Cleary v. Davis Polk v. Skadden Forum

[Anonymous User]

Please help. In NY, definitely want transaction/corporate work. Right now think I'm interested in Funds, M&A and Capital Markets. Having really hard time choosing. Ultimate goal likely in house.

Is Skadden really that much tougher than the others? Can Davis Polk really be that "nice and polite" or is that all recruitment BS? Is Cleary a good option if you are not interested in going international? halp.

[Anonymous User]

Good for you.

[cookiejar1]

Go with fit.

[Anonymous User]

Can you really get a good sense of fit from five 30 minute interviews and then 2nd looks with people trying to convince you to join?

[thesealocust]

Can you really get a good sense of fit from five 30 minute interviews and then 2nd looks with people trying to convince you to join?

...what other choice do you have?

"Which nearly identical giant law firm in NYC should I choose" is a common 'problem' for students to have this time of year, but absent information about your personal preferences, there's not much to say. They're all great firms, and your personal impression about the firms and how you'd fit in will matter much more than what strangers on the internet think.

It bears repeating: there are only so many different law firms because of conflicts of interest rules. That's why there are like 4 big accounting firms but dozens of big law firms. These firms generally wind up on the same deals, with the same clients, after hiring from the same group of law students. They pay the same salary, have offices in the same places, give the same bonuses, and have the same benefits.

If you're having trouble choosing, it's realistically because there's not a lot of difference. At least that you can see from the outside looking in. Even once you've started, the partners and senior associates you work for will determine your life, and there's little you can do to influence that years before you even start at the job.

[Anonymous User]

It's a hard choice and I just want as much information as possible when making it, which include the opinions of strangers online. I'm not saying this poll will make the decision for me but I appreciate any insight into the differences between the firms that people may know that I don't and couldn't find out on my own.

[Tiago Splitter]

Location is as good a reason as any to pick one of these firms. If you have any idea where you might want to live let that be the tiebreaker.

[Anonymous User]

You've hit on at least of the differences. (Cleary is bigger internationally, especially in Europe.) If you have no particular interest in working in Europe, though, that's pretty much irrelevant. Similarly, Skadden's brand is stronger in smaller US markets where they are often the only one of the top corporate firms with an office. However, again, if you have no particular interest in moving to a mid-size city, that's also pretty much irrelevant.

Skadden's culture is more fratty, which could be good or bad depending on who you are. Cleary has free-market assigning while DPW has centralized staffing, but that makes a lot less difference in firms with lockstep bonuses.

I'd say the clearest distinction is Skadden as compared to the other two (a lot more late-night drinking with co-workers and that sort of culture), but DPW and Cleary are hard to distinguish, and you may prefer Skadden over either.

If you think you might prefer living in Brooklyn or Jersey City/Hoboken than Manhattan, Cleary's downtown location may actually be a significant factor in choosing it over DPW (Midtown East) or Skadden (Midtown West, soon to be Penn Station area). The opposite if you want to live in the suburbs in New Jersey or Long Island (Skadden) or Westchester (DPW). For Manhattan residents, it's going to be a wash if you're in the Village but an advantage for the Midtown firms if you're on the UES (DPW) or UWS (Skadden) or further uptown.

Funds is basically nonexistent at any of these firms, btw. K&E, Deb and (especially) STB are the top firms with large funds practices (at least for PE--hedge funds is dominated by Schulte, registered funds fairly evenly spread across firms but a particularly snore-inducing practice area). M&A and Cap Markets are universal.

[bearsfan23]

As others have said far better than I can, these are very similar firms.

If the "tiebreaker" for you ends up being location, DPW is the easy choice, especially if you're single.

Skadden's office is in the middle of nowhere, and good luck getting laid if you have to compete with the bankers by Cleary in Lower Manhattan.

Midtown East is probably as good as it gets (location-wise) for NYC Biglaw

[Anonymous User]

It's a hard choice and I just want as much information as possible when making it, which include the opinions of strangers online. I'm not saying this poll will make the decision for me but I appreciate any insight into the differences between the firms that people may know that I don't and couldn't find out on my own.

As noted above, it's hard to give any meaningful advice for firms at this level besides generalizations. I actually had similar options and chose based on doing second looks, talking to people I knew/trusted at the firms, and personality fit based on impressions. Without much of an international interest, I'd personally choose Skadden or DPW due to their wide breadth of top corporate practices - in particular M&A for Skadden and Cap Markets/Finance for DPW. But Cleary is an excellent firm all-around so if u like them u can't go wrong either. Their cultures are generally known to be different as mentioned above. Location wasn't as important to me but maybe that matters more for u.

[Anonymous User]

In terms of prestige, I would go with Skadden. BUT Davis Polk is a great firm, and I heard people at Skadden are not as nice. I wouldn't choose Cleary just because it's lower ranked but that's just my opinion.

[Anonymous User]

I was in a similar position just last year. On my Skadden interview, one of the tour guides (yes, the ones in the red jackets) told me that they were moving out of Times Square to a smaller building soon and basically trash talked the firm. I also thought I wanted to do a white-collar heavy litigation practice, but wasn't so committed to it to be involved in a separate white collar group (as Skadden has). Additionally, if you want NYC to be livable (in my opinion), one needs to avoid Times Square like the plague-filled underbelly of the world that it is. All these things struck Skadden for me.

Then to determine the difference between DPW and Cleary. This was splitting hairs. It came down to a few things: (1) I didn't want to work in the Financial District right next to One World Trade Center. Midtown is hella easy to get to from Queens, Brooklyn, Upstate, and anything on the East Side. (2) Cleary had just lost a bet-the-company litigation case (and I thought I wanted to do litigation). (3) A Cleary partner had recently committed suicide by jumping off the building (very sad and disheartening and could have happened anywhere, but still gave me a bad vibe). (4) DPW had just had one of its most profitable years in history. (5) The Cleary folks seemed just a bit more nerdy, but just slightly.

I don't know that you could go wrong with any of your choices. Go to the one that you felt you fit in most.

[Anonymous User]

In terms of prestige, I would go with Skadden. BUT Davis Polk is a great firm, and I heard people at Skadden are not as nice. I wouldn't choose Cleary just because it's lower ranked but that's just my opinion.

You're an idiot. And just in case anyone thinks this is serious, Skadden is probably the least prestigious of these firms in NYC. Pretty much anyone at the other two firms could have gone to Skadden had they wanted to. The reverse is hardly true.

[Anonymous User]

In terms of prestige, I would go with Skadden. BUT Davis Polk is a great firm, and I heard people at Skadden are not as nice. I wouldn't choose Cleary just because it's lower ranked but that's just my opinion.

You're an idiot. And just in case anyone thinks this is serious, Skadden is probably the least prestigious of these firms in NYC. Pretty much anyone at the other two firms could have gone to Skadden had they wanted to. The reverse is hardly true.

The first quoted post was bad but the second one was just as pointless and not true. OP - talk to people you know at these firms and meet as many people as you can. Think about practice groups, rotation system, location, fit etc. Make your decision based on those. I know the decision isn't easy but these really are not helping you.

[dixiecupdrinking]

If you care about location, Skadden is moving to Hudson Yards in a few years. I think next years SAs would be like 2nd/3rd year associates when it happens, so whatever on the one hand, but that commute is going to SUCK.

[Anonymous User]

Then to determine the difference between DPW and Cleary. This was splitting hairs. It came down to a few things: (1) I didn't want to work in the Financial District right next to One World Trade Center. Midtown is hella easy to get to from Queens, Brooklyn, Upstate, and anything on the East Side. (2) Cleary had just lost a bet-the-company litigation case (and I thought I wanted to do litigation). (3) A Cleary partner had recently committed suicide by jumping off the building (very sad and disheartening and could have happened anywhere, but still gave me a bad vibe). (4) DPW had just had one of its most profitable years in history. (5) The Cleary folks seemed just a bit more nerdy, but just slightly.

Agree it is splitting hairs, but your reasons are a bit odd. Downtown is much easier to get to from most of Brooklyn (its a wash from Williamsburg) -- agree on Queens and Upstate. No idea what you are talking about regarding a Cleary partner suicide -- seems apocryphal. Do you have backup? Also, all of these firms have had their most profitable years in history recently -- it has been a boom time.

[Anonymous User]

You're an idiot. And just in case anyone thinks this is serious, Skadden is probably the least prestigious of these firms in NYC. Pretty much anyone at the other two firms could have gone to Skadden had they wanted to. The reverse is hardly true.

This is just incorrect. At least at my school, Skadden made far fewer offers than DPW or CGSH w/ roughly similar amount of CBs.

[VulcanVulcanVulcan]

In terms of prestige, I would go with Skadden. BUT Davis Polk is a great firm, and I heard people at Skadden are not as nice. I wouldn't choose Cleary just because it's lower ranked but that's just my opinion.

You're an idiot. And just in case anyone thinks this is serious, Skadden is probably the least prestigious of these firms in NYC. Pretty much anyone at the other two firms could have gone to Skadden had they wanted to. The reverse is hardly true.

LOL I'll never get tired of these V10 clusterfuck threads when people proclaim and clear and untrammeled superiority of one firm over another when really, they're all pretty much the same.

[2014]

If you care about location, Skadden is moving to Hudson Yards in a few years. I think next years SAs would be like 2nd/3rd year associates when it happens, so whatever on the one hand, but that commute is going to SUCK.

Shouldn't the 7 be extended out by then? Not ideal but one transfer at grand central or Times Square makes the whole island pretty feasible.

[Anonymous User]

I'm considering skadden (and am also new to nyc) and have their location as a positive for that reason (that like every line stops in times square/bryant). Is that not a good way to look at it?

[Nekrowizard]

I'm considering skadden (and am also new to nyc) and have their location as a positive for that reason (that like every line stops in times square/bryant). Is that not a good way to look at it?

Times Square isn't, uh, that bad. You can also avoid it by taking the BDFM to Bryant. Also, since you'll probably still be there when they move to Hudson Yards, you have to consider that.

[Anonymous User]

Speaking as a Skadden NY associate, the Times Square location isn't ideal from the perspective of foot traffic, but honestly it's a fantastic location in terms of the flexibility it gives you on where to live (because getting to Times Square is super easy from pretty much anywhere in the tri-state area--all the main subway lines stop there, Port Authority is a block away, Penn station is close). There are associates in all five boroughs plus a handful in NJ. The move to Hudson Yards in 2020 will be better for folks in Downtown/Brooklyn/NJ (and significantly better for folks commuting by train to Penn) and slightly worse for folks in UWS/UES or Queens.

[Anonymous User]

You're an idiot. And just in case anyone thinks this is serious, Skadden is probably the least prestigious of these firms in NYC. Pretty much anyone at the other two firms could have gone to Skadden had they wanted to. The reverse is hardly true.

This is just incorrect. At least at my school, Skadden made far fewer offers than DPW or CGSH w/ roughly similar amount of CBs.

This is surprising. What % of offers did they make? Davis Polk traditionally has the lowest CB->offer ratio. They call more people back than some peers like S&C/Skadden but offer less of the people brought in.

At any T6, Skadden will be the easiest firm of this type (CSM, DPW, S&C, STB, Cleary) to land an offer at from a grades perspective. It might become significantly more competitive for lower T14 schools, I'm not sure about that. Either way, the quoted anon's statement isn't technically incorrect IME - although it is irrelevant. There are definitely more important reasons for choosing Skadden than comparative selectivity or vault or any other aspie bullshit.

[Anonymous User]

You're an idiot. And just in case anyone thinks this is serious, Skadden is probably the least prestigious of these firms in NYC. Pretty much anyone at the other two firms could have gone to Skadden had they wanted to. The reverse is hardly true.

This is just incorrect. At least at my school, Skadden made far fewer offers than DPW or CGSH w/ roughly similar amount of CBs.

This is surprising. What % of offers did they make? Davis Polk traditionally has the lowest CB->offer ratio. They call more people back than some peers like S&C/Skadden but offer less of the people brought in.

At any T6, Skadden will be the easiest firm of this type (CSM, DPW, S&C, STB, Cleary) to land an offer at from a grades perspective. It might become significantly more competitive for lower T14 schools, I'm not sure about that. Either way, the quoted anon's statement isn't technically incorrect IME - although it is irrelevant. There are definitely more important reasons for choosing Skadden than comparative selectivity or vault or any other aspie bullshit.

My impression is that Skadden is more fit conscious than its peers i.e. rejecting those with good grades and more willing to offer those without honors, at least at my T6. Last year's data suggests similar grade selectivity for Skadden, Cleary and DPW - but I believe DPW is marginally higher previous years. I think S&C and CSM have stricter/higher grade cutoffs. None of this should matter at all once offers are on the table.

[Anonymous User]

They're all the same hence this deadlock poll result. Just go with your gut.