Practical tips for survival in biglaw Forum

[ronaldo09]

Bumping this for some more tips.

In general?

[HBfan1]

This guy suggests being middle class and white, probably smart

http://www.bcgsearch.com/article/900045 ... -Law-Firm/

I think this dude's stuff has been posted here before. If I recall correctly he's a "clause 9.2 and the way it works with 7.6"-level sociopath.

His posts are brutally honest and a must-read for anyone entering biglaw. There's not much else, because few lawyers are willing to be honest. The posts on TLS are moronic and clueless fantasy from law students. For example, they would have you believe that because you "get along" with a few people during interviews, you have now entered into something as strong as a binding contract with them guaranteeing that they will treat you well and ensure that you will not be laid off. Same thing for a firm's "culture," which they have no clue about but like to imagine. To give you a sense of how stupid the people posting here are -- Harrison Barnes literally owns TLS. He owns the site they're posting on, yet this poster just called him a "sociopath" for writing honest posts. TLS is the biggest amalgam of frightening idiocy you will find on the internet. Good news is you get exactly what you deserve for listening to the bullshit on here.

[Anonymous User]

I guess this is related to surviving biglaw at least indirectly. Is it wise to rent a condo one or two blocks away from Grove St PATH station in NJ and do a 30-40 minute (google says its 33 minutes, but is it really?) commute to Midtown East 5-7 times a week? I could cut this commute down to 15-20 minutes if I rent a condo near the 4 5 in UES (forget Astoria sunnyside etc.) but is this alternative really worth spending an extra 7-9k a year (considering NYC tax, COL, increased fed tax, PATH card, could be more depending on my SO income)? I think its aprox 110 hours more at most in a car or train a year vs commuting from UES. Thanks in advance.

Do not do this unless you have a very compelling (more than just avoiding city tax / saving money) reason to live in Jersey. You are talking about a 45 minute commute in every morning (worse if the PATH is fucked up, which it often is). It's also a two-step commute, because you'll take the PATH to Penn Station, then you'll have to change trains at least once more, or you'll have to walk across and uptown to get to your firm (assuming your Midtown East firm is in the 40s or 50s on the east side, as most of them are). Driving to Jersey is often not the fastest option because you are reliant on two tunnels and if they are slow, your commute will take ages - so your ride back in a car at 2am will also take 45 minutes.

If you have no other location concerns, just rent a place in midtown east - it's not really more expensive than anywhere else in Manhattan on the 45 and you can walk to work.

[objctnyrhnr]

I’m going to take the minority approach and say live within several blocks of work, no matter what it costs. People talk about trying to get out as fast as possible, but not commuting will cause you to enjoy it way more and, perhaps, not want to get out as quickly as possible.

Although I obviously understand the rationale, I am surprised that my view is not shared by more people on this thread. Biglaw market is lots of money per year. You can afford whatever you want in rent. IMHO, this is the easiest way to turn dollars into happiness/day-to-day enjoyability.

Will you save less? Absolutely. Will it be worth it in the end because 1) you might stay in biglaw for longer and 2) you won’t hate your life when it gets busy? absolutely, in my opinion.

Maybe it goes to the fundamentally different philosophies of people starting in biglaw—maximize cash on low living standards and get out ASAP, or treat it like an actual career stop and not think about your exit as soon as you enter (like...I dunno...a normal person starting a normal job). Personally, I don’t see why anybody would want to go into any job that they anticipate absolutely despising and wanting to leave. Seems like almost a self-fulfilling prophesy.

Of course, very reasonable minds will differ on this issue.

[worklifewhat]

I’m going to take the minority approach and say live within several blocks of work, no matter what it costs. People talk about trying to get out as fast as possible, but not commuting will cause you to enjoy it way more and, perhaps, not want to get out as quickly as possible.

Although I obviously understand the rationale, I am surprised that my view is not shared by more people on this thread. Biglaw market is lots of money per year. You can afford whatever you want in rent. IMHO, this is the easiest way to turn dollars into happiness/day-to-day enjoyability.

Will you save less? Absolutely. Will it be worth it in the end because 1) you might stay in biglaw for longer and 2) you won’t hate your life when it gets busy? absolutely, in my opinion.

Maybe it goes to the fundamentally different philosophies of people starting in biglaw—maximize cash on low living standards and get out ASAP, or treat it like an actual career stop and not think about your exit as soon as you enter (like...I dunno...a normal person starting a normal job). Personally, I don’t see why anybody would want to go into any job that they anticipate absolutely despising and wanting to leave. Seems like almost a self-fulfilling prophesy.

Of course, very reasonable minds will differ on this issue.

I 100% agree with this perspective. I lived within walking distance of work my first few years and now live far away and the commute is a huge part of the reason I’m looling to leave. I have kids and commuting is time you’ll never get back. Saving a couple hundred bucks isn’t worth the loss of time IMO.

[Anonymous User]

I’m going to take the minority approach and say live within several blocks of work, no matter what it costs. People talk about trying to get out as fast as possible, but not commuting will cause you to enjoy it way more and, perhaps, not want to get out as quickly as possible.

Although I obviously understand the rationale, I am surprised that my view is not shared by more people on this thread. Biglaw market is lots of money per year. You can afford whatever you want in rent. IMHO, this is the easiest way to turn dollars into happiness/day-to-day enjoyability.

Will you save less? Absolutely. Will it be worth it in the end because 1) you might stay in biglaw for longer and 2) you won’t hate your life when it gets busy? absolutely, in my opinion.

Maybe it goes to the fundamentally different philosophies of people starting in biglaw—maximize cash on low living standards and get out ASAP, or treat it like an actual career stop and not think about your exit as soon as you enter (like...I dunno...a normal person starting a normal job). Personally, I don’t see why anybody would want to go into any job that they anticipate absolutely despising and wanting to leave. Seems like almost a self-fulfilling prophesy.

Of course, very reasonable minds will differ on this issue.

I 100% agree with this perspective. I lived within walking distance of work my first few years and now live far away and the commute is a huge part of the reason I’m looling to leave. I have kids and commuting is time you’ll never get back. Saving a couple hundred bucks isn’t worth the loss of time IMO.

Completely agree with this. First year biglaw here and it has been a life saver living a couple blocks from work.

[Anonymous User]

Practice selective incompetence as a junior. If you get assigned a project from a slave driving ogre, don't do a bang up job. Do enough not to make the partner rant and rave, but not so much the partner wants to work with you again. If you get assigned a project from someone good to work with, pour your heart and soul into it. Be careful and be sensitive to firm politics when you do this.

If you end up the go-to for a difficult partner, your life is going to be miserable. If you end up working for good partners, biglaw is quite tolerable.

As a biglaw litigation senior associate, I have learned that the key in biglaw litigation is to do a kickass job for the first senior-associate/partner you end up working for, so that that person will then take you from job to job. Believe it or not, it may be safer to work for someone with a "slave-driving" reputation rather than going from partner to partner. The goal is to minimize the number of reviews you get from partners. The higher the number of partners, the higher the chances are that they will have something negative to say about you. So the politically smart thing to do is to try to work with as few partners as possible, and you can only do this by becoming one partner's slave, and constantly asking work from that partner. Of course, it makes it easier if that partner is a decent person. As a junior associate, the equivalent would be a senior associate that takes you from project to project.

I learned this the hard way. At my firm, think Cravath type shop, all sixth year associates go up for partnership review at the beginning of their 6th year. It is the first time where all partners sit in one room and discuss each associate individually. The dynamic is like America's Next Top Model, where everyone who has worked with you is encouraged to say something mean about your work (with the goal of eliminating someone). If you only worked with 1/2 partner the whole time because you were that partner's slave, chances are that no partner will have anything negative to say about you (even if they want to), and those 1/2 partners you have worked with consistently will be more inclined to sing your praises. That is how people make partner.

[Anonymous User]

I learned this the hard way. At my firm, think Cravath type shop, all sixth year associates go up for partnership review at the beginning of their 6th year. It is the first time where all partners sit in one room and discuss each associate individually. The dynamic is like America's Next Top Model, where everyone who has worked with you is encouraged to say something mean about your work (with the goal of eliminating someone). If you only worked with 1/2 partner the whole time because you were that partner's slave, chances are that no partner will have anything negative to say about you (even if they want to), and those 1/2 partners you have worked with consistently will be more inclined to sing your praises. That is how people make partner.

At places I've worked, this would not be a good strategy, because associates need fairly broad partner support to make partner. I agree that you don't want negative reviews, and that you definitely do want partners who like you a lot and will advocate for you, but unless your partner advocate is very important, I think 1 or 2 partners is not going to be enough.

[RaceJudicata]

I’m going to take the minority approach and say live within several blocks of work, no matter what it costs. People talk about trying to get out as fast as possible, but not commuting will cause you to enjoy it way more and, perhaps, not want to get out as quickly as possible.

Although I obviously understand the rationale, I am surprised that my view is not shared by more people on this thread. Biglaw market is lots of money per year. You can afford whatever you want in rent. IMHO, this is the easiest way to turn dollars into happiness/day-to-day enjoyability.

Will you save less? Absolutely. Will it be worth it in the end because 1) you might stay in biglaw for longer and 2) you won’t hate your life when it gets busy? absolutely, in my opinion.

Maybe it goes to the fundamentally different philosophies of people starting in biglaw—maximize cash on low living standards and get out ASAP, or treat it like an actual career stop and not think about your exit as soon as you enter (like...I dunno...a normal person starting a normal job). Personally, I don’t see why anybody would want to go into any job that they anticipate absolutely despising and wanting to leave. Seems like almost a self-fulfilling prophesy.

Of course, very reasonable minds will differ on this issue.

I 100% agree with this perspective. I lived within walking distance of work my first few years and now live far away and the commute is a huge part of the reason I’m looling to leave. I have kids and commuting is time you’ll never get back. Saving a couple hundred bucks isn’t worth the loss of time IMO.

Completely agree with this. First year biglaw here and it has been a life saver living a couple blocks from work.

Totally get either side of live close vs not... but for me (just finished first year), my commute was my savior. About 30 min train each way. This gives me time to (1) jot down my list for the day so I don’t feel overwhelmed in the morning, and more importantly, (2) totally decompress and unwind in the evening.

[Hutz_and_Goodman]

I read on the subway in to work which I enjoy. Anecdotally it seems that people who live very close to work don’t love it because they can never really “get away from” work and when something comes up that needs someone in the office the person who lives nearby is asked to do it.

[goldenflash19]

I’m trying to learn a foreign language and use my subway time to do language learning apps and/or read and watch the news in that language. I genuinely enjoy my commute time and actually look forward to it. If I lived within walking distance to the office, I probably wouldn’t be making as much progress.

[SplitMyPants]

I read on the subway in to work which I enjoy. Anecdotally it seems that people who live very close to work don’t love it because they can never really “get away from” work and when something comes up that needs someone in the office the person who lives nearby is asked to do it.

first rule of living close is to not talk about living so close

[Anonymous User]

I wanted to revive this as a first year who just started (anon for obvious reasons). What should junior litigation associates do to both (1) not get fired and (2) not jump off the roof?

[mvp99]

On your first day schedule conference call with the partner to discuss strategy re discovery.

[Anonymous User]

I read on the subway in to work which I enjoy. Anecdotally it seems that people who live very close to work don’t love it because they can never really “get away from” work and when something comes up that needs someone in the office the person who lives nearby is asked to do it.

first rule of living close is to not talk about living so close

I worked closely with a guy for 4 years who lived across the street from the office; I think he could see into his office window from his apartment window and vice versa. I didn't know that he lived there until my last two weeks.

[Anonymous User]

I wanted to revive this as a first year who just started (anon for obvious reasons). What should junior litigation associates do to both (1) not get fired and (2) not jump off the roof?

Re: (1) - don't fuck up. You don't have to be perfect to stick around in lit for a long time, but if you make a major mistake (miss a deadline, miss an important issue, badmouth a partner/client) then you might get shown the door. I would also put being difficult to work with in this category. I know someone who thought (s)he as a first year was above anything shy of a SCOTUS brief, and (s)he was shown the door very quickly.

As a corollary, if you do fuck up, say something immediately. I'm an in-demand senior with glowing reviews, but I've fucked a lot of shit up. Each time, I quickly identified a work-around (and how to message to the client) and informed everyone that needed to know about my mistake. None of those have stuck with me.

Re: (2) - learn how to say no. You're the only person who can manage your own hours, which means that you're the only one who is going to see when a new matter/assignment is going to put you under water. Most everything is bearable in reasonable amounts and this job is no exception.

The caveat here is that burnout isn't always caused by just high hours. While most people I know who rage quit were getting buried, I do know some people who just hated the work and burned out just hitting ~2k hours. If you think you might fall into that category (e.g., if gobs of cash won't make an unfulfilling job worth it), then this job is going to be much harder for you. I'd recommend trying to find something about litigation that you like (whether it's one particular partner/client/issue/task) and try your ass off to do as much of that as possible.

You should also find someone you trust to confide in at work about work. No matter how much you like the job, there will always be shitty parts (a bad partner, rude opposing counsel, a dog of a case, incompetent juniors, a picky client, etc.). You need someone to commiserate with who will understand. I have 3 people on my short list (one my year, two more senior) that I go to when the job seems unbearably awful. Talking to them and hearing that either they've had the same experience or that the job just sucks sometimes reminds me that if they can handle it, so can I. Hating the job AND feeling isolated is a recipe for attrition.

[temp69420]

I wanted to revive this as a first year who just started (anon for obvious reasons). What should junior litigation associates do to both (1) not get fired and (2) not jump off the roof?

Re: (1) - don't fuck up. You don't have to be perfect to stick around in lit for a long time, but if you make a major mistake (miss a deadline, miss an important issue, badmouth a partner/client) then you might get shown the door.

Corollary to this: always be covering your ass. If a senior or partner or client asks you to do something stupid that is going to blow up, get it in writing that they told you to do it (i.e. send them an email saying exactly what you plan to do). If you need a junior to do something important on a deadline, make sure it's in an email, not just a phone call. You can even write emails to yourself documenting things. You never know when you're going to need a paper trail.

[Anonymous User]

As a senior associate, my tip for juniors is don't play the hours comparison game. It's exactly what people used to do in law school re: how many hours you studied and what your grades are and the effect is the same as it was in law school -- it makes you insufferable in a conversation and will not help you. Ask around when you start about what a typical month should look like hours-wise, but after that, don't make it a topic of conversation. From time to time it can be important to get a sense of how your hours stack up, but then just ask someone in your group whom you like and are friendly with and frame it as just wanting to do a little gut check on whether your hours are reasonable. Ask the question then immediately move on.
ETA: Asking on TLS or friends in different firms or groups within the same firm is not helpful because all that matters is the internal comparison.

[Anonymous User]

As a senior associate, my tip for juniors is don't play the hours comparison game. It's exactly what people used to do in law school re: how many hours you studied and what your grades are and the effect is the same as it was in law school -- it makes you insufferable in a conversation and will not help you. Ask around when you start about what a typical month should look like hours-wise, but after that, don't make it a topic of conversation. From time to time it can be important to get a sense of how your hours stack up, but then just ask someone in your group whom you like and are friendly with and frame it as just wanting to do a little gut check on whether your hours are reasonable. Ask the question then immediately move on.
ETA: Asking on TLS or friends in different firms or groups within the same firm is not helpful because all that matters is the internal comparison.

Or just figure out how on the system to check everyone's hours, it's hilarious and quite useful.

[thisismytlsuername]

I wanted to revive this as a first year who just started (anon for obvious reasons). What should junior litigation associates do to both (1) not get fired and (2) not jump off the roof?

Ah yes, thank god you're anonymous, you're the only first year litigation associate who just started in all of biglaw across the country.

[Sackboy]

As a senior associate, my tip for juniors is don't play the hours comparison game. It's exactly what people used to do in law school re: how many hours you studied and what your grades are and the effect is the same as it was in law school -- it makes you insufferable in a conversation and will not help you. Ask around when you start about what a typical month should look like hours-wise, but after that, don't make it a topic of conversation. From time to time it can be important to get a sense of how your hours stack up, but then just ask someone in your group whom you like and are friendly with and frame it as just wanting to do a little gut check on whether your hours are reasonable. Ask the question then immediately move on.
ETA: Asking on TLS or friends in different firms or groups within the same firm is not helpful because all that matters is the internal comparison.

Or just figure out how on the system to check everyone's hours, it's hilarious and quite useful.

Some places will fire you for doing this. Not a good idea.

[Anonymous User]

As a senior associate, my tip for juniors is don't play the hours comparison game. It's exactly what people used to do in law school re: how many hours you studied and what your grades are and the effect is the same as it was in law school -- it makes you insufferable in a conversation and will not help you. Ask around when you start about what a typical month should look like hours-wise, but after that, don't make it a topic of conversation. From time to time it can be important to get a sense of how your hours stack up, but then just ask someone in your group whom you like and are friendly with and frame it as just wanting to do a little gut check on whether your hours are reasonable. Ask the question then immediately move on.
ETA: Asking on TLS or friends in different firms or groups within the same firm is not helpful because all that matters is the internal comparison.

Or just figure out how on the system to check everyone's hours, it's hilarious and quite useful.

Some places will fire you for doing this. Not a good idea.

Fair I guess it depends on the mechanism, at my firm it is in a program that we have access to and is not restricted in any way. Obviously don't hack your systems or look at something you don't have access to.

[DildaMan]

I wanted to revive this as a first year who just started (anon for obvious reasons). What should junior litigation associates do to both (1) not get fired and (2) not jump off the roof?

Re: (1) - don't fuck up. You don't have to be perfect to stick around in lit for a long time, but if you make a major mistake (miss a deadline, miss an important issue, badmouth a partner/client) then you might get shown the door. I would also put being difficult to work with in this category. I know someone who thought (s)he as a first year was above anything shy of a SCOTUS brief, and (s)he was shown the door very quickly.

As a corollary, if you do fuck up, say something immediately. I'm an in-demand senior with glowing reviews, but I've fucked a lot of shit up. Each time, I quickly identified a work-around (and how to message to the client) and informed everyone that needed to know about my mistake. None of those have stuck with me.

Re: (2) - learn how to say no. You're the only person who can manage your own hours, which means that you're the only one who is going to see when a new matter/assignment is going to put you under water. Most everything is bearable in reasonable amounts and this job is no exception.

The caveat here is that burnout isn't always caused by just high hours. While most people I know who rage quit were getting buried, I do know some people who just hated the work and burned out just hitting ~2k hours. If you think you might fall into that category (e.g., if gobs of cash won't make an unfulfilling job worth it), then this job is going to be much harder for you. I'd recommend trying to find something about litigation that you like (whether it's one particular partner/client/issue/task) and try your ass off to do as much of that as possible.

You should also find someone you trust to confide in at work about work. No matter how much you like the job, there will always be shitty parts (a bad partner, rude opposing counsel, a dog of a case, incompetent juniors, a picky client, etc.). You need someone to commiserate with who will understand. I have 3 people on my short list (one my year, two more senior) that I go to when the job seems unbearably awful. Talking to them and hearing that either they've had the same experience or that the job just sucks sometimes reminds me that if they can handle it, so can I. Hating the job AND feeling isolated is a recipe for attrition.

The only unforgivable mistake is missing a court deadline. It is entirely preventable and demonstrates a complete lack of attention to detail and/or basic organizational skills. I've seen associates come back from other stupid/careless mistakes: forgetting page limits, filing meritless and/or procedurally deficient motions that are summarily denied, acting out at depositions and being admonished by judges, trying to enforce sloppy subpoenas that result in awards of costs against the client, and other various assortments of sloppy mistakes. As the poster above noted, nearly everything is fixable as long as you let your superiors know in a timely manner and/or with proper damage control.

As for sanity, keep a hobby and take at least one week a year of vacation. No one notices if you worked all 52 weeks in a year as long as your bottom line for billable hours is high. Keep a consistent exercise regimen and block off at least a half hour a day to wind down before you sleep. Figure out what you like to do in litigation and try to do the things that interest you. Find good mentors and stick with them. Don't be afraid to try another firm if the culture doesn't fit or to go in-house. From my experience, it's pretty much a revolving door.

[Anonymous User]

Learn to say no.

lease a tesla so you won't hate your life driving downtown everyday.