Hanging a Shingle Forum

[Anonymous User]

I figure this topic will be shit on extensively, but I just never see much discussion of it. I assume it's because most people on here are at top schools where they have likely incurred too much debt for solo practice. Is anyone considering going this route right out of school or a few years out? I've been strongly considering it since 1L (3L now). I have minimal debt (under 20k) and have been doing my best saving money for up-front costs, and I'm reading what I can on solo-practices and starting a small business in general.

Again, likely this will just get shit on as a bad idea, and for many it probably is, but for those have done it or are considering it, figured they could post their thoughts/concerns/tips/whatever. Assuming you can live not making 100k+ (at first at least) on your debt, what are your major reservations? The actual work? Finding clients? Getting paid?

[RaceJudicata]

Not going to shit on you. And I think it is a completely valid and understandable thing to want to pursue. Hell, whats better than being your own boss. I'm still in school so have no experience, but I have definitely thought of going down this road, and this is where I run into major problems... so take it for what is worth (probably not much)

1. Costs
-- Huge amount of costs to get this up and running (forget paper, software, etc - you need insurance, some office space (if you ever want clients to come visit), advertising, etc.)

2. Clients
-- Getting clients is going to be TOUGH. Unless you have family connections, friends who make their company's business decisions, etc you are going to run into a lot of trouble. This is different if you have a lot of business experience prior to Law school. But if you have 1-5 years, you probably wont have many people in your network who are currently paying for legal services. Let alone a sustainable amount of business.

3. Knowledge
-- A lot goes into running a legal practice. Working in a firm for a bit (even a small one), you see how much infrastructure there is. Think about all of the generic forms, sample complaints, briefs, articles of incorporation/etc. YOU will have to create those.

4. Just my 2 cents.. so again, may be worthless.

[nmic]

What type of law do you want to practice? I think the only successful solo practitioners that I know are the ones who do immigration work and have connections with certain local communities.

[Lacepiece23]

There is this blog and podcast I stumpled upon a while back about a coach who teaches people how to be solo practioners. I forget her name, but it might be worth looking into or googling around.

[Easy-E]

Not going to shit on you. And I think it is a completely valid and understandable thing to want to pursue. Hell, whats better than being your own boss. I'm still in school so have no experience, but I have definitely thought of going down this road, and this is where I run into major problems... so take it for what is worth (probably not much)

1. Costs
-- Huge amount of costs to get this up and running (forget paper, software, etc - you need insurance, some office space (if you ever want clients to come visit), advertising, etc.)

2. Clients
-- Getting clients is going to be TOUGH. Unless you have family connections, friends who make their company's business decisions, etc you are going to run into a lot of trouble. This is different if you have a lot of business experience prior to Law school. But if you have 1-5 years, you probably wont have many people in your network who are currently paying for legal services. Let alone a sustainable amount of business.

3. Knowledge
-- A lot goes into running a legal practice. Working in a firm for a bit (even a small one), you see how much infrastructure there is. Think about all of the generic forms, sample complaints, briefs, articles of incorporation/etc. YOU will have to create those.

4. Just my 2 cents.. so again, may be worthless.

Fuck it, I'm the OP. Bad use of anon function really.

Definitely agree about costs, however office shares/virtual offices are very viable, at least for a short period. That can represent a huge savings over renting a $900/mo space. I understand advertising is one of the biggest costs new layers overlook. I've also read malpractice insurance isn't nearly as expensive as one might think, I think around $500/year?

Finding clients is difficult as well. I've heard mixed reviews of referral services, although referrals from other attorneys is apparently credited. The work won't be glamorous but I don't think anyone is considering solo-practice for the prestige. I actually do have experience prior to law school that has netted me some considerable contacts, however I can't go ahead and bank on them bringing their work to me.

As far as forms and such, no need to reinvent the wheel. I know my state's Practice Series has extremely useful guides as to form of documents. I'm not sure what is included in the Lexis solo-practice package (cheapest I believe), but if trial documents are available, that can be very useful I'm sure. I plan to print as much shit as possible when my student Westlaw pass is near running out. Those Practice Series (I dunno if every state has this?) have been super helpful in my clinic work/interning.

[Easy-E]

There is this blog and podcast I stumpled upon a while back about a coach who teaches people how to be solo practioners. I forget her name, but it might be worth looking into or googling around.

Lawyerist maybe? I listened to an episode on building a virtual practice, but I don't think it's specific to solo/small practice or anything.

[Easy-E]

What type of law do you want to practice? I think the only successful solo practitioners that I know are the ones who do immigration work and have connections with certain local communities.

I'd love to do consumer protection. I've also considered including family law, while I know many hate it, I've dealt my clinic family work without issue, and there isn't a shortage of it. The only attorneys I know in solo/small practices are older, but they work in a wide variety of fields (crim/PI/family).

[Lacepiece23]

What type of law do you want to practice? I think the only successful solo practitioners that I know are the ones who do immigration work and have connections with certain local communities.

I'd love to do consumer protection. I've also considered including family law, while I know many hate it, I've dealt my clinic family work without issue, and there isn't a shortage of it. The only attorneys I know in solo/small practices are older, but they work in a wide variety of fields (crim/PI/family).

I know this isn't helpful either, but I say just go and do it. Read up on it and go for what you want. I read up on it a fair amount my 3L year. Decided that it might be an option that I want to revist. But you need to ask yourself whether you can run your own business, attract business, and whether you will be a good lawyer. In large part, I think it is a bet on yourself. There is nothing wrong with betting on yourself, but you could also lose and that loss will hurt more.

People are risk adverse and scared. That is why hanging a shingle isn't seen as a valid option.

[crumb cake]

I'm not planning on going solo, but I thought these were interesting reads:

https://www.reddit.com/r/LawFirm
https://www.reddit.com/r/LawFirm/commen ... e_bag_and/
https://www.reddit.com/r/LawFirm/commen ... in_review/

[dixiecupdrinking]

Good luck. Going solo would be fun. But there is a shitload to learn before you can competently represent someone on almost any case. You will need good mentors at a minimum.

[Easy-E]

I'm not planning on going solo, but I thought these were interesting reads:

https://www.reddit.com/r/LawFirm
https://www.reddit.com/r/LawFirm/commen ... e_bag_and/
https://www.reddit.com/r/LawFirm/commen ... in_review/

I've actually read these, good stuff. There was also a similar set of posts by a solo attorney who is actually in my state doing work I would like to do, which was great.

My school has a post-grad program that is basically geared towards teaching new lawyers to work solo. I know that sounds like law school sales-BS/employment stat boosting (not sure if they count in, whatever), but it's basically just a low-bono firm within the school that functions like a teaching hospital for lawyers, if that makes any sense. It's certainly intriguing, and the professor/dean who runs it is a favorite of mine and has said I'm a shoe-in for the program if I'm interested. It pays a stipend equivalent to what I'm living on now (not loans) without eating ramen every day. Just thought it was worth mentioning this, something that eases you out of the non-practical nature of law school could be good, or it could be a waste of time.

[Easy-E]

Good luck. Going solo would be fun. But there is a shitload to learn before you can competently represent someone on almost any case. You will need good mentors at a minimum.

Definitely. The freedom is really what interests me. The program I mention above would provide some excellent mentoring, and I believe you get some say in your cases. A close friend's parents have a small practice and have been very helpful to me in the past as far as making connections. I may ask them if they know anyone I could speak to who works in the fields in which I'd like to practice.

[Easy-E]

What type of law do you want to practice? I think the only successful solo practitioners that I know are the ones who do immigration work and have connections with certain local communities.

I'd love to do consumer protection. I've also considered including family law, while I know many hate it, I've dealt my clinic family work without issue, and there isn't a shortage of it. The only attorneys I know in solo/small practices are older, but they work in a wide variety of fields (crim/PI/family).

I know this isn't helpful either, but I say just go and do it. Read up on it and go for what you want. I read up on it a fair amount my 3L year. Decided that it might be an option that I want to revist. But you need to ask yourself whether you can run your own business, attract business, and whether you will be a good lawyer. In large part, I think it is a bet on yourself. There is nothing wrong with betting on yourself, but you could also lose and that loss will hurt more.

People are risk adverse and scared. That is why hanging a shingle isn't seen as a valid option.

Yeah, it's definitely high risk-high reward, and many can't even take the risk due to debt. It's not that I'm not risk-averse, although I do have somewhat of safety net in place (won't go into details here).

[cocobyrum]

I worked for a solo practitioner (family law) before going to school. I will never, ever do it. But I can understand why some people may want to. Here are some additional things to keep in mind:

- When you do get an office, share one with some other small firms. We had two other solos, and a small firm in the same large suite, so we had all the amenities, shared support staff and equipment, conference room, kitchen, etc. Try to keep your overhead as low as you can, while still looking respectable to clients.

- You're going to be splitting your time between legal work and small business management. We had to spend a lot of time doing billing, advertising, collections (this is seriously awful), and all the grunt work that usually gets passed on to support staff at firms. So not only will you be generally charging less, you will have less time to do it because you'll be spending a lot of time running a business & not billing.

- You're not really getting "freedom." You're the only one representing these clients, and you don't have the support net of the firm to cover things for you if you want/need to take time off or take a vacation.

My boss never lacked for clients or money, but he spent a lot on advertising, and was on several lawyer referral services. He also became minor's counsel on cases for judges he liked, which makes some money, and I think made him look even better in front of those judges for his other cases. He was active on a few local listservs with other attorneys, and used them for advice or help when he needed it.

[Easy-E]

I worked for a solo practitioner (family law) before going to school. I will never, ever do it. But I can understand why some people may want to. Here are some additional things to keep in mind:

- When you do get an office, share one with some other small firms. We had two other solos, and a small firm in the same large suite, so we had all the amenities, shared support staff and equipment, conference room, kitchen, etc. Try to keep your overhead as low as you can, while still looking respectable to clients.

- You're going to be splitting your time between legal work and small business management. We had to spend a lot of time doing billing, advertising, collections (this is seriously awful), and all the grunt work that usually gets passed on to support staff at firms. So not only will you be generally charging less, you will have less time to do it because you'll be spending a lot of time running a business & not billing.

- You're not really getting "freedom." You're the only one representing these clients, and you don't have the support net of the firm to cover things for you if you want/need to take time off or take a vacation.

My boss never lacked for clients or money, but he spent a lot on advertising, and was on several lawyer referral services. He also became minor's counsel on cases for judges he liked, which makes some money, and I think made him look even better in front of those judges for his other cases. He was active on a few local listservs with other attorneys, and used them for advice or help when he needed it.

Definitely agree about sharing an office at first, assuming you have permanent location rather than just reserving office space when needed, which is an option too. And yeah, being a solo is half being a lawyer half running a business.

By freedom, I didn't mean working 2 days a week from the beach or anything, I guess I mean freedom from working for someone. I've already grown very weary of working for other (older) lawyers.

Like I mentioned, advertising sounds like its a cost many new lawyers overlook. I'm budgeting for it for sure. Heard mixed reviews on referral services, not familiar with working as minor counsel but seems like a good idea for a family practice. Mind elaborating a little on these local listservs, I admit I'm not familiar. Thank you for the post.

[Anonymous User]

I'm a second year (almost third year) associate and I'm planning the launch of my own within a few months. I hate, hate, hate the firm atmosphere and, while I could switch firms, I don't think that any other firm will be significantly different from my current one in the ways that matter to me. I am not all about money, so I am not gunning for partner. In fact, I think the prospect of owning a firm with some of the assholes I currently work for would be hell. So that leaves me with starting my own firm and owning my business by myself. I plan to practice bankruptcy, representing debtors, and, since I have a real estate license, I plan to do real estate as well. Hopefully combining the two areas and focusing on distressed properties. If you have the desire to do it, then go for it. As a knowledgeable mentor told me "you have age on your side - if it doesn't work, then you just get a job again." Life is too short to not do what you want to do.

[Easy-E]

I'm a second year (almost third year) associate and I'm planning the launch of my own within a few months. I hate, hate, hate the firm atmosphere and, while I could switch firms, I don't think that any other firm will be significantly different from my current one in the ways that matter to me. I am not all about money, so I am not gunning for partner. In fact, I think the prospect of owning a firm with some of the assholes I currently work for would be hell. So that leaves me with starting my own firm and owning my business by myself. I plan to practice bankruptcy, representing debtors, and, since I have a real estate license, I plan to do real estate as well. Hopefully combining the two areas and focusing on distressed properties. If you have the desire to do it, then go for it. As a knowledgeable mentor told me "you have age on your side - if it doesn't work, then you just get a job again." Life is too short to not do what you want to do.

I've heard mixed things about bankruptcy work. The clerk for the judge I interned for 1L said he loved it (went to a small practice after clerking), but I've read that it tends to take up a shit ton of time (constant client calls, requesting more documents) vs. the payoff. Of course, if you've done the work you know how you feel about it.

I guess my main thought right now is what to practice. Like I said, I'm interested in consumer protection, but my understanding is that it's most or entirely contingency work. I don't want to overextend myself, but it seems like a good idea to have at least one hourly practice area to basically keep the lights on. Family law or crim seem like popular choices to fit this need, I think it just sounds strange to practice consumer protection and family law. Just doesn't strike me as cohesive, but maybe that's dumb.

I'm almost certain this is what I want to do, I'm just trying to learn everything I can. I think the post-grad program my school has might be the best idea, as it gives me some mentored-experience for a year and more time to squirrel away cash.

[smallfirmassociate]

Plaintiffs' contingency work = the need to advance costs. Expert witnesses and other trial preparation costs can add up in a hurry, and your client isn't paying those until (and unless) you win. If you intend to go that route as a solo, you need cash in the firm trust account.

[lymenheimer]

I wouldn't be so quick to assume that you'd get shit on for this. It may be TLS but there are plenty of helpful resources on here and plenty of people that end up in this position with much more debt than you. There was a pretty large post about advertising for a small (solo?) practice. I haven't found it to link, but if I do I will be sure to. It included some helpful information outside of advertising as well. May be worth a search.

[Easy-E]

I wouldn't be so quick to assume that you'd get shit on for this. It may be TLS but there are plenty of helpful resources on here and plenty of people that end up in this position with much more debt than you. There was a pretty large post about advertising for a small (solo?) practice. I haven't found it to link, but if I do I will be sure to. It included some helpful information outside of advertising as well. May be worth a search.

I just assume everything on TLS will get shit on, although it has been immensely helpful to me throughout and prior to law school. I've read the "Hanging a Shingle - 7 Years Later" thread, that seemed to be the most in-depth I saw. Good info in there.

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... p?t=156007

[lymenheimer]

I wouldn't be so quick to assume that you'd get shit on for this. It may be TLS but there are plenty of helpful resources on here and plenty of people that end up in this position with much more debt than you. There was a pretty large post about advertising for a small (solo?) practice. I haven't found it to link, but if I do I will be sure to. It included some helpful information outside of advertising as well. May be worth a search.

I just assume everything on TLS will get shit on, although it has been immensely helpful to me throughout and prior to law school. I've read the "Hanging a Shingle - 7 Years Later" thread, that seemed to be the most in-depth I saw. Good info in there.

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... p?t=156007

fair point. On a quick search I was unable to find the post i mentioned (the above is not the one I saw), but I will keep looking. Good luck!

[nealric]

I figure this topic will be shit on extensively, but I just never see much discussion of it. I assume it's because most people on here are at top schools where they have likely incurred too much debt for solo practice. Is anyone considering going this route right out of school or a few years out? I've been strongly considering it since 1L (3L now). I have minimal debt (under 20k) and have been doing my best saving money for up-front costs, and I'm reading what I can on solo-practices and starting a small business in general.

Again, likely this will just get shit on as a bad idea, and for many it probably is, but for those have done it or are considering it, figured they could post their thoughts/concerns/tips/whatever. Assuming you can live not making 100k+ (at first at least) on your debt, what are your major reservations? The actual work? Finding clients? Getting paid?

As someone who has been practicing about 5 years, I would say the biggest obstacle is simply that you aren't going to be a very good lawyer straight out of law school. It just takes time to learn, but it's very difficult to learn all by yourself. More likely, you will just reinforce your own bad habits and end up a mediocre lawyer down the line. I'm sure there are talented exceptions, but I certainly wasn't one when I started.

Additionally, you face the devil's dilemma of only taking very simple cases or quickly getting in over your head. The former will prevent you from learning (which is job #1 as a baby lawyer), the latter could cause a very bad result for you and your clients. For what it's worth, although I handle matters independently now, I still would not feel comfortable in a solo setting. I still have a lot of development in front of me.

[Easy-E]

I figure this topic will be shit on extensively, but I just never see much discussion of it. I assume it's because most people on here are at top schools where they have likely incurred too much debt for solo practice. Is anyone considering going this route right out of school or a few years out? I've been strongly considering it since 1L (3L now). I have minimal debt (under 20k) and have been doing my best saving money for up-front costs, and I'm reading what I can on solo-practices and starting a small business in general.

Again, likely this will just get shit on as a bad idea, and for many it probably is, but for those have done it or are considering it, figured they could post their thoughts/concerns/tips/whatever. Assuming you can live not making 100k+ (at first at least) on your debt, what are your major reservations? The actual work? Finding clients? Getting paid?

As someone who has been practicing about 5 years, I would say the biggest obstacle is simply that you aren't going to be a very good lawyer straight out of law school. It just takes time to learn, but it's very difficult to learn all by yourself. More likely, you will just reinforce your own bad habits and end up a mediocre lawyer down the line. I'm sure there are talented exceptions, but I certainly wasn't one when I started.

Additionally, you face the devil's dilemma of only taking very simple cases or quickly getting in over your head. The former will prevent you from learning (which is job #1 as a baby lawyer), the latter could cause a very bad result for you and your clients. For what it's worth, although I handle matters independently now, I still would not feel comfortable in a solo setting. I still have a lot of development in front of me.

Missed this post. I definitely agree that it's a problem, but I don't think that's limited to solo practice. I would wager that you could easily adopt plenty of bad habits from whatever attorney is your mentor. I don't really know how biglaw functions, but it seems like this would be the best environment, since you would be learning from multiple sources. Would be interesting to hear from someone who was biglaw for some time and then went solo by choice. That said, I think all of this goes back to law school's sucking at giving practical education.

I agree on the second point though. I know a big hurdle is learning to say no to the wrong cases, but when you are struggling at first, it must be hard to let money (or so you think) go out the door.

[ggocat]

Good luck with the endeavor. Some respectable resources include books by Jan Foonberg. My law school had his seminal book, How to Start and Build a Law Practice. It's a little outdated now, I'm sure, especially topics dealing with technology. (I read it 10 years ago and even then thought it was outdated). But probably worth a read nonetheless. Here's a short comment on the book by a solo at Above The Law. http://abovethelaw.com/2013/12/foonberg-was-first/

My major reservation about hanging a shingle would be finding clients. Also, I am pretty averse to risk at this point in my life (primary breadwinner for family of 4). Going solo seems risky -- at least, too risky to give up my gubmint jerb.

There is this blog and podcast I stumpled upon a while back about a coach who teaches people how to be solo practioners. I forget her name, but it might be worth looking into or googling around.

Lawyerist maybe? I listened to an episode on building a virtual practice, but I don't think it's specific to solo/small practice or anything.

Maybe Susan Cartier Liebel?

[Easy-E]

Good luck with the endeavor. Some respectable resources include books by Jan Foonberg. My law school had his seminal book, How to Start and Build a Law Practice. It's a little outdated now, I'm sure, especially topics dealing with technology. (I read it 10 years ago and even then thought it was outdated). But probably worth a read nonetheless. Here's a short comment on the book by a solo at Above The Law. http://abovethelaw.com/2013/12/foonberg-was-first/

My major reservation about hanging a shingle would be finding clients. Also, I am pretty averse to risk at this point in my life (primary breadwinner for family of 4). Going solo seems risky -- at least, too risky to give up my gubmint jerb.

There is this blog and podcast I stumpled upon a while back about a coach who teaches people how to be solo practioners. I forget her name, but it might be worth looking into or googling around.

Lawyerist maybe? I listened to an episode on building a virtual practice, but I don't think it's specific to solo/small practice or anything.

Maybe Susan Cartier Liebel?

I started reading his "How to Start and Build" book last week. My school only had a copy from like 1996, this one seems pretty current but I haven't read much yet.

And yeah, it isn't right for everybody. I would never consider it in your situation, just too much at risk.