Lit-Master: DPW/STB NY vs. Latham/Hogan DC Forum

[Anonymous User]

Hi friends,

I would like your advice/thoughts/suggestions about the decision I'm currently making.

Goals:
- go to the best possible place for Litigation
- go to the most prestigious firm/gives me great exit options
- go to firm that has great connections to DOJ/AUSA positions
- wind up in DC long-term

My options is NY are more prestigious than my options in DC. By all accounts, DPW/STB are on another level than Latham/Hogan. From what I hear, it would be commonplace to transfer to DC or to get an AUSA position in DC from either of the places in NY. I have ties to NY. I think it would be a lot of fun to be an associate in NY for a few years. I think DC is a better long-term option to settle down in, and want to have most of my career there. I have some ties to DC as well.

What are your thoughts, oh law firm sages?

[Anonymous User]

DPW has the best AUSA/DOJ exits for junior and midlevel attorneys. There's also a pretty big clerkship culture there in lit, which is something to keep in mind (it's not unusual for 1st or 2nd years to leave to go clerk, then come back, then go AUSA).

Simpson has a roughly equally well regarded litigation practice, but without the same renown as a revolving door with justice. Associates remain in the private sector at a slightly higher rate.

Hogan DC is a great office with strong litigators, but in different areas than the new york firms and its not at the clear "top" of its market. It won't have the same strengths in securities and white collar or general lit. Conversely, it does better regulatory work, has an international trade practice, and does a lot of data security. My concern here is that Hogan isn't even Band 1 in DC for litigation or most lit subareas, whereas DPW and Simpson are among the most respected in new york. I know someone who went to Hogan DC over DPW/Cravath/Skadden Ny, but that's because they really wanted to be in DC. You don't seem to have that preference.

I wouldn't consider Latham DC with these choices.

[smaug]

DPW has the best AUSA/DOJ exits for junior and midlevel attorneys. There's also a pretty big clerkship culture there in lit, which is something to keep in mind (it's not unusual for 1st or 2nd years to leave to go clerk, then come back, then go AUSA).

Are you the same person who was pushing this nonsense in another thread?

DPW is a great firm for lit, arguably stronger than STB. Don't use BS to try to justify it, stick with real things.

OP: I think it'll depend largely on what type of lit you want to do. Different firms (read: different partners) are going to be strong in different areas.

Given that you want to end up in DC long-term, I'd probably take Hogan. I don't think you're sacrificing much in terms of quality of work, and I have a feeling it'll be a smoother transition from there to someplace else in DC than DPW or STB would be.

[Anonymous User]

Anonymous User wrote:
DPW has the best AUSA/DOJ exits for junior and midlevel attorneys. There's also a pretty big clerkship culture there in lit, which is something to keep in mind (it's not unusual for 1st or 2nd years to leave to go clerk, then come back, then go AUSA).

Are you the same person who was pushing this nonsense in another thread?

DPW is a great firm for lit, arguably stronger than STB. Don't use BS to try to justify it, stick with real things.

OP: I think it'll depend largely on what type of lit you want to do. Different firms (read: different partners) are going to be strong in different areas.

Given that you want to end up in DC long-term, I'd probably take Hogan. I don't think you're sacrificing much in terms of quality of work, and I have a feeling it'll be a smoother transition from there to someplace else in DC than DPW or STB would be.

I have actually heard that about DPW too, and people I met with at DPW also said that the most common exit option for their litigators is USAOs.
If I had something like Wilmer, Covington, or even Cleary/Skadden in DC, that would be a no-brainer for me. From everyone I've spoken to about this (practitioners) and read online (Chambers, etc.), it seems like DPW/STB are in that more "rarefied air" level than Hogan in DC. I know Hogan would obviously give me more connections in DC right away, but turning down the prestige of DPW/STB irks me a little, especially given the fact that I would likely be able to easily move to DC from either of those places.

Also, I wanted to point out that in terms of my DC options, especially in the context of future gov't opportunities, all of the DC attorneys (re: AUSAs/Partners who were former prosecutors) almost unanimously have said Latham. What's with the Latham DC hate?

[Desert Fox]

[Anonymous User]

I have actually heard that about DPW too, and people I met with at DPW also said that the most common exit option for their litigators is USAOs

The latter part is probably an exaggeration but DPW does have a strong and deserved rep for sending associates to USAOs. However, whether someone can become AUSA in SDNY depends on a ton of other factors aside from what law firm you're at (clerkships, substantive experience, connections, etc.), and so picking a firm based on that expectation doesn't make sense to me.

Litigation in New York sucks relative to other places, though, and if you want to end up in DC I definitely think there are advantages to starting out there and I would imagine that firms like Hogan and Latham are more connected with bigfed agencies than DPW or Simpson are with NYC US Attorneys offices.

[Anonymous User]

OP here.

Really don't know what to do. I think deep down I want to go to one of STB/DPW. I love their prestige & uber-elite NY white-shoe status, and they both seem like really great places to work (in the scheme of biglaw). Despite this, intellectually I know that DC would make more sense, given that I want to have my long-term career there. If I had a Wilmer or W&C in DC, I would do it in a second. I just don't see Latham (where I probably would wind up if I went to DC) as having even close to the same uber-elite status as STB/DPW. The 2009 layoffs obviously still come to mind re: Latham. Latham also seems more cookie-cutter- they do great work all over the US, but I feel like STB/DPW are just....better. If I have the luxury of being an elitist snob in this sense, why shouldn't I be? I'm not trolling, y'all- I'm genuinely conflicted. A heart/mind type conflict.

tl;dr: My inner elitist prestige-monger really wants the STB/DPW on my resume. My head says that it doesn't make sense to go to NY for 3-5 years just to have to relocate and make new connections in DC. Therefore, the "logical" play seems to say Latham DC. But my heart don't want it. WHAT TO DO?!?!

[jbagelboy]

Your reasoning is wrong. But go to Davis Polk. It will give you what you're looking for. And it's a great lit practice.

[Anonymous User]

Your reasoning is wrong. But go to Davis Polk. It will give you what you're looking for. And it's a great lit practice.

Understood...but- jbagelboy, oh wizard of firms, why is my reasoning wrong?

[thesealocust]

You can make a case for Hogan or DPW/STB pretty easily, but it will boil down to the personal factor of whether you want to spend some time in NYC, or whether it sounds horrible but you're seduced by "prestige." I really don't think DPW/STB NYC are better in any meaningful way than Hogan DC for lit, they're just... in New York? Like DF said, I'd bet money Hogan DC is more selective.

But you probably can start in NYC and move to DC, so if that's what you desire, go nuts - it's a defensible choice, even if it's purely for personal reasons. You're allowed to like New York and the idea of working there for a while, even if it's objectively horrible and expensive. I mean at least it's not literally a swamp like DC.

[Anonymous User]

Hi friends,

I would like your advice/thoughts/suggestions about the decision I'm currently making.

Goals:
- go to the best possible place for Litigation
- go to the most prestigious firm/gives me great exit options
- go to firm that has great connections to DOJ/AUSA positions
- wind up in DC long-term

My options is NY are more prestigious than my options in DC. By all accounts, DPW/STB are on another level than Latham/Hogan. From what I hear, it would be commonplace to transfer to DC or to get an AUSA position in DC from either of the places in NY. I have ties to NY. I think it would be a lot of fun to be an associate in NY for a few years. I think DC is a better long-term option to settle down in, and want to have most of my career there. I have some ties to DC as well.

What are your thoughts, oh law firm sages?

This is probably not true. I bet it's harder to get an offer at Hogan than DPW/STB.

NYC's best Vault firms are notorious for giving their lit associates pure shit quality of experience. Those are the firms that can still get clients to pay 450 bucks an hour for someone to do doc review, and guess who does it! Junior associates. I don't know a ton of people at these firms doing lit, but those I do match those experiences. One friend in particular spent a year at one of the above (before clerkship) and did nothing but doc review and fact summary memos. Her exit interview said she didn't review docs quick enough. lol.

For litigation, the exit options are not so unequally distributed between regular biglaw and the elite biglaw. I sincerely doubt DPW/STB have better exit options than Lathnam and Hogan for exits to DC. Lit isn't like corp where the V15ish are just doing totally different work than everyone else. I don't believe you can reliably lateral to a firm as good as Latham or Hogan from STB/DPW. Plenty do, but plenty also lateral to much shittier firms in DC.

For DOJ/AUSA jobs, DC biglaw work seems like a better match because DC biglaw practice groups tend to be more relevant to the type of work. Then again DPW/STB have pretty good white collar groups. Though I do wonder if you'll really have the freedom to ensure you get to work in them.

If you want a game-changer, boutiques are the real deal. You'll get better work experience and a better environment.

DC biglaw also has a measurably better QOL.

I'd take the best DC firm you get (which I would have said was Hogan, but trust people in the sort of job you want as long as they aren't Latham partners).

Have been lurking on this forum for a long time; this is probably the first time I look at a DF post and think "wow, this is spot on advice."
DF's post is 100% credited. If you want fedgov + DC long term, you'd be better off starting in DC (assuming you get Hogan - Latham is a tougher choice to make). If you only care about "prestige," by all means go for DPW/STB, but in your position there's not really any reason to go unless you actually want to be in New York - which you don't.

For what it's worth, at my T14 Latham DC > DPW > STB > Hogan DC in grade selectivity by a very small amount. But then again Latham is Latham, and grade selectivity isn't always the best indicator of actual selectivity.

[Anonymous User]

For what it's worth, at my T14 Latham DC > DPW > STB > Hogan DC in grade selectivity by a very small amount. But then again Latham is Latham, and grade selectivity isn't always the best indicator of actual selectivity.

What does that mean?

[Anonymous User]

For what it's worth, at my T14 Latham DC > DPW > STB > Hogan DC in grade selectivity by a very small amount. But then again Latham is Latham, and grade selectivity isn't always the best indicator of actual selectivity.

What does that mean?

One of the reasons I don't like Latham is that the firm seems to think very highly of itself, generally. So I'm not surprised it has higher grade standards for DC than other firms that blow its DC office out of the water.

[jbagelboy]

Your reasoning is wrong. But go to Davis Polk. It will give you what you're looking for. And it's a great lit practice.

Understood...but- jbagelboy, oh wizard of firms, why is my reasoning wrong?

Because prestige is stupid. Really, though.

[dixiecupdrinking]

If you genuinely want to work in NYC for a while at a place that will probably not substantially prejudice your long term ability to go work in DC for the Feds, then DPW/STB are good choices.

If you just want to learn firsthand why having A VAULT 5 FIRM on your resume won't make you any happier than working anywhere else, go right ahead but don't say you weren't warned.

If you actually want to live and work in DC both now and long term, and are looking for reassurance that you shouldn't worry about the fact that your decision will contradict a ranking performed by 27-year-old associates sitting in their offices at 11 pm... well, go to Hogan and don't look back.

[itbdvorm]

Some crazy talk in this thread.

ALL top DC practices are extremely difficult to get into. Every DC office is going to have its share of ex-senior government officials, AUSAs, etc.

If you want a long-term career in DC you should start in DC. It will be EXPONENTIALLY easier to become the DC-based government/regulatory/whatever you want to be from a top DC office (which both Hogan and Latham are) than from a top NYC white shoe firm.

I'm sorry, but if you are who you say you are picking DPW/STB here is a dumb move.

[Anonymous User]

Some crazy talk in this thread.

ALL top DC practices are extremely difficult to get into. Every DC office is going to have its share of ex-senior government officials, AUSAs, etc.

If you want a long-term career in DC you should start in DC. It will be EXPONENTIALLY easier to become the DC-based government/regulatory/whatever you want to be from a top DC office (which both Hogan and Latham are) than from a top NYC white shoe firm.

I'm sorry, but if you are who you say you are picking DPW/STB here is a dumb move.

OP here. That's what I needed to hear. As much as I like to hear jbagelboy's "insights," you, itbdvorm, are someone I trust. Thank you for your input.

[jbagelboy]

[quote="Anonymous User"][quote]Some crazy talk in this thread.

ALL top DC practices are extremely difficult to get into. Every DC office is going to have its share of ex-senior government officials, AUSAs, etc.

If you want a long-term career in DC you should start in DC. It will be EXPONENTIALLY easier to become the DC-based government/regulatory/whatever you want to be from a top DC office (which both Hogan and Latham are) than from a top NYC white shoe firm.

I'm sorry, but if you are who you say you are picking DPW/STB here is a dumb move.[/quote]

OP here. That's what I needed to hear. As much as I like to hear jbagelboy's "insights," you, itbdvorm, are someone I trust. Thank you for your input.[/quote]

Well, thanks? I told you that I thought your approach emphasizing the names and signals of the firms was the wrong approach. I didn't say the right move was new york. I agree with everything said here.

[dixiecupdrinking]

Some crazy talk in this thread.

ALL top DC practices are extremely difficult to get into. Every DC office is going to have its share of ex-senior government officials, AUSAs, etc.

If you want a long-term career in DC you should start in DC. It will be EXPONENTIALLY easier to become the DC-based government/regulatory/whatever you want to be from a top DC office (which both Hogan and Latham are) than from a top NYC white shoe firm.

I'm sorry, but if you are who you say you are picking DPW/STB here is a dumb move.

OP here. That's what I needed to hear. As much as I like to hear jbagelboy's "insights," you, itbdvorm, are someone I trust. Thank you for your input.

Well, thanks? I told you that I thought your approach emphasizing the names and signals of the firms was the wrong approach. I didn't say the right move was new york. I agree with everything said here.

Also itbdvorm's response is pretty much the same as the consensus?

[84651846190]

Some crazy talk in this thread.

ALL top DC practices are extremely difficult to get into. Every DC office is going to have its share of ex-senior government officials, AUSAs, etc.

If you want a long-term career in DC you should start in DC. It will be EXPONENTIALLY easier to become the DC-based government/regulatory/whatever you want to be from a top DC office (which both Hogan and Latham are) than from a top NYC white shoe firm.

I'm sorry, but if you are who you say you are picking DPW/STB here is a dumb move.

OP here. That's what I needed to hear. As much as I like to hear jbagelboy's "insights," you, itbdvorm, are someone I trust. Thank you for your input.

You seem weird. You're not going to succeed in law.

[Traynor Brah]

OP here. That's what I needed to hear. As much as I like to hear jbagelboy's "insights," you, itbdvorm, are someone I trust. Thank you for your input.

why would you shit on jbagel there?

You seem weird.

[VulcanVulcanVulcan]

OP here.

Really don't know what to do. I think deep down I want to go to one of STB/DPW. I love their prestige & uber-elite NY white-shoe status, and they both seem like really great places to work (in the scheme of biglaw). Despite this, intellectually I know that DC would make more sense, given that I want to have my long-term career there. If I had a Wilmer or W&C in DC, I would do it in a second. I just don't see Latham (where I probably would wind up if I went to DC) as having even close to the same uber-elite status as STB/DPW. The 2009 layoffs obviously still come to mind re: Latham. Latham also seems more cookie-cutter- they do great work all over the US, but I feel like STB/DPW are just....better. If I have the luxury of being an elitist snob in this sense, why shouldn't I be? I'm not trolling, y'all- I'm genuinely conflicted. A heart/mind type conflict.

tl;dr: My inner elitist prestige-monger really wants the STB/DPW on my resume. My head says that it doesn't make sense to go to NY for 3-5 years just to have to relocate and make new connections in DC. Therefore, the "logical" play seems to say Latham DC. But my heart don't want it. WHAT TO DO?!?!

DC hiring partners and committees aren't particularly impressed by STB and DPW. You're assuming that they make minute distinctions between V10 firms (such that, in TLS parlance, STB/DPW > Skadden/Cleary/Weil/PW/whatever). But in the end you're just another litigation associate doing the same banking/securities lit/white collar stuff. It's not that different between V10 firms. No Wilmer partner is going to see a STB or DPW lateral resume and be like, "OMG! CALL HIM RIGHT NOW AND MAKE AN OFFER! SIGHT UNSEEN!" There are literally hundreds of new STB and DPW associates each year. You're not that special. You're not working at Wachtell, or Kellogg Huber, or Keker.

It might feel great to work at your white-shoe NY law firm, but no one outside of NY really cares. This is true for DC, it's true for California, and so on.

If you want to be in DC, you must adjust to the DC legal market, rather than imposing a NY-centric view. Hogan DC does much further than STB or DPW NY.

[Anonymous User]

Where did you end up choosing, OP?

Did NY win out? If not, did Latham win out?