Cravath v. Debevoise v. Proskauer? Forum

[Anonymous User]

Very fortunate to have it narrowed down to this, and am certainly not taking it for granted. If anyone has experience/firsthand words of wisdom I'd appreciate it!

Interested in corporate: prob M&A or real estate, would maybe like to go in-house NBA or NFL (although that's a pipe dream)

Thanks for the input!!

[bearsfan23]

Unless you just really like Proskauer and the people there, I'm not sure why you'd be considering them over your other two options. That would be like choosing a Ford Focus over a Lexus or Range Rover.

I'm sure other people will chime in, but you can't really go wrong between Cravath and Deb. I know people that summered at both places this past summer and have been happy with their decisions.

[Clearly]

Proskauer is getting votes for the sports stuff

Unless you just really like Proskauer and the people there, I'm not sure why you'd be considering them over your other two options. That would be like choosing a Ford Focus over a Lexus or Range Rover.

I'm sure other people will chime in, but you can't really go wrong between Cravath and Deb. I know people that summered at both places this past summer and have been happy with their decisions.

[bearsfan23]

I get Proskauer's sports rep, but I wouldn't make a decision just based on that. I remember interviewing there last summer and being told directly by a partner that their Sports and L&E work is highly competitive, and many associates that want to do that work just aren't able to.

Anyways, it's not like Deb or Cravath would preclude you from working for the NFL/NBA. Remember, NBA Commissioner Adam Silver is a former Cravath attorney

[Anonymous User]

But Cravath doesn't have any sports leagues as its clients- common knowledge is best way to go in house is through your firm's clients

[iamgeorgebush]

Cravath and it's not even a question. If you hate Cravath, you can always lateral to Deb or Proskauer. The converse is not true. And your exit options to in-house positions would be much better coming from Cravath. Even if the NBA and NFL are not Cravath clients, having Cravath on your resume would probably do more to get you in the door than having Proskauer on your resume. And again, you can always lateral to Proskauer after a few years at Cravath if that's your desire—I bet they'd be happy to have you.

Also, from what I hear, it's very hard to get sports work at Proskauer—as others have mentioned, everyone wants to do it. So don't think you'll be doing much "sports law" at Proskauer.

[03152016]

Cravath and it's not even a question. If you hate Cravath, you can always lateral to Deb or Proskauer. The converse is not true. And your exit options to in-house positions would be much better coming from Cravath. Even if the NBA and NFL are not Cravath clients, having Cravath on your resume would probably do more to get you in the door than having Proskauer on your resume. And again, you can always lateral to Proskauer after a few years at Cravath if that's your desire—I bet they'd be happy to have you.

Also, from what I hear, it's very hard to get sports work at Proskauer—as others have mentioned, everyone wants to do it. So don't think you'll be doing much "sports law" at Proskauer.

Aren't you a fucking 1L?

[nothingtosee]

Cravath and it's not even a question. If you hate Cravath, you can always lateral to Deb or Proskauer. The converse is not true. And your exit options to in-house positions would be much better coming from Cravath. Even if the NBA and NFL are not Cravath clients, having Cravath on your resume would probably do more to get you in the door than having Proskauer on your resume. And again, you can always lateral to Proskauer after a few years at Cravath if that's your desire—I bet they'd be happy to have you.

Also, from what I hear, it's very hard to get sports work at Proskauer—as others have mentioned, everyone wants to do it. So don't think you'll be doing much "sports law" at Proskauer.

Aren't you a fucking 1L?

Strong fucking anon post

[El Pollito]

Cravath and it's not even a question. If you hate Cravath, you can always lateral to Deb or Proskauer. The converse is not true. And your exit options to in-house positions would be much better coming from Cravath. Even if the NBA and NFL are not Cravath clients, having Cravath on your resume would probably do more to get you in the door than having Proskauer on your resume. And again, you can always lateral to Proskauer after a few years at Cravath if that's your desire—I bet they'd be happy to have you.

Also, from what I hear, it's very hard to get sports work at Proskauer—as others have mentioned, everyone wants to do it. So don't think you'll be doing much "sports law" at Proskauer.

lol get the fuck out

[jbagelboy]

I definitely don't think this is an easy answer for one firm. I'm not sure where that advise is coming from outside of the vault survey.

[SLS_AMG]

Cravath and it's not even a question. If you hate Cravath, you can always lateral to Deb or Proskauer. The converse is not true. And your exit options to in-house positions would be much better coming from Cravath. Even if the NBA and NFL are not Cravath clients, having Cravath on your resume would probably do more to get you in the door than having Proskauer on your resume. And again, you can always lateral to Proskauer after a few years at Cravath if that's your desire—I bet they'd be happy to have you.

Also, from what I hear, it's very hard to get sports work at Proskauer—as others have mentioned, everyone wants to do it. So don't think you'll be doing much "sports law" at Proskauer.

Aren't you a fucking 1L?

Seriously. Believe it not, Vault slave, other firms don't shit their pants for Cravath laterals if they don't have a need for that specialty.

[Tiago Splitter]

I definitely don't think this is an easy answer for one firm. I'm not sure where that advise is coming from outside of the vault survey.

I think the dismissal of Proskauer is based on more than Vault. Proskauer's specialty is L&E, which OP doesn't seem especially interested in given his stated desire for M&A or RE. The sports law dream is just that, as most dudes going to Proskauer think they'll be the next David Stern only to quickly realize the way things actually work.

OP you will find lawyers at both Cravath and Debevoise who have worked on sports-related deals at those firms. As do many lawyers at many other big firms. I wouldn't make a big deal out of Proskauer's supposed advantage there.

[jbagelboy]

I definitely don't think this is an easy answer for one firm. I'm not sure where that advise is coming from outside of the vault survey.

I think the dismissal of Proskauer is based on more than Vault. Proskauer's specialty is L&E, which OP doesn't seem especially interested in given his stated desire for M&A or RE. The sports law dream is just that, as most dudes going to Proskauer think they'll be the next David Stern only to quickly realize the way things actually work.

OP you will find lawyers at both Cravath and Debevoise who have worked on sports-related deals at those firms. As do many lawyers at many other big firms. I wouldn't make a big deal out of Proskauer's supposed advantage there.

I meant more b/t Deb and CSM. I don't know anything about Proskauer but my sense is that it's not regarded the same way as these other two.

[Tiago Splitter]

yeah between Cravath and Deb it's a toss up.

[lavarman84]

Unless you know that you are going to be able to get into Proskauer's sports practice, I wouldn't go there from that reason. I was told by a partner in the firm that it's incredibly difficult to get into their sports practice.

[Anonymous User]

Rob Kiessling at Cravath does a lot of financing work for NBA, NFL, and MLB.

[Anonymous User]

OP here, anyone know in re to exit options the diff between Deb & CSM?

Vault rankings aside, is the prestige factor-only again in re to exit options- a real diff maker between the two?

[Anonymous User]

Start at Cravath. Lateral to Proskauer. Transition to league. Profit.

[jbagelboy]

OP here, anyone know in re to exit options the diff between Deb & CSM?

Vault rankings aside, is the prestige factor-only again in re to exit options- a real diff maker between the two?

What makes you think there's a difference

[Anonymous User]

The exit opps from CSM are golden. I was a corp paralegal there (many years ago, in NY and London) and associates could literally do whatever they wanted after--small firms, clerkships, investment banking, tech, other biglaw firms, in-house at banks, opening an art gallery, WHATEVER.

Do not underestimate your capacity for all-nighters if you go to CSM. I partied a ton in college and was an athlete and came from banking to CSM, and I was exhausted after two years. They are not shitting you about going home before midnight being a good night. This is not like school. Your ass will be in a chair 12-15 hours a day. It's a lot. Think about it and make sure that you can work at a very high level for those hours, because mistakes are not tolerated at CSM. Perfection is expected.

Also, CSM seemed like a cold place, but about three months in, and you've been to war with your colleagues, and being in the trenches together makes it seem like a family. The CSM partners I worked for are still amazing references and FB friends and just fantastic. I'm very grateful for my time there, and having it on my resume, even as a paralegal, has opened many doors for me in the ensuing years. (I did a bunch of other stuff and am now a 3L.)

[iamgeorgebush]

Cravath and it's not even a question. If you hate Cravath, you can always lateral to Deb or Proskauer. The converse is not true. And your exit options to in-house positions would be much better coming from Cravath. Even if the NBA and NFL are not Cravath clients, having Cravath on your resume would probably do more to get you in the door than having Proskauer on your resume. And again, you can always lateral to Proskauer after a few years at Cravath if that's your desire—I bet they'd be happy to have you.

Also, from what I hear, it's very hard to get sports work at Proskauer—as others have mentioned, everyone wants to do it. So don't think you'll be doing much "sports law" at Proskauer.

Aren't you a fucking 1L?

Seriously. Believe it not, Vault slave, other firms don't shit their pants for Cravath laterals if they don't have a need for that specialty.

Cravath doesn't place its associates in "specialties." Rather, Cravath associates choose either litigation or corporate and then rotate through different partner groups (12-18 months per rotation for corporate) within their chosen department. Assuming you can handle the hours and everything (not everyone can) and stick around for a few rotations, you'll receive excellent training and become incredibly versatile. This leads to fantastic exit options---something I've heard directly from corporate partners at other highly regarded firms (i.e., V10 through V25). But what do those partners know?

(And no, I'm not a 1L. But great use of anon.)

[smaug]

yeah between Cravath and Deb it's a toss up.

I agree with this. I think the differences between the two are being pumped up a bit in this thread. Whatever differences there are in ~prestige~ (less than some above seem to think) they're made up for by staffing/culture/location/other considerations.

[Anonymous User]

IMO, lots of bad advice ITT.

1. There is no such thing as "sports law", than as a (obviously useful, see OP) marketing ploy for Proskauer. L&E is L&E, and deals are deals. I don't even think Proskauer has a disproportionate percentage of sports transactional work - most of the big sports deals are handled by (shockingly) the big deal firms - places like Cravath & S&C.

2. In house jobs at major sports leagues/teams are crappy jobs - uninteresting and underpaid. They are attractive to 25 year old men who don't know better. They are also not that hard to get, if you're willing to eat the (very large) pay cut compared to other in house jobs.

3. Any difference in exit opportunities between Cravath and Deb is subtle. Far more important is surviving to year 5 where your opportunities will be the most choice.

4. Any difference in hours worked / QoL between Cravath and Deb is subtle or non-existent. You will work seriously hard at any top firm.

5. If I had your choices, I'd pick Cravath.

- an actual associate

[Anonymous User]

OP here, thanks for the great advice!

Couple questions:

a) I know CSM is infamous for the hours, but like you said Deb is the same, if the firms offer essentially the same exit options, why Cravath?

b) what if I were to lateral from CSM to Deb after 2-3 years...bad move?

c) it's hard to get a sense of the culture, but I noticed I really liked the people with whom I met at Deb...would you still pick CSM given this info?

[Anonymous User]

How much do leagues pay counsel anyways? The NFLPA releases salary data and shows lawyers making 150k+. Wouldn't leagues pay a similar amount? Pretty sure teams pay less though.

https://www.unionfacts.com/local/employees/65533/FPA/0/