Non-Vault firms and career outlook Forum

[Anonymous User]

What does the career trajectory look like for associates at regional big law firms? I am thinking of general practice firms with ~500+ attorneys that are Chambers "Band 1" in a handful of states with maybe one or two truly national practice areas. Quarles, Shook Hardy, Polsinelli, Husch Blackwell, and Davis Wright all fit this profile, but there are obviously many more.

Regarding exits, it makes sense that the v100 firms offer better portability beyond the secondary markets where firms like these typically have a big presence. How big is that difference?

Associate attrition is lower at some of these firms — sometimes substantially. Lower partner to associate ratios + lower billing requirements appear to make partnership more viable. How realistic is it to start at a regional firm with the intention of building a career there long term?

I'm interested to hear from those who started at a regional big law firm, or what factors would lead someone to choose to do so.

(Anon because classmates know me.)

[Anonymous User]

Bump

[Traynor Brah]

Vault rankings are pretty meaningless outside of NYC corp, and are especially meaningless if you're talking about Midwestern secondaries and parternship and what not. If you wanted to practice in KC, for example, and you turned down Husch Blackwell for a V64's satellite office because of VAULT PRESTIGE, you would be pretty silly.

[Anonymous User]

Been a bit since this thread started. I recently accepted a summer position at one of those firms mentioned in relatively major market (i.e. not KC or Phoenix) and my brother is a 3rd year associate at one of the firms named as well (different firm).

Reduced billables. Generally not expected to work crazy hours NYC corporate hours, but you are still going to probably be billing 1900-2000+. Long term careers opportunities within the firm are better, but there is a bigger emphasis on client / business development (although not until probably 3-4 years in really). With a semi decent amount of development + good relations in firm you'll probably make partner. So while you bill less than counterparts, you are expected to go out and find business more in that extra time. Exit opportunities are there and definitely doable, but you'll have to work harder for it than more prestigious biglaw associates do. From my brother's experience, a lot of these firms have a shortage of good midlevel-to-senior associates, so they don't want to churn and burn you like other biglaw places do. Bonuses are also determined more by client development/billables and aren't lockstep usually like other firms.

More responsibility earlier on, but this can also be a downside too. My brother (litigation) was in court by himself more times than he could count his first year, while his friends in other places had maybe been a handful of times. If your firm is trying to grow heavily in market, however, you're going to be juggling a lot of work, and sometimes work that feels way above your pay-grade/ you have absolutely no idea how to do it and everyone else is too busy to help you.

Firm culture can either be great/nonexistent. Firm offices outside of HQ like this are typically creatures of relatively recent smaller firm mergers, so experience can vary wildly by practice group (I guess this could be for any firm not just these).

Reasons I chose:
Pay: wasn't market but close enough. Size of office: <50 attorneys vs 100+ for other biglaw in city. Billable hours: < 2000. Culture: Everyone actually knew each other (rare in big offices) and everyone was genuinely friendly to each other. Amenities: Awesome freaking new office.

Edit: More thoughts. These firms are usually in a weird limbo. Corporate counsel a lot of the time like to hire the "most prestigious" firms, whatever the cost, because if something goes wrong then they can go to their ceo/board and say look I went to the best I couldn't do anything else. These firms are trying to fit in the more mid-market company area whose counsel want high quality work, but also can't afford/under pressure to reduce expenses the $1k/hr for that prestigious biglaw partner.

[20160810]

A number of the firms mentioned in the op have been vault ranked in the past...

[Anonymous User]

Been a bit since this thread started. I recently accepted a summer position at one of those firms mentioned in relatively major market (i.e. not KC or Phoenix) and my brother is a 3rd year associate at one of the firms named as well (different firm).

Reduced billables. Generally not expected to work crazy hours NYC corporate hours, but you are still going to probably be billing 1900-2000+. Long term careers opportunities within the firm are better, but there is a bigger emphasis on client / business development (although not until probably 3-4 years in really). With a semi decent amount of development + good relations in firm you'll probably make partner. So while you bill less than counterparts, you are expected to go out and find business more in that extra time. Exit opportunities are there and definitely doable, but you'll have to work harder for it than more prestigious biglaw associates do. From my brother's experience, a lot of these firms have a shortage of good midlevel-to-senior associates, so they don't want to churn and burn you like other biglaw places do. Bonuses are also determined more by client development/billables and aren't lockstep usually like other firms.

More responsibility earlier on, but this can also be a downside too. My brother (litigation) was in court by himself more times than he could count his first year, while his friends in other places had maybe been a handful of times. If your firm is trying to grow heavily in market, however, you're going to be juggling a lot of work, and sometimes work that feels way above your pay-grade/ you have absolutely no idea how to do it and everyone else is too busy to help you.

Firm culture can either be great/nonexistent. Firm offices outside of HQ like this are typically creatures of relatively recent smaller firm mergers, so experience can vary wildly by practice group (I guess this could be for any firm not just these).

Reasons I chose:
Pay: wasn't market but close enough. Size of office: <50 attorneys vs 100+ for other biglaw in city. Billable hours: < 2000. Culture: Everyone actually knew each other (rare in big offices) and everyone was genuinely friendly to each other. Amenities: Awesome freaking new office.

Edit: More thoughts. These firms are usually in a weird limbo. Corporate counsel a lot of the time like to hire the "most prestigious" firms, whatever the cost, because if something goes wrong then they can go to their ceo/board and say look I went to the best I couldn't do anything else. These firms are trying to fit in the more mid-market company area whose counsel want high quality work, but also can't afford/under pressure to reduce expenses the $1k/hr for that prestigious biglaw partner.

Speaking from experience at one of these types of firms (200ish lawyers in 4 states), this is a pretty good post. I will say that, as a 2nd year, the business development/networking pressure was on from day one. I'm leaving soon and I'll probably do a q&a thread in the near future for anyone interested in more on these types of firms. In a nutshell, I think they are quite often much better deals than V100s.

[Danger Zone]

Not Vault ranked? YOU'RE FUCKED

[trebekismyhero]

I mean it has been stated before, it really depends on where and what you want. For example if you are at Quarles in Milwaukee and want to go work in the Wisconsin state government or in-house at medium sized company in Wisconsin then your opportunities are probably much better than going to some vault satellite office. If you want to exit to fortune 500 company in NY or Chicago, probably not nearly as good as well known vault firms in major markets.

[20160810]

It's not even that Vault rankings don't matter in small cities - they don't matter outside of New York.

[los blancos]

It's not even that Vault rankings don't matter in small cities - they don't matter outside of New York.

Isn't Chambers CR everywhere even NY?

[Anonymous User]

This may not be the appropriate thread for this, but how do people go about actually getting new clients for a firm like this? I would think they care more about bigger deals/cases than the average few thousand dollar matters. How does a young associate go about trying to bring in bigger clients?

[Anonymous User]

Regarding exits, it makes sense that the v100 firms offer better portability beyond the secondary markets where firms like these typically have a big presence. How big is that difference?

Did some summer in-house work. The attorneys always talked about where new lawyers came from, so even if it wasn't important it obviously meant something.

ex."so and so went to HYS and spent X years in NYC at V-BigNameFirm"

I can't imagine that it doesn't lend a helping hand that their resume's carried bigger names. On the flip side, the staff was split 50/50 between T14 lawyers and local schools. So if you're moving "back home," the names on your resume not need to carry as much weight.

[Anonymous User]

I work for a "regional big law" firm (50-ish attorney office in a small market) and people have no problem with exit options. They just go in house to companies in this region or join other firms here the same as you would in any city.

[Anonymous User]

It's not even that Vault rankings don't matter in small cities - they don't matter outside of New York.

But would it matter if you start off outside NY but then try to break into NY?