T6 JD --> Investment Banking Associate taking Questions Forum

[Banking_Juan]

I've been meaning to do this for a while and the last few weeks have been pretty slow. For background, I worked for a few years a paralegal at a V10 in NYC before law school at a T6. Spent my 1L summer in regional biglaw at a firm and 2L summer at BB investment bank in NYC (Where I'm at now). I've been here for about two years and am an associate in an industry coverage team. Feel free to ask me anything

[Anonymous User]

What was the hiring process like? Salary? How does career/comp progression work?

[Anonymous User]

What made you want to do banking? How common is it for banks to hire entry-level associates outside of their summer program?

[Anonymous User]

I've heard things about the career progression being bizarre for JD investment bankers without prior finance experience, in the sense that you don't have 4+ years of financial modeling experience already as an associate. Is that true?

What did you find most difficult about the transition?

Do you see yourself exiting the investment bank at any point in time, and if yes, where would you move to? Where have you seen other people move to?

Thanks for this!

[Anonymous User]

Does it matter that you were at a T6? I am at a T14 and am thinking about banking. If it matters, I went to a target school for undergrad. How difficult will it be to get an interview at a BB?

[Anonymous User]

What is the interview process like? As a JD are you peppered with finance questions to prove your knowledge or is it a chill laidback process like biglaw is?

[2014]

How much do you make (base and bonus)?
How's your job security and promotion potential?
Are most of your JD peers straight out of law school or did many do a big law stint?

[Anonymous User]

Bump.

Did you go through OCI? Or contact a recruiter/website? Most of these banks get thousands of applications online so I feel like you need to have a contact.

[cookiejar1]

Let's get an hours comparison between BB IBD associates and V5 public M&A juniors

[t-14orbust]

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[Mack.Hambleton]

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[Banking_Juan]

Here goes - I'll answer the questions that are repeated where they're most relevant.

What was the hiring process like? Salary? How does career/comp progression work?

The overall process is similar to the biglaw OCI process (except at the business school), with a bunch of banks coming on campus for screeners and inviting you back to the office for callbacks/superdays. The interviews were much more intense than biglaw interviews, with a lot of technical finance questions and brainteasers. In general the process was much more selective because there are just fewer positions open than in biglaw, with the biggest banks only hiring ~50 associates annually. Work experience is also very important - I honestly don't think a k/jd has a shot at all because you're competing against people that have 3+ years of experience and the maturity that comes with it. It's not so much the technical skills that matter so much as the management ability and people skills that come from legitimate full time employment. You have to be able to both manage the VP/MD above you that are making inane requests on absurd timelines and the analysts below you, who are constantly turning in busted work and/or getting crushed on other projects.

Salary at the BBs for stub-year associates (first ~6 months) is $125k, with a $30-$40k stub bonus (varies by bank, but flat across the associate class at each bank). Starting in January, you make $150k base. Base salary increases in $25k increments each year for associates, so by the time you hit your third year, you're making $200k base. Bonuses are much more variable and depend on the overall market, your firm's performance, your group's performance and your own performance. Unlike biglaw where there'll be flat bonuses that are communicated via email to the firm, compensation is very personal and you'll be told one on one what your number is. To give you a rough range, bonuses after the first full year in my group were $75-$125k (although there may be some that made more or less that I haven't heard of). After a certain level (usually VP), you start getting either deferred or non-cash compensation (that usually vests over 3 years)

There's a set progression between titles, generally three years for each. Associate -> VP is pretty much automatic unless you're terrible. VP is generally where the culling happens, with a few people being asked to leave every year and another few being told they won't make it to director. At director you exist in a sort of limbo for three or so years until you can prove that you can bring in a decent amount of business. Even at MD they look at the revenue you generate annually and if you have a couple of bad years in a row you're shown the door.

What made you want to do banking? How common is it for banks to hire entry-level associates outside of their summer program?

I've always been interested in finance and deals, so I naturally gravitated toward corporate work during my 1L SA. When I was recruiting for 2L summer, I just got the sense that the bankers were closer to the actual businesses during an M&A deal and that it aligned a lot more with my interests.

It's very uncommon for banks to hire outside of their summer programs. I'd say that 90% of their class is filled with their own summer associates and they will generally only consider candidates that summered at other banks for FT OCI. I've seen lawyers lateral in at various levels before, but it's almost always a 1-off thing and I haven't seen any patterns.

I've heard things about the career progression being bizarre for JD investment bankers without prior finance experience, in the sense that you don't have 4+ years of financial modeling experience already as an associate. Is that true?

What did you find most difficult about the transition?

Do you see yourself exiting the investment bank at any point in time, and if yes, where would you move to? Where have you seen other people move to?

Thanks for this!

At my group at least (and I believe this is the case with most BBs) all incoming associates will follow the same progression. Most people that come in as associates don't have prior finance experience (I've seen everything from former consultants to former architects). You learn what you need to on the job.

Toughest thing for me was just getting up to speed my first few weeks. As an associate you're pretty much independent from the beginning and you're expected to figure things out on your own. It's nothing you can really prepare for, it just gets better as your get more experience.

I'm honestly not sure what my plans are later on (this is true for the other associates in my class as well). There's isn't as much of a defined path as there is in biglaw following banking and you generally just have to hustle and find something on your own. PE/Hedge Funds are pretty much closed to associates, although certain opportunities may come up and you have to be proactive in capturing them. A lot of exit opps start to materialize when you reach the VP level and you a) prove that you have a developed skillset and b) have much more client contact. Most people that I've seen leave end up in the business development (internal M&A, corporate strategy) groups of clients, although I've seen people rarely make it to PE or other buyside opportunities. People will also occasionally go to other banks, although this is much more common at the MD level (and very difficult at the VP level for a variety of reasons).

Does it matter that you were at a T6? I am at a T14 and am thinking about banking. If it matters, I went to a target school for undergrad. How difficult will it be to get an interview at a BB?

T6 doesn't matter, you just want to be at a decent school with a good business school that the banks recruit at. Duke, Northwestern and Michigan are all examples where the quality of the business school makes banking attainable. If you're actively networking and showing interest with the campus recruiting teams at the banks, you have a decent shot at landing a first round interview.

What is the interview process like? As a JD are you peppered with finance questions to prove your knowledge or is it a chill laidback process like biglaw is?

Unlike biglaw interviews, you have to very on top of your game for banking interviews. Expect quite a few technical questions (accounting mechanics, valuation, M&A, general macroeconomics) in all of your interviews. Fit is still an important part too, but you need to nail your technicals to get the job

How much do you make (base and bonus)?
How's your job security and promotion potential?
Are most of your JD peers straight out of law school or did many do a big law stint?

Job security as an associate is pretty good - I've only heard of people getting laid off in the worst of times and in normal years you should be able to make it to VP if you're not terrible (Comp is another story - one of the reasons they can keep associates around is because they can cut bonuses as much as they want in bad years / for crappy associates).

I actually only work with on other JD, who lateraled over as an MD after spending some years as a biglaw partner. There just aren't enough JDs in banking to draw a conclusion but I would say that most JDs either come over at very junior or very senior levels, with very few lateraling over at the mid levels.

Bump.

Did you go through OCI? Or contact a recruiter/website? Most of these banks get thousands of applications online so I feel like you need to have a contact.

I would visit the networking events / info sessions that each bank would have at the business school. I'd make it a point to have conversations with a few people (normal conversations, not awkward, stilted networking speak) and ask for their business cards afterward. Then I'd email some of the people I thought I connected particularly well with and ask to get coffee or to chat over the phone where I'd ask some more questions and let them know I was interested in recruiting with them. I was able to get first round interviews or phone screens at every firm I spoke with this way. The key is to be genuine and not to come off as a striver or someone who's after banking just for the prestige or pay. Ask real questions, not canned networking questions and try to have genuine conversations. It's very, very difficult to get interviews just through recruiters or websites - you need to supplement with real networking.

Let's get an hours comparison between BB IBD associates and V5 public M&A juniors

Just from speaking with my friends at V5s, my hours in banking are definitely worse. I'm sure you guys all know that there's no typical day in either banking or biglaw, but I'm consistently in the office later than my biglaw buddies and I'm in on more weekends as well. On the flip side, I'm also paid better and, IMO, the work's more interesting. I think one of the biggest reasons why banking is worse than biglaw in terms of hours is the constant pitching and new business development. I probably spend half my time working on live deals where we actually make money and the other half putting together books full of half-baked ideas that my MD wants to show to some mid level BD guy at a client we barely know. As you would expect, those meetings usually go nowhere and eat up a ton of time.