Firms with "Flexible Vacation" Policies - Raw Deal? Forum

[Anonymous User]

Most New York lockstep firms provide four weeks paid vacation to a first year associate, which then increases to five weeks and six weeks as you become more senior. (This was the policy at the V5 I spent one summer at).

However, there are some firms that have open vacation policies where you can take as many days of vacation wherever you want. (This was the policy at a non-NY firm I spent a different summer at). As a practical matter, what this really seems to mean is that these firms don't offer any paid vacation; you just don't have a limit on the number of days without pay you can take. Isn't this just effectively taking a four week pay cut, which means the firm pays below market? Is there a catch anywhere, or are these policies just a shit deal?

[Tiago Splitter]

By all accounts the unlimited vacation thing is worse than just getting your straight four weeks. The killer is that you don't get paid for accrued vacation when you leave, so you leave a lot of money on the table if you don't take it all. But if you are able to normally take 4 (or more) weeks every year under an unlimited policy then you're doing just fine.

Re-reading your post I see that you think the unlimited vacation means people can take unpaid time. At least at the biglaw firms I've seen with unlimited vacation the time off is not unpaid. Could be different at smaller firms.

[rpupkin]

Most New York lockstep firms provide four weeks paid vacation to a first year associate, which then increases to five weeks and six weeks as you become more senior. (This was the policy at the V5 I spent one summer at).

However, there are some firms that have open vacation policies where you can take as many days of vacation wherever you want. (This was the policy at a non-NY firm I spent a different summer at). As a practical matter, what this really seems to mean is that these firms don't offer any paid vacation; you just don't have a limit on the number of days without pay you can take. Isn't this just effectively taking a four week pay cut, which means the firm pays below market? Is there a catch anywhere, or are these policies just a shit deal?

I have never heard of such a policy in big law. "Unlimited vacation" generally means that you can take as many paid vacation days as you'd like. As Tiago notes, it could be different at small regional firms.

By the way, do not choose a firm based on a vacation policy. It has nothing to do with how much time off you will actually get.

[rpupkin]

By all accounts the unlimited vacation thing is worse than just getting your straight four weeks. The killer is that you don't get paid for accrued vacation when you leave, so you leave a lot of money on the table if you don't take it all. But if you are able to normally take 4 (or more) weeks every year under an unlimited policy then you're doing just fine.

Are there big law firms that still let you stockpile unused vacation time so that you can get a big pay out when you leave? I thought that almost all firms had moved to a "use it or lose it" policy.

[Tiago Splitter]

By all accounts the unlimited vacation thing is worse than just getting your straight four weeks. The killer is that you don't get paid for accrued vacation when you leave, so you leave a lot of money on the table if you don't take it all. But if you are able to normally take 4 (or more) weeks every year under an unlimited policy then you're doing just fine.

Are there big law firms that still let you stockpile unused vacation time so that you can get a big pay out when you leave? I thought that almost all firms had moved to a "use it or lose it" policy.

The one that popped into mind went from 4 weeks to unlimited a few years ago and the associates I interviewed with were not happy about it, mainly because they lost about on the ability to collect it when they left. Apparently it also sucked because they felt more pressure not to take it under the unlimited system.

But it's a good question and now that I think about it I don't even know my own firm's policy.

[dabigchina]

I thought that almost all firms had moved to a "use it or lose it" policy.

depends on the state but i'm pretty sure "use it or lose it" is illegal in some jurisdictions (CA is the biggest one i know of)

[rpupkin]

I thought that almost all firms had moved to a "use it or lose it" policy.

depends on the state but i'm pretty sure "use it or lose it" is illegal in some jurisdictions (CA is the biggest one i know of)

Cite? I work in California, and many employers have some form of a "use it or lose it" vacation policy, at least for professionals. Is it possible that the law you're thinking of applies only to certain classes of employees?

[dabigchina]

I thought that almost all firms had moved to a "use it or lose it" policy.

depends on the state but i'm pretty sure "use it or lose it" is illegal in some jurisdictions (CA is the biggest one i know of)

Cite? I work in California, and many employers have some form of a "use it or lose it" vacation policy, at least for professionals. Is it possible that the law you're thinking of applies only to certain classes of employees?

http://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/faq_vacation.htm

4.

Q.

My employer's vacation policy provides that if I do not use all of my annual vacation entitlement by the end of the year, that I lose the unused balance. Is this legal?


A.

No, such a provision is not legal. In California, vacation pay is another form of wages which vests as it is earned (in this context, "vests" means you are invested or endowed with rights in the wages). Accordingly, a policy that provides for the forfeiture of vacation pay that is not used by a specified date ("use it or lose it") is an illegal policy under California law and will not be recognized by the Labor Commissioner.

Ironically it's rules like this that caused companies to go to the "take as much time off as you want" approach to vacation so they can screw you out of them when you leave.

[rpupkin]

I thought that almost all firms had moved to a "use it or lose it" policy.

depends on the state but i'm pretty sure "use it or lose it" is illegal in some jurisdictions (CA is the biggest one i know of)

Cite? I work in California, and many employers have some form of a "use it or lose it" vacation policy, at least for professionals. Is it possible that the law you're thinking of applies only to certain classes of employees?

http://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/faq_vacation.htm

You're right and I'm wrong. Here is the statute, in case anyone cares:

http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces ... nNum=227.3

[A. Nony Mouse]

Apparently California is basically the only place that does this, though. The feds have a "use it or lose it" policy (but you get longer than a year). I wonder if federal employees in California aren't subject to it?

[dixiecupdrinking]

In any event -- the reason people don't like "unlimited" vacation is emphatically not because it's unpaid. It is definitely paid. But when you are entitled to a certain number of days it's clearer how much time you are expected to take. "Unlimited" just means you're supposed to police yourself about what's reasonable. Inevitably that is worse for associates.

[Anonymous User]

At my firm, it is unlimited time off. In my first year, I took a one week vacation, plus a couple of days here and there. Every time I took time off, I always felt guilty. Then in March of my second year, I took one day off and after that was told that I took too much time off. Since the firm was burning me in multiple other ways, I decided to say screw it and now take more time off without guilt. I will add though that I am done with the firm and just biding my time until I launch my own firm. So I could care less how it impacts my career at this firm. For the record, I'm at a small firm (that repeatedly acts like a big firm) in a small market.

[baal hadad]

I got v sick for 2 weeks this year (couldn't come in) plus a couple wks of taking half or 3/4 days to recover

No vacation for me this yr

[dixiecupdrinking]

At my firm, it is unlimited time off. In my first year, I took a one week vacation, plus a couple of days here and there. Every time I took time off, I always felt guilty. Then in March of my second year, I took one day off and after that was told that I took too much time off. Since the firm was burning me in multiple other ways, I decided to say screw it and now take more time off without guilt. I will add though that I am done with the firm and just biding my time until I launch my own firm. So I could care less how it impacts my career at this firm. For the record, I'm at a small firm (that repeatedly acts like a big firm) in a small market.

lol fucking lawyers

[SplitMyPants]

Total noob question, but how does vacation work in biglaw? Wouldn't you still have to hit hours anyways, and so vacation is really just choosing to bill those hours on another day?

[dixiecupdrinking]

Total noob question, but how does vacation work in biglaw? Wouldn't you still have to hit hours anyways, and so vacation is really just choosing to bill those hours on another day?

Yeah sort of. More to the point, even if you want to choose when to bill those hours, you often don't get to make that decision yourself. That's the thinking behind unlimited vacation time. No matter what, you are only really able to take vacations when client demands allow it, so let people decide for themselves how much time they can take.

In reality, it's a more delicate negotiation where people will be happy to cover for you if they think your vacation is important or well deserved. If not, they will probably be passive aggressive about it. If it's really bad they'll tell you to cancel your vacation but typically they'll just try to guilt you into it and then bring it up obliquely in your review in a year.

[Anonymous User]

Two main lessons I learned from my cohort starting at big firms:

1) There are limited sources of information and the real world facts are going to play a much larger role than any policy difference. Trying to figure it out as a 2L is a fool's errand.

2) If you have the balls to take control and make your own decisions within a band of reasonableness, you can improve the situation on your own.

[patentlitigatrix]

I recent left a firm that had "unlimited" vacation. Because we were slow, I felt like I could never actually take vacation and miss out on billable opportunities. And it absolutely SUCKED to not get vacation payout.

My prior/current firm does the four week thing, but no one holds you to that. You can take additional "personal" time that is still paid, as long as you make your hours. One year I took 7 weeks.