ITT: "I left X Large Law Firm because Y." Forum

[xael]

One of my go-to questions in interviews is "what portion of your original class is still here?" The answer is always "no one I know of has left for another large firm in X city--except for the clerks, of course."

This is kind of useless. First, leaving to clerk is like the easiest way to leave a firm (or at least it seems to be--as in, you can leave the earliest). Second, that fifth year you are talking to probably would have stayed at any law firm. Sometimes you get goldmines (a partner saying he lateralled to another firm before coming back to his original firm a year later), but overall, I'd really like to be able to speak with people who left specific law firms, and I feel like other people would want to do the same.

I don't really know the best way to do this--I was thinking people could do it anon, but I could see how this could get specific. I also thought people could post what firms they are considering, and be like "PM me please." Taking questions on the format and stuff.

But regardless, people who have left a firm could you please post which firm and why (and if you are comfortable, where generally you went--another large law firm in the same city [or, if clerking, you intend to go there] or pi/gov are the most relevant imho) and if the reasons were related to biglaw in general, or to that specific firm?

Or point me in the right direction if this thread already exists. This is kind of similar to "firms to avoid," but I'd like to keep it, if possible, to people who actually worked at these firms, and not what the firms did in the recession. Not that that isn't super super important too, but there are already threads for that.

[Anonymous User]

I've had people tell me:

Cravath: entered in to a rotation group he really enjoyed. Then rotated out, realized that that was his legal calling or whatever. Went to a new (boutique) firm so he could keep practicing it.

Jones Day nyc: somebody lateralled and then left after less than a year.

Cadwalader: left because of how associates were treated during the recession.

Skadden: left because he wouldn't make partner.

[Mad Hatter]

Cadwalader: left because of how associates were treated during the recession.

Like, out of principle? Because that sounds suspect.

[Anonymous User]

PMed

[SLS_AMG]

I actually don't find the "no one has left for another firm" to be quite as useless as OP. It's the very nature of big law that not everyone can make partner and stay forever. If people are leaving for in-house or government positions, I don't think that necessarily reflects badly on the firm. On the flip side, if people are leaving firm X for similar firm Y, that probably does reflect poorly on firm X absent some epiphany on the associate's part whereby s/he wants to work in Z group at Y firm.

If memory serves, certain firms do tend to have a worryingly high number of laterals out to other firms.

[xael]

I actually don't find the "no one has left for another firm" to be quite as useless as OP. It's the very nature of big law that not everyone can make partner and stay forever. If people are leaving for in-house or government positions, I don't think that necessarily reflects badly on the firm. On the flip side, if people are leaving firm X for similar firm Y, that probably does reflect poorly on firm X absent some epiphany on the associate's part whereby s/he wants to work in Z group at Y firm.

If memory serves, certain firms do tend to have a worryingly high number of laterals out to other firms.

Absolutely, that's why I want to know why people have left.

Some people are going to leave for government. Maybe the opportunity just came up, and they will come back in a few years, or maybe they went in to biglaw always planning on going to gov. Other people are going to go clerk, and maybe they were always planning on clerking after working a bit and plan on returning, but maybe they just couldn't stand to be at that firm for one more second, and clerking (if you know the right people) can be a fast way out. Or maybe they left for practice area or for location or for an SO.

But everyone does leave for a reason, and at the very least, they are able to talk about the firm and compare their old firm to their new firm. Maybe everything they hated about their old firm exists at the new one because it's just part of biglaw in general etc etc.

[Anonymous User]

To add to the "had people tell me"

DPW: good people but very hierarchical nature meant that litigators only saw discrete pieces of work and didn't get to have much of an understanding of the case as a whole; left to join a firm where matters were staffed more leanly.

[Anonymous User]

left nyc v5 firm for a firm near bottom of the vault rankings pretty early on in career. basically took a ~10% paycut for a much better lifestyle. not outing the firm because I don't think it matters. I was just getting really crushed and woke up one morning like, wait, I could be getting the same salary for a lot less work... why am I putting up with this... (same salary in the sense that an extra 10-20k a year at an associate's level is not really going to change your socio-economic class or standard of living, I also have no loans)

ive heard many times smaller firms can be just as bad, I just don't see how that can be true. my clients now are waaay more cost conscious and won't put up so much of the BS work they make up for you to do at the top firms. the do the exact amount of work necessary to close the deal, nothing more. there is also a lot more pushing back I've found. its a different caliber of associates, with way fewer gunners than at my v5.

[PMan99]

I actually don't find the "no one has left for another firm" to be quite as useless as OP. It's the very nature of big law that not everyone can make partner and stay forever. If people are leaving for in-house or government positions, I don't think that necessarily reflects badly on the firm. On the flip side, if people are leaving firm X for similar firm Y, that probably does reflect poorly on firm X absent some epiphany on the associate's part whereby s/he wants to work in Z group at Y firm.

If memory serves, certain firms do tend to have a worryingly high number of laterals out to other firms.

Absolutely, that's why I want to know why people have left.

Some people are going to leave for government. Maybe the opportunity just came up, and they will come back in a few years, or maybe they went in to biglaw always planning on going to gov. Other people are going to go clerk, and maybe they were always planning on clerking after working a bit and plan on returning, but maybe they just couldn't stand to be at that firm for one more second, and clerking (if you know the right people) can be a fast way out. Or maybe they left for practice area or for location or for an SO.

But everyone does leave for a reason, and at the very least, they are able to talk about the firm and compare their old firm to their new firm. Maybe everything they hated about their old firm exists at the new one because it's just part of biglaw in general etc etc.

I'm not sure if there are a substantial number of ex-biglaw people on TLS.

Regardless, you're missing the single biggest reason people leave biglaw: because they got pushed out.

[xael]

Thought that went unstated, but that's also a reason I'd like to hear and I think other people would be interested to hear as well.

[Anonymous User]

I left my firm in a non-NYC primary market (V90)-ish for a V20 firm for a number of reasons: (1) growth didn't seem sustainable; (2) bonuses; (3) disliked a number of people I worked with; and (4) didn't love the work I was doing.

[Anonymous User]

I asked an associate who had lateraled at a callback and he seemed really uncomfortable and kept saying "nothing bad to say about that firm" a bunch of times. I wonder if he got pushed out and I made it awkward :-/

Didn't get an offer.

[Desert Fox]

[xael]

I got that answer today but yesterday I interviewed with someone from that dude's class at a different firm.

[Anonymous User]

It may be a little easier for corp since the lateral market is so hot, but I've been asking to speak with laterals from other firms I have offers from on second looks to get this info.

[Glasseyes]

You guys are asking this stuff during screeners and callbacks? I thought it was a fairly obvious and standard rule that you basically leave the probing or potentially negative questions for the second look, whereas your sole function at any interview that happens before the offer is to get. the. offer.

If it's generally a faux pas to mention the name of any other firm in an interview, and it's even worse to say anything negative about any other firm, why would you think it's ok to put the interviewer in a position where you're obviously trying to get them to either talk shit on other firms or give up the dirt on their own firm?

I'm sure plenty of folks are fine discussing this stuff, and if they bring it up organically, fine (def happened with me a number of times). But specifically raising that question seems like a recipe for dings that didn't have to happen.

[monsterman]

I think, and I assume a lot of other people did this too, that it's easier to get ballsy with your questions once you have an offer in hand from a different firm. But it's probably pretty wise to avoid asking any potentially offending questions if you are still waiting for that first offer...no idea who that kind of stuff can rub the wrong way

[Anonymous User]

I left my V5 because working there was incompatible with life.

If you're really interested in this question, this book is worth reading: http://www.amazon.com/Way-Worse-Than-Be ... B007UVXG0I

[Anonymous User]

One of the large firms in a secondary market in the midwest. I've always been interested in this too. Of the attorneys I've spoken with who lateraled from similarly large local firms to mine, by far the most common reason I've heard has been changing practice groups. A few local firms slow-play the practice area assignment so that you might not get that assignment until after you accept your offer and 3L recruiting is done, or they'll broadly commit to corp/lit and then give you the specific assignment closer to your start date. I don't know if that's common in other markets, but it does seem to leave a bitter taste.

[Anonymous User]

I started with the class of 2010 and there are only a handful (4-5) out of an original 25-30 who started still at my old firm. However, almost everyone had a soft landing. A smattering of anecdotes:

Me: couldn't stand NYC anymore, wanted to move back home. Firm was as good as could be expected from biglaw.
Associate 1: Main partner he worked for lateralled to a similarly ranked firm, took him with.
Associate 2: Married bigshot trader/banker type, moved to Europe.
Associate 3: Soft canned (given a few months), lateralled to a higher-ranked firm.
Associate 4: Realized they wanted to do public interest and an opportunity came up
Associate 5: Family friend was partner at another similarly ranked firm. Asked to come with.

Also a few laterals in:

Associate 1: (lateralled in from v5)- was being worked to death and didn't like most of the people
Associate 2: (lateralled in from lower v100)- didn't like culture at old firm, got recruiter call
Associate 3: (lateralled from firm with notoriously bad work/life balance)- being worked to death and was promised more sane culture by recruiter

Anybody that says nobody lateralled to the firm from the same city is either ignorant, lying, at a small satellite office, or working in a city with very few biglaw offices.

[Anonymous User]

You guys are asking this stuff during screeners and callbacks? I thought it was a fairly obvious and standard rule that you basically leave the probing or potentially negative questions for the second look, whereas your sole function at any interview that happens before the offer is to get. the. offer.

If it's generally a faux pas to mention the name of any other firm in an interview, and it's even worse to say anything negative about any other firm, why would you think it's ok to put the interviewer in a position where you're obviously trying to get them to either talk shit on other firms or give up the dirt on their own firm?

I'm sure plenty of folks are fine discussing this stuff, and if they bring it up organically, fine (def happened with me a number of times). But specifically raising that question seems like a recipe for dings that didn't have to happen.

Which questions are you referring to? I don't ask things like "can you get me in contact with people who have left the firm," but I do ask in almost every interview how many people stay and where the people who leave go. It hasn't led to any rejections.

I wouldn't look at it as trying to get them to talk shit about other firms or their firm. It really is giving them another chance to talk their firm up--whether it is the bullshit "no one has left our firm for another large NYC law firm" or genuinely saying like "28 of 29 clerks returned to our firm." Especially with partners, they want to be able to wax on about how X Firm is THE PLACE for biglaw.

[Anonymous User]

but also, could people who left cravath post your username ITT so I can PM you? (or, if no one is willing to connect their username I guess I'll post mine but I'd prefer not to).

[Anonymous User]

At my V25 firm, my class started at around 20 people in 2013. After just under 2 years, 25% are gone. As for reasons, 2 moved to a different geographic market (though current firm had office out there, so I'd imagine it was more than just locale change). 1 went to a boutique firm in an area he really wanted to break into. 1 went to clerk, and 1 wanted to change practice areas and couldn't do it internally, so ended up at another big firm.

[xael]

So I was really hoping to organize this by specific firms so we'd have a kind of network of people who had left for other people to reach out to. Kind of like "reach out to X to talk about Y." But I get that people don't want to post ITT "I left Jones Day" because of fears of being outed.

Does anyone have a suggestion of how to do this completely anonymously?

[kaiser]

So I was really hoping to organize this by specific firms so we'd have a kind of network of people who had left for other people to reach out to. Kind of like "reach out to X to talk about Y." But I get that people don't want to post ITT "I left Jones Day" because of fears of being outed.

Does anyone have a suggestion of how to do this completely anonymously?

People are not going to be willing to do that unfortunately, since its such sensitive info. Far too easy to be outed if people use specifics, and posting that kind of stuff on the net can come back to bite you.