STB v. DPW Forum

[Anonymous User]

Lucky enough to have offers from both but I'm having a tough time making this decision because they seem so similar.

Went and did second looks at both and still can't decide. I felt like I had more of a connection with the people at STB, but I also really liked/admired everyone I met at DPW. I'm nervous about choosing based on a few people I really connected with that may or may not still be there by the time I start working, when the overall vibe I got from the firms was very similar - nice people who put out a great work product. I felt comfortable and relaxed with the people I met at STB, but I felt really excited and happy to be at DPW. Both great feelings but I have no idea which is better to choose. I have no strong gut feeling either way.

Leaning corporate, but still up in the air and open to litigation as well. I'm interested in trying out some smaller practice groups within corporate, i.e. Real Estate/Environmental. Is one of these firms better for allowing you to try out work in small groups or does one make it easier to eventually work in a small group?

I would really appreciate any advice. Thank you guys in advance!

[legends159]

Identical firms by and large. STB allows for 3 rotations while DPW only 2. You'll work across from each other on corporate deals all the time. STB leans towards representing PE clients while DPW more towards bank clients. They are both sophisticated clients but very demanding and unreasonable.

Not enough differences on a substantive level between the two so it doesn't matter which you pick. Maybe go with STB if you want to do more rotations as that can give you more exposure.

Edit: why do you want to do a small group? I usually found those people have it worst as they mostly work for the bigger groups (unless your partner can generate their own business). What this means is that you're on a ton of deals with little visibility and under constant fire drills. When the clients shit on the big group, they in turn sit on it until they can look at it then farm some of the shit out to the little groups. By the time the little group gets it there's a short turnaround time. It's not like the little group partner can say to the big group partner to do better next time since the latter feeds the former. Thus the associates get the worst end of it.

On the flip side, I think little groups bill fewer hours but theres more unpredictability.

[Anonymous User]

Identical firms by and large. STB allows for 3 rotations while DPW only 2. You'll work across from each other on corporate deals all the time. STB leans towards representing PE clients while DPW more towards bank clients. They are both sophisticated clients but very demanding and unreasonable.

Not enough differences on a substantive level between the two so it doesn't matter which you pick. Maybe go with STB if you want to do more rotations as that can give you more exposure.

Edit: why do you want to do a small group? I usually found those people have it worst as they mostly work for the bigger groups (unless your partner can generate their own business). What this means is that you're on a ton of deals with little visibility and under constant fire drills. When the clients shit on the big group, they in turn sit on it until they can look at it then farm some of the shit out to the little groups. By the time the little group gets it there's a short turnaround time. It's not like the little group partner can say to the big group partner to do better next time since the latter feeds the former. Thus the associates get the worst end of it.

On the flip side, I think little groups bill fewer hours but theres more unpredictability.

Thank you so much!!

I'm interested in learning more about Real Estate/Environmental work, and those happen to be small practice areas. As I talked to attorneys throughout the recruiting process, they said considering other small groups might be a good idea because they saw it as the best of both worlds - a smaller firm feel within a big firm where you get to work with the same partners/associates and really get to know each other quickly. I thought it sounded like a good idea. Thank you for your insight! I am definitely interested in trying out other corporate groups in my summer or as an associate. I have no preference on PE or Capital Markets though, which I know would make this a much easier decision.

[Anonymous User]

I know very little about environmental, but I do know that DPW is making a concerted effort to grow its real estate practice. It currently has only a handful of associates, but they recently took the rare move of hiring lateral partners (both from Fried Frank I believe, which has the top real estate practice in the country) in order to bring that about.

Otherwise the firms are pretty similar. I disagree that they are totally alike (very different offices, DPW is lockstep whereas STB isn't, etc.), but they do have similar locations and hire more comparable people than, say, DPW and S&C.

[Anonymous User]

STB! Comfortable and relaxed is exactly how I would describe the firm. You don't see disgruntled former employees coming out of there quite as often as DPW.

[legends159]

I know very little about environmental, but I do know that DPW is making a concerted effort to grow its real estate practice. It currently has only a handful of associates, but they recently took the rare move of hiring lateral partners (both from Fried Frank I believe, which has the top real estate practice in the country) in order to bring that about.

Otherwise the firms are pretty similar. I disagree that they are totally alike (very different offices, DPW is lockstep whereas STB isn't, etc.), but they do have similar locations and hire more comparable people than, say, DPW and S&C.

STB is lockstep for associate pay. Not sure what you mean? If you mean partner comp that's irrelevant to associates and untrue. Plus you really think DPW is lockstep? They give huge bonuses to dept heads just like in all other firms.

Yes the office looks different but that's superficial. It's actually quite similarly furnished compared to other firms, just STB uses dark wood and DPW uses light wood.

[legends159]

You don't see disgruntled former employees coming out of there quite as often as DPW.

Useless statement unless you can back up with stats or at least point to anecdotes. All firms have disgruntled employees. It's the nature of biglaw. If it was pleasant they wouldn't pay you so much for doing so little of substance.

[Anonymous User]

Went and did second looks at both and still can't decide. I felt like I had more of a connection with the people at STB, but I also really liked/admired everyone I met at DPW. I'm nervous about choosing based on a few people I really connected with that may or may not still be there by the time I start working, when the overall vibe I got from the firms was very similar - nice people who put out a great work product. I felt comfortable and relaxed with the people I met at STB, but I felt really excited and happy to be at DPW. Both great feelings but I have no idea which is better to choose. I have no strong gut feeling either way.

I felt the very same way when I interviewed with these two firms. I'm an STB associate now. You can't go wrong here.

As to the comment on small groups, the Real Estate group at STB is very active and runs a lot of their own deals, so it's more than a support group for the other practices. I'm in one of the big groups.

[Anonymous User]

Absent a desire to work with PE clients (STB) or banks (DPW), there's not much reason to choose one over the other. I suppose if you prefer a central-assignment system, STB would be the better place, whereas if you prefer a more free-market-like system, DPW would be the better place. I voted for STB because after doing CBs at both firms, I liked the people I met at STB much more. Just one minor data point, so take that as you will...

[Anonymous User]

I know very little about environmental, but I do know that DPW is making a concerted effort to grow its real estate practice. It currently has only a handful of associates, but they recently took the rare move of hiring lateral partners (both from Fried Frank I believe, which has the top real estate practice in the country) in order to bring that.

Careful taking this too seriously. Can confirm first-hand that DPW's real estate practice is basically nonexistent insofar as what you'll want from it as an associate at firms like these.

It doesn't sound like you feel too strongly about real estate, but if you do, DPW is not the place.

[CTT]

I know very little about environmental, but I do know that DPW is making a concerted effort to grow its real estate practice. It currently has only a handful of associates, but they recently took the rare move of hiring lateral partners (both from Fried Frank I believe, which has the top real estate practice in the country) in order to bring that about.

Otherwise the firms are pretty similar. I disagree that they are totally alike (very different offices, DPW is lockstep whereas STB isn't, etc.), but they do have similar locations and hire more comparable people than, say, DPW and S&C.

STB is lockstep for associate pay. Not sure what you mean? If you mean partner comp that's irrelevant to associates and untrue. Plus you really think DPW is lockstep? They give huge bonuses to dept heads just like in all other firms.

Yes the office looks different but that's superficial. It's actually quite similarly furnished compared to other firms, just STB uses dark wood and DPW uses light wood.

DPW is known to have less variation among partner compensation than most other firms. Partner compensation does matter. It determines how the work gets spread by partners and the extent to which partners view view associates as working for them vs. working for the firms. True lockstep firms include Wachtell, Cleary, and Debevoise. Neither STB nor DPW is true lockstep. But I don't believe either is true eat what you kill craziness.

[SLS_AMG]

STB! Comfortable and relaxed is exactly how I would describe the firm. You don't see disgruntled former employees coming out of there quite as often as DPW.

Signed,
STB offeree who got rejected by DPW

I know very little about environmental, but I do know that DPW is making a concerted effort to grow its real estate practice. It currently has only a handful of associates, but they recently took the rare move of hiring lateral partners (both from Fried Frank I believe, which has the top real estate practice in the country) in order to bring that about.

Otherwise the firms are pretty similar. I disagree that they are totally alike (very different offices, DPW is lockstep whereas STB isn't, etc.), but they do have similar locations and hire more comparable people than, say, DPW and S&C.

STB is lockstep for associate pay. Not sure what you mean? If you mean partner comp that's irrelevant to associates and untrue. Plus you really think DPW is lockstep? They give huge bonuses to dept heads just like in all other firms.

Yes the office looks different but that's superficial. It's actually quite similarly furnished compared to other firms, just STB uses dark wood and DPW uses light wood.

So there's a lot of incorrect info here that needs to be corrected. First, when we talk about "lockstep" vs "non-lockstep" firms, we're referring to partner compensation, not associate comp. Virtually all firms have lockstep structures for associates. It's also not "untrue" that STB is non-lockstep at the partnership level and that DPW is lockstep. That is a fact. I disagree that it is irrelevant, but that at least is subjective. Lockstep advocates will argue that it fosters more camaraderie when partners aren't negotiating over what part of a deal they contributed to for billing practices, whereas "non-lockstep" advocates will argue that non-lockstep firms create more of a meritocracy. Believe there's a difference at the associate level or don't--I don't really care. But factually speaking, there is a difference in the compensation structure. Also, associate bonuses have nothing to do with whether a firm is lockstep.

I disagree that the offices are similarly furnished, but one thing is for certain: to the degree they are similar now, they will not be similar at all when OP is an associate. STB is currently renovating its office and going for an airier look, complete with glass doors and walls throughout the office. In 2-3 years STB's and DPW's offices will really be nothing alike.

[SLS_AMG]

I know very little about environmental, but I do know that DPW is making a concerted effort to grow its real estate practice. It currently has only a handful of associates, but they recently took the rare move of hiring lateral partners (both from Fried Frank I believe, which has the top real estate practice in the country) in order to bring that about.

Otherwise the firms are pretty similar. I disagree that they are totally alike (very different offices, DPW is lockstep whereas STB isn't, etc.), but they do have similar locations and hire more comparable people than, say, DPW and S&C.

STB is lockstep for associate pay. Not sure what you mean? If you mean partner comp that's irrelevant to associates and untrue. Plus you really think DPW is lockstep? They give huge bonuses to dept heads just like in all other firms.

Yes the office looks different but that's superficial. It's actually quite similarly furnished compared to other firms, just STB uses dark wood and DPW uses light wood.

DPW is known to have less variation among partner compensation than most other firms. Partner compensation does matter. It determines how the work gets spread by partners and the extent to which partners view view associates as working for them vs. working for the firms. True lockstep firms include Wachtell, Cleary, and Debevoise. Neither STB nor DPW is true lockstep. But I don't believe either is true eat what you kill craziness.

I think this post is accurate, although it's Cravath, not Wachtell, that is strict lockstep. Both Wachtell and DPW are slightly modified lockstep where a small handful of partners are paid differently, though virtually all are paid within a narrow band of compensation. Also agree that while STB is not lockstep like the others, it's also not "eat what you kill craziness" like K&E.

[JamMasterJ]

Sounds like you like Simpson more and they're culturally different enough that if you fit there, you probably fit there much better than you fit DPW. And if you have a remotely strong interest in real estate, it's not even close. Simpson is one of the top 2-3 RE firms

[Anonymous User]

OP here. Thank you all!!

Both firms emphasized that they were lockstep, and when I asked about them being modified, the associates at both firms told me they had no idea what I was asking about. Not sure how much it matters, but I am definitely going to reach out to the firms and ask about that and a few other questions you all sparked for me about Real Estate/rotations, etc. Thanks so much, this has been very helpful!

[Tiago Splitter]

OP here. Thank you all!!

Both firms emphasized that they were lockstep, and when I asked about them being modified, the associates at both firms told me they had no idea what I was asking about. Not sure how much it matters, but I am definitely going to reach out to the firms and ask about that and a few other questions you all sparked for me about Real Estate/rotations, etc. Thanks so much, this has been very helpful!

There's no need to delve further in to the lockstep question. Both of these firms are close enough to pure lockstep that any minor difference just isn't going to matter.

[Anonymous User]

OP here. Thank you all!!

Both firms emphasized that they were lockstep, and when I asked about them being modified, the associates at both firms told me they had no idea what I was asking about. Not sure how much it matters, but I am definitely going to reach out to the firms and ask about that and a few other questions you all sparked for me about Real Estate/rotations, etc. Thanks so much, this has been very helpful!

There's no need to delve further in to the lockstep question. Both of these firms are close enough to pure lockstep that any minor difference just isn't going to matter.

Agree with this. I work at one of these two firms and I doubt there's any appreciable difference. Ask about rotations, though. When I tell interviewees to call me with any questions, I mean it.

[Anonymous User]

I can testify that the STB system is such that no partner can possibly make more than 3.5x the lowest-paid partner, and it is 99% lockstep for the first ten years as partner (on rare occasions someone will have slightly accelerated pay increases, so not lockstep with their partner class but still within the same range of pay as other partners), with the possibility of slight modifications thereafter.

I don't know as much about DPW's system, but they have a similar ratio of highest-paid to lowest-paid partner. I believe 3.5x is the ratio even at the strict lockstep firms, so STB and DPW's variation is more about giving a few high performers a small acceleration to prevent them from defecting to an eat-what-you-kill firm rather than making guarantees to partners, having clients belong to specific partners, etc. It's worth pointing out that many STB and DPW partners could double or triple their pay by leaving for somewhere like K&E, but they choose not to.

[Anonymous User]

DPW assoc here: FWIW a friend at STB once admitted to me that DPW's cafeteria is better

[legends159]

It's worth pointing out that many STB and DPW partners could double or triple their pay by leaving for somewhere like K&E, but they choose not to.

Yeah right

Are they going to take those institutional clients with them? Oh wait, K&E already works with all the same institutional clients. Let's not pretend that if your statement were true that the partners wouldn't take it in a heartbeat.

[Tiago Splitter]

It's worth pointing out that many STB and DPW partners could double or triple their pay by leaving for somewhere like K&E, but they choose not to.

Yeah right

Are they going to take those institutional clients with them? Oh wait, K&E already works with all the same institutional clients. Let's not pretend that if your statement were true that the partners wouldn't take it in a heartbeat.

To be fair a couple Simpson partners have left for more money at Kirkland.

[jbagelboy]

It's worth pointing out that many STB and DPW partners could double or triple their pay by leaving for somewhere like K&E, but they choose not to.

Yeah right

Are they going to take those institutional clients with them? Oh wait, K&E already works with all the same institutional clients. Let's not pretend that if your statement were true that the partners wouldn't take it in a heartbeat.

To be fair a couple Simpson partners have left for more money at Kirkland.

It's patently false that they would make two to three times as much. Maybe like 1.3x.

[itbdvorm]

Identical firms by and large. STB allows for 3 rotations while DPW only 2. You'll work across from each other on corporate deals all the time. STB leans towards representing PE clients while DPW more towards bank clients. They are both sophisticated clients but very demanding and unreasonable.

Not enough differences on a substantive level between the two so it doesn't matter which you pick. Maybe go with STB if you want to do more rotations as that can give you more exposure.

Edit: why do you want to do a small group? I usually found those people have it worst as they mostly work for the bigger groups (unless your partner can generate their own business). What this means is that you're on a ton of deals with little visibility and under constant fire drills. When the clients shit on the big group, they in turn sit on it until they can look at it then farm some of the shit out to the little groups. By the time the little group gets it there's a short turnaround time. It's not like the little group partner can say to the big group partner to do better next time since the latter feeds the former. Thus the associates get the worst end of it.

On the flip side, I think little groups bill fewer hours but theres more unpredictability.

+1 - lots of similarity between these two (and really hard to give any good advice since not much specifics re: what you want to do). if you end up in a small group at STB you'll be doing more support work for M&A/PE, if at DPW more support work for capital markets. otherwise...very similar

[Anonymous User]

It's worth pointing out that many STB and DPW partners could double or triple their pay by leaving for somewhere like K&E, but they choose not to.

Yeah right

Are they going to take those institutional clients with them? Oh wait, K&E already works with all the same institutional clients. Let's not pretend that if your statement were true that the partners wouldn't take it in a heartbeat.

Wait, what? There's a CSM partner who lateraled to KE NY 3-4 years ago that's easily making 3x what he was making at CSM. Also, KE does not have the command over historic institutional clients like the other, older white shoe shops especially in the public m&a space . . .

[legends159]

It's worth pointing out that many STB and DPW partners could double or triple their pay by leaving for somewhere like K&E, but they choose not to.

Yeah right

Are they going to take those institutional clients with them? Oh wait, K&E already works with all the same institutional clients. Let's not pretend that if your statement were true that the partners wouldn't take it in a heartbeat.

Wait, what? There's a CSM partner who lateraled to KE NY 3-4 years ago that's easily making 3x what he was making at CSM. Also, KE does not have the command over historic institutional clients like the other, older white shoe shops especially in the public m&a space . . .

I don't disagree there's a few rare partners that can make much more money at a different firm but choose to stay (though I'm sure they're being well compensated in other ways - not the least of which is their standing and role in the firm/pensions etc.).

The post I was responding to said there were "many" and the word choice was used to imply that somehow STB/DPW partners were worth more than K&E partners - which is simply untrue unless you're referring to K&E's 6th year associate partners.