Covington v. Sidley v. Gibson v. Wilmer (all DC) Forum

[Anonymous User]

Covington v. Sidley v. Gibson v. Wilmer (all DC)

What do you guys think? At this point, I'm completely unsure what I want to do, besides that fact that I want/need to be in DC because lots of family in the area. Litigation, Transactional, and Regulatory are all up for consideration – hopefully the summer will shed some light on that. Liked everyone I met at all 4 places, so thought I would reach out to the TLS community for some guidance.

[Anonymous User]

Covington>Wilmer>>Gibson>>>Sidley

That's just the baseline for prestige in DC (aka the Vault DC ranking). Since you don't know what you want to do, that's probably as good as any place to start. I don't think there would be any reason to choose Sidley above the other three in this situation, but you could probably make an argument for any one of the rest.

[Anonymous User]

I should have also mentioned I still have an open offer from Hogan as well (though I don't think that changes anything). Anyone else have thoughts?

[BlackAndOrange84]

It seems like the common wisdom I've seen around here is that at least as between Covington and Wilmer, it's a real crapshoot—you should go with the firm that is a better fit or has people you clicked with better. Maybe with Gibson too, though I don't know how strong (and which are strong) their regulatory practices are or if they do much transactional work out of the DC office. If you wanted to push hard for appellate lit or lit more generally, there's a strong case to be made to go to Gibson, but I don't know what else they have going in that office.

[jbagelboy]

Covington>Wilmer>>Gibson>>>Sidley

That's just the baseline for prestige in DC (aka the Vault DC ranking). Since you don't know what you want to do, that's probably as good as any place to start. I don't think there would be any reason to choose Sidley above the other three in this situation, but you could probably make an argument for any one of the rest.

I don't think one can say with any certitude that one of Covington or Wilmer or Gibson are "better" than the others. They are all incredible elite DC offices that attract top tier talent each year. If you have strong feelings about one practice area or political division, there's a real choice to be made, but otherwise it's just where you'd fit in.

I also know several people who chose Sidley over Covington in DC, but that's admittedly a more specific practice selection and I wouldn't recommend it for general DC interest.

Congrats on great options.

[Anonymous User]

Sidley is only in the conversation if you are interested in appellate. If you are, I would actually recommend them.

[Anonymous User]

I can't speak to the others, but Covington allows you to kind of try a bunch of different practice areas and have no defined practice groups, so you can try different things before you make your final decision. I loved it there, but I'm biased. All are great options though, so you can't really go wrong.

[BlackAndOrange84]

I can't speak to the others, but Covington allows you to kind of try a bunch of different practice areas and have no defined practice groups, so you can try different things before you make your final decision. I loved it there, but I'm biased. All are great options though, so you can't really go wrong.

To piggy back on this point, Covington allows junior associates to split between two practice groups, and it seems to be possible to move between groups at least for the first couple of years. You're unlikely to get a real picture of what the practice in a particular group is like over the summer, and, given that you're undecided about what practice area, the chance to split or a rotation program can be attractive. In any case, it's something to take into account. I can't speak to whether Wilmer, Gibson, or Sidley offer similar possibilities.

[Anonymous User]

I should have also mentioned I still have an open offer from Hogan as well (though I don't think that changes anything). Anyone else have thoughts?

I'd put Hogan above Sidley, personally, and definitely for your broad range of interests. The other three are more elite in the general sense, but Hogan probably trumps Gibson for regulatory practices, which is the cornerstone of DC work in the first place.

[Anonymous User]

Covington is the easy choice here.

[Anonymous User]

I know Gibson no offered at least 2 people this summer so would prob steer clear. Granted these people will likely be fine because they have great grades.

[Anonymous User]

Covington no-offered 1 or 2 people as well (larger class size than Gibson though). Was a summer - they had it coming as much as one can. You have to try to no-offered. I assume Gibson is the same.

[Anonymous User]

iirc, Gibson DC no offers a couple each summer. But you really have to be among the lowest performers in the entire class, so I wouldn't put much weight on that in your decision.

[Anonymous User]

Covington is the easy choice here.

Covington is notoriously brutal in some areas, e.g. litigation. It also no-offers summers every year, which Wilmer DC didn't (at least last year). On the other hand, Wilmer is on shakier financial grounds. I chose Wilmer over Cov, and a few other people I know also did. It's far from an easy call to make.
That being said I would agree the other two are, all things equal, a step below.

[middlemarch]

Anonymous User wrote: On the other hand, Wilmer is on shakier financial grounds.

Why do you think Wilmer is on shakier financial grounds?

[Elston Gunn]

Covington is the easy choice here.

Covington is notoriously brutal in some areas, e.g. litigation. It also no-offers summers every year, which Wilmer DC didn't (at least last year). On the other hand, Wilmer is on shakier financial grounds. I chose Wilmer over Cov, and a few other people I know also did. It's far from an easy call to make.
That being said I would agree the other two are, all things equal, a step below.

Pretty much agree with this. I actually might say Gibson if you knew you wanted to do lit, but with regulatory still on the table just pick whichever you liked better between Covington and Wilmer. If you can't decide, pick Covington because it seems to be pretty clearly in the stronger financial shape at the moment.

[Elston Gunn]

Anonymous User wrote: On the other hand, Wilmer is on shakier financial grounds.

Why do you think Wilmer is on shakier financial grounds?

Had some layoffs in other offices two years ago and they have a TTT compensation structure after second year--base is well below market, and you're supposed to make it up with a larger, merit-based bonus at end of year, but I doubt the average person is making market overall, and you have to wait for your money regardless. I doubt they'll have any major problems in D.C. though, and this stuff is impossible to predict.

Cov also just seems to be in very strong shape. They've got to have something like 50% more summers than the next largest class in DC at this point, and they've had by far the most post-clerkship hiring of late. Though I guess you could see that as getting too big too fast or something. They also have TTT bonuses in DC, but I think that's just the price you pay at any of these places that rely heavily on less-profitable reg work.

[Anonymous User]

Anonymous User wrote: On the other hand, Wilmer is on shakier financial grounds.

Why do you think Wilmer is on shakier financial grounds?

Had some layoffs in other offices two years ago and they have a TTT compensation structure after second year--base is well below market, and you're supposed to make it up with a larger, merit-based bonus at end of year, but I doubt the average person is making market overall, and you have to wait for your money regardless. I doubt they'll have any major problems in D.C. though, and this stuff is impossible to predict.

Cov also just seems to be in very strong shape. They've got to have something like 150% more summers than the next largest class in DC at this point, and they've had by far the most post-clerkship hiring of late. Though I guess you could see that as getting too big too fast or something. They also have TTT bonuses in DC, but I think that's just the price you pay at any of these places that rely heavily on less-profitable reg work.

Where do you see Hogan slotting in? Presumably below Cov and Wilmer, at least. Any particular strengths over the others?

[Elston Gunn]

Where do you see Hogan slotting in? Presumably below Cov and Wilmer, at least. Any particular strengths over the others?

Hogan is a very good firm. I could definitely see going their over Wilmer if you were seriously considering corporate, or even Covington if you just loved the place. But yeah, a clear notch below those two in general. Agree with the poster above who said he'd rather go to Hogan than Sidley, though they're very close. I'd rather Gibson if I wanted lit, and Hogan if I had different or more undefined interests.

Except for them being probably a top 2 corporate shop in DC (with Cov), I don't have any insight into what the particular strengths are beyond what you'll find on Chambers and Partners. I know they have a couple regulatory practice areas that are noticeably stronger than Cov/Wilmer in that area, but I wouldn't make a call based on that unless I was really confident I was going to be in a particular area.

[jbagelboy]

Wilmer might not be as profitable or sizable as Covington in DC, but it's hardly on "shaky" financial grounds. This is the kind of rumor that starts floating around on TLS and becomes erroneous dogma.

Why is A&P never included in these conversations? They have some of the coolest work in the capital, and they're as well regarded as Wilmer or Gibson in many areas, but I don't see them on these threads as much.

[dood]

convington and gibson are intense, but thats not a bad thing. i would choose on the those two.

[Anonymous User]

Wilmer might not be as profitable or sizable as Covington in DC, but it's hardly on "shaky" financial grounds. This is the kind of rumor that starts floating around on TLS and becomes erroneous dogma.

Why is A&P never included in these conversations? They have some of the coolest work in the capital, and they're as well regarded as Wilmer or Gibson in many areas, but I don't see them on these threads as much.

Yeah, no idea why A&P never come up. I'm at GULC now and headed to Hogan; I know folks going to Sidley, Gibson, Wilmer, Covington, and even Williams and Connolly, but I haven't heard about a single person going to A&P, or even really interviewing there. I know they were out of reach for me grade-wise, but still, it's like they're just somehow aloof.

[Anonymous User]

Wilmer dc here. Wilmer is way more profitable than Covington. 1.15 vs 915k on rpl and 1.6 vs. 1.3 on ppp in 2014.

[Elston Gunn]

Wilmer dc here. Wilmer is way more profitable than Covington. 1.15 vs 915k on rpl and 1.6 vs. 1.3 on ppp in 2014.

Which is mostly a function of Covington having a bunch more regulatory lawyers than Wilmer, which just isn't as profitable a practice area. I think it's stability rather than profitability that's at issue. Though I agree it's mostly a red herring, and no one should be worried about going to Wilmer DC for financial reasons.

Why is A&P never included in these conversations? They have some of the coolest work in the capital, and they're as well regarded as Wilmer or Gibson in many areas, but I don't see them on these threads as much.

Honestly, I think part of it is that A&P just doesn't give that many offers, especially compared to Covington. But yeah, I know plenty of people who took A&P over Covington, Wilmer, Jenner etc., and I honestly probably would have too at the time if I'd managed to snag an offer.

[Anonymous User]

I think this is pretty straightforward: Covington for regulatory and Wilmer for litigation.