexts. However, its often not in the 1st amendment context, but rather as a general principle in a balancing of interests (ex. how do you balance an employer's ability to create and maintain a positive image with an employee's right to voice certain complaints to outside parties?). Of course, that isn't a 1st Amendment issue since its a private employer.

But these notions of what can and cannot be said comes up often. For example, when can an employee speak negatively about her employer on Facebook? To what extent can a former employee share her knowledge of her previous employer's expertise/clients/processes, etc. once she joins a new company? When can an employer tell union demonstrators to leave their premises?

All of the above are issues of speech, though not in the constitutional sense. So perhaps employment law would provide at least some exposure to this area of interest.

[Anonymous User]

Assuming this school is similar to Wisconsin, Indiana or OSU, I think you should be more focused on getting good grades and finding a job than trying to find a job that fulfills you spiritually. With the exception of a handful of people in the whole country, this is a service based industry. As you mentioned, first amendment cases are not all that common. Further, when someone has a first amendment case, they aren't looking for a first amendment firm. They're looking for the best lawyer they can afford. It would be impossible for a constitutional firm, not to mention a first amendment firm, to keep the lights on. To put it another way, how many people that you personally know have been involved in a case involving the First Amendment? Now how many people that you know have been involved in a divorce, DWI or tort case?

[Traynor Brah]

Unless he's seriously drinking the cool aid or doesn't know his school's statistics, OP probably goes to UIUC, which does have decent biglaw placement.

But at any rate, OP, you need to seriously explore the profession and think about whether or not you would be happy in a generic small firm practice, as that's very likely where you'll end up. If you go to UIUC, also explore whether or not you'd like life as a generic biglawyer. I would ride out 1L either way and see how good your grades are; if you don't do really well and you are lukewarm on the profession, then it will be time to drop out and explore one of your other interests.

But, if you're taking out so much debt as to be, say, greater than 100K in the hole at graduation, I would pretty strongly advise dropping out sooner than later (particularly if you don't do well enough to make biglaw a real possibility). You're objectively not on a path to happiness if that's your situation and you are uninterested in the kind of work you will be forced to do.

[Anonymous User]

Like any decision you need to analyze it asking the following question: "Will I be satisfied with the most likely outcome?" The most likely outcome is that assuming you find gainful employment coming out of school (which is by no means a sure thing), you will be working with clients on matters not related to constitutional law. Thus, your happiness will come down to how narrowly your desire to practice law is contingent on working on First Amendment cases. If the idea is that it's unfair to punish people for speech and you want to help make the world more fair then it's possible you're really not that different from most lawyers who became lawyers because they are particularly sensitive to things like fairness and justice. If your interest really is that narrow then you really should leave while it's still early, and find something that will give you a better chance of finding fulfillment.

[Anonymous User]

OP I think you need to figure out whether you're ok with employment law in general, because you'll find it nearly impossible to immediately get into exactly the area you want.

I never expected to immediately stumble into the best and most personally fulfilling practice. I'd be fine starting out in a broader area of law and specializing as I go along. My worry is that I'll never work the kind of cases I described because they might not exist, even in the states where they are possible, or they might be so rare that I shouldn't expect to ever work on one.

But these notions of what can and cannot be said comes up often. For example, when can an employee speak negatively about her employer on Facebook?

Do employees in any state ever have a legal remedy when they get terminated for publicly criticizing their employer? I thought such cases were pretty limited. The stuff I was talking about is when somebody gets fired for saying something online that is completely unrelated to their employer or anyone they work with. That's what really gets me worked up, but I'd like to represent employees in the kind of cases you described too.