Secondary Market Salary Scale Forum

[Anonymous User]

I know first-year salaries are pretty easy to get information on but does anyone have more detailed info on what the salaries/bonuses are by class year in markets like Stl/KC/Denver? Also what the landscape is like for those who don't make partner and stay on as counsel, etc.?

[Anonymous User]

bumping this- anyone have anything?

[Anonymous User]

this question is too broad. tell us about you and why you're asking and maybe someone can be of some help, if not with the answer then with the process for finding it out. a general survey of what's inside black boxes across three different metro areas with different firms and clients is thoroughly useless for any purpose i can dream up.

[Anonymous User]

I know first-year salaries are pretty easy to get information on but does anyone have more detailed info on what the salaries/bonuses are by class year in markets like Stl/KC/Denver? Also what the landscape is like for those who don't make partner and stay on as counsel, etc.?

I wouldn't consider those cities as secondary market...IMO NY/SF/DC/Chicago are primary and LA/HOUSTON/DALLAS etc. are secondary.. Stol/KC/Denver gotta to be lower tier...

With that being said, I agree with

this question is too broad. tell us about you and why you're asking and maybe someone can be of some help, if not with the answer then with the process for finding it out. a general survey of what's inside black boxes across three different metro areas with different firms and clients is thoroughly useless for any purpose i can dream up.

. Your question was too broad for anyone to answer...

[Anonymous User]

Currently at an NYC V10. Lateralling back to a secondary market is a possibility at some point in the future, likely after 3-4 years if it happens. Curious what the compensation is like at that point.

[Anonymous User]

I know first-year salaries are pretty easy to get information on but does anyone have more detailed info on what the salaries/bonuses are by class year in markets like Stl/KC/Denver? Also what the landscape is like for those who don't make partner and stay on as counsel, etc.?

I wouldn't consider those cities as secondary market...IMO NY/SF/DC/Chicago are primary and LA/HOUSTON/DALLAS etc. are secondary.. Stol/KC/Denver gotta to be lower tier...

I think most people recognize places like STL and Denver as secondary markets and LA and Dallas as primary markets. The most reasonable distinguishing factor that I can think of between "secondary" and "primary" markets, especially if we're talking about payscale, is, well, pay. LA, Dallas, etc all pay market -- aka primary market. By that definition, somewhere like STL or Denver is going to be pretty solidly "secondary" -- the markets in these cities are established enough that there are a set of firms in each city that function like biglaw firms, that there is an established "market" rate for the city, and the market rate for the city starts comfortably in six digits.*

I'd defer to someone with a more detailed understanding, but my anecdotal sense of STL/Denver (which are similar), is that the biglaw-equivalent places start at around $125k and go up from there.

*Obviously this is a spectrum. Seattle, for example, is closer to a primary market than KC. And some place like Memphis is probably closer to being a tertiary market than STL.

[Anonymous User]

In midwest secondaries, it is largely dependent on the city, but I suspect the logic can be extrapolated to other regions as well.

That being said, competition for talent is what sets "market pay." Chicago and New York and LA and whatever other city has firms starting at $160k pay that much because to a large extent, they are competing for the students at the top of their class at a T14 school. And to a large extent these kids could be coaxed into traveling to work in Illinois, New York, or Cali for a few years. This competition for talent is why Chicago and LA will match NY when NY inevitably raises to $190 (see NY to $190k thread -- it's happening); they know that unless they match the raise, the talent they want will say "fuck it" and head to NY. In general I think this problem contributed and still contributes (to what extent is up for debate) to the firm merger bonanza, but that's another thread.

Secondaries don't generally have that problem. Indianapolis doesn't look to Milwaukee and Milwaukee doesn't look to Columbus in order to set their pay scales because to a large extent, these cities aren't competing with each other for talent. Sure, firms are competing for kids intra-city. But the markets are small enough to be exclusive. You always hear about "needing ties" to break into a secondary, right? That's because Indy doesn't want Milwaukee talent; Milwaukee doesn't want Columbus talent; the St. Louis could give fuck all if you aren't at least a Cards fan. They are free to compete intra-city only. So market-to-market, starting salaries can vary wildly.

That being said, you'll likely see first year associate pay anywhere between $95k-$125k. Some firms give raises in bands (years 1-3=$95k, years 4-5 $105k), some firms give raises every year. It's all crazy. Bonus amount and their structure can similarly vary. For instance, my firm in Indianapolis gives a stupidly generous 15k Christmas bonus every year, to every attorney. I'm pretty sure we're the only firm that even approaches that amount, but our starting salary is probably 10k lower than most of the other "big" firms here. We only have 5ish, lulz.

As far as the landscape for those who don't make partner and stay on as counsel, fuck if I know. Plenty of people do; most just lateral across the street for partner status. The pay, honestly, is not much different. You're looking at $300k for an entry level or workhorse partner and $250k for of-counsel folks. Super rainmakers can approach a mil. I hope this helps.

[mvp99]

In midwest secondaries, it is largely dependent on the city, but I suspect the logic can be extrapolated to other regions as well.

That being said, competition for talent is what sets "market pay." Chicago and New York and LA and whatever other city has firms starting at $160k pay that much because to a large extent, they are competing for the students at the top of their class at a T14 school. And to a large extent these kids could be coaxed into traveling to work in Illinois, New York, or Cali for a few years. This competition for talent is why Chicago and LA will match NY when NY inevitably raises to $190 (see NY to $190k thread -- it's happening); they know that unless they match the raise, the talent they want will say "fuck it" and head to NY. In general I think this problem contributed and still contributes (to what extent is up for debate) to the firm merger bonanza, but that's another thread.

Secondaries don't generally have that problem. Indianapolis doesn't look to Milwaukee and Milwaukee doesn't look to Columbus in order to set their pay scales because to a large extent, these cities aren't competing with each other for talent. Sure, firms are competing for kids intra-city. But the markets are small enough to be exclusive. You always hear about "needing ties" to break into a secondary, right? That's because Indy doesn't want Milwaukee talent; Milwaukee doesn't want Columbus talent; the St. Louis could give fuck all if you aren't at least a Cards fan. They are free to compete intra-city only. So market-to-market, starting salaries can vary wildly.

That being said, you'll likely see first year associate pay anywhere between $95k-$125k. Some firms give raises in bands (years 1-3=$95k, years 4-5 $105k), some firms give raises every year. It's all crazy. Bonus amount and their structure can similarly vary. For instance, my firm in Indianapolis gives a stupidly generous 15k Christmas bonus every year, to every attorney. I'm pretty sure we're the only firm that even approaches that amount, but our starting salary is probably 10k lower than most of the other "big" firms here. We only have 5ish, lulz.

As far as the landscape for those who don't make partner and stay on as counsel, fuck if I know. Plenty of people do; most just lateral across the street for partner status. The pay, honestly, is not much different. You're looking at $300k for an entry level or workhorse partner and $250k for of-counsel folks. Super rainmakers can approach a mil. I hope this helps.

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[Arboreal]

Important to consider this info, too, when comparing salary scales in different markets:

http://www.nalp.org/buying_power_index_class_of_2012

[badaboom61]

Important to consider this info, too, when comparing salary scales in different markets:

http://www.nalp.org/buying_power_index_class_of_2012

Yes, but don't take this info at face value; run your own estimated budgets in each market. These numbers are based on averages of cost-of-living indices, and are often heavily weighted towards housing. Housing in NY is twice as expensive as housing in Houston, but food in New York is nowhere near twice as expensive.

[mvp99]

Important to consider this info, too, when comparing salary scales in different markets:

http://www.nalp.org/buying_power_index_class_of_2012

Yes, but don't take this info at face value; run your own estimated budgets in each market. These numbers are based on averages of cost-of-living indices, and are often heavily weighted towards housing. Housing in NY is twice as expensive as housing in Houston, but food in New York is nowhere near twice as expensive.

I live in a town with a cost of living 25% above the national average and the food is almost twice as expensive and no where near the quality/taste of NYC. for 2000 a month you get a 3 bedroom in a nice neighborhood though

[RaceJudicata]

Important to consider this info, too, when comparing salary scales in different markets:

http://www.nalp.org/buying_power_index_class_of_2012

Yes, but don't take this info at face value; run your own estimated budgets in each market. These numbers are based on averages of cost-of-living indices, and are often heavily weighted towards housing. Housing in NY is twice as expensive as housing in Houston, but food in New York is nowhere near twice as expensive.

I live in a town with a cost of living 25% above the national average and the food is almost twice as expensive and no where near the quality/taste of NYC. for 2000 a month you get a 3 bedroom in a nice neighborhood though

These numbers are always exaggerated or inaccurate. I challenge anyone to live the same way in Chicago (83k) or San Francisco (115k) as you would in NYC for $160k. Its not possible.

Not only that, expenses tend to rise to the level of one's salary (or close to it). Sure there is cost of living differences b/w NYC and other cities, but the savings are not as profound as this chart would make it seem.

[emkay625]

If you can get a current student to help you out, they should have login credentials to NALP through their CSO. That would at least show you first-year salaries.

To the person who said Houston/Dallas/LA were secondary: most big firms in those cities (nearly all, at least all 40 in Houston/Dallas I applied to during OCI) pay NYC scale.

[Anonymous User]

I'd defer to someone with a more detailed understanding, but my anecdotal sense of STL/Denver (which are similar), is that the biglaw-equivalent places start at around $125k and go up from there.

This is pretty much my understanding from law school in the Denver area - I had heard $120k, but that general ball park. I know that Cooley at least pays market (they have an office in one of the Denver suburbs), though I don't know if any of the other true biglaw branches do (and I'm afraid I don't know anything about bonuses).

The thing to keep in mind about Denver is that the biglaw market is incredibly small. You just don't have any of the mammoth offices with 100s of attorneys like you get in NYC/DC/LA. So to add to the points about discussion above, the firms aren't competing for an awful lot of people, either. Between the top CU and DU students, and T14 kids who are from Colorado, firms have plenty of applicants.

(Of course if you really meant StL or KC then this is moot, but FWIW.)

[Anonymous User]

http://www.businessinsider.com/san-fran ... ity-2014-9

[UnicornHunter]

Lockstep is much rarer in secondary markets, so if you're looking to lateral from a V10 you might have to dust off your big boy pants and negotiate a salary. To the extent there is lockstep year to year raises are much lower than they are in NYC. Expect to take a pretty substantial pay cut.