DOJ Honors OCI Strategy Forum

[Anonymous User]

Hi All-- at a top 10 school, law review, top 10% or so, have a district court clerkship in a major city lined up for post-law school. Rising 2L interested in DOJ honors-- preferably as an AUSA in a big city.

Heard conflicting things about what will best help with DOJ honors. Going to try and get a COA clerkship after my DC clerkship, but wondering what matters specifically for OCI. Should I try and target the city I want to live in, or should I try and just pick a big name firm, since that will look better? For example, if I have a Skadden NY offer, but it's not for the city I want, but there is a lesser option, like a Ropes Boston or a Paul Hastings DC-- two firms that are great in their markets, but I get the sense don't have the name recognition as a Skadden-type-- which should I choose? (These are all hypotheticals, but firms I have callbacks from.) Also looking to try and split the summer with DOJ, FWIW.

Looking to help a COA clerkship app / DOJ Honors / Future AUSA application. Any thoughts would be appreciated!

[Anonymous User]

I'm not 100% sure of your question. You already have a clerkship lined up, so is your plan to do the honors program after? Or are you talking about SLIP?? If you are, I'm pretty sure you can't split your summer. If you're talking about post-grad employment, you can't do the honors program unless you're a "recent graduate" and I think firm work would disqualify you.

[zot1]

I'm not 100% sure of your question. You already have a clerkship lined up, so is your plan to do the honors program after? Or are you talking about SLIP?? If you are, I'm pretty sure you can't split your summer. If you're talking about post-grad employment, you can't do the honors program unless you're a "recent graduate" and I think firm work would disqualify you.

So you can get into the honors program as a former clerk but definitely not as a former firm associate.

I too am confused by your question. If you want honors program post-clerkship, you wouldn't be applying right now but the fall when you begin your clerkship (as if you were a 3L).

[A. Nony Mouse]

I think they're asking what kind of firm they should target for 2L summer that would look best when applying for DOJ honors down the line after their COA clerkship.

I don't think the kind of prestige differences you're parsing really matter much for the Honors program - there are probably components where having done a 2L SA looks good, but there are other components where your government work experience will be much more pertinent, so you need to think about which part of DOJ you want to work for. And for the components that like people to have worked for a firm, you will be better off working with people who know people in the component where you want to work than choosing prestige in a vacuum.

Same for AUSA - my understanding (though anecdotal) is that SDNY/EDNY do hire mostly out of biglaw, but that working with people who have connections to those offices is much more valuable than working at a firm with slightly more "recognition" than another. In other parts of the country, a biglaw background may be much less common, but connections are again going to be important.

So, a NYC firm might well be better if there are more people with connections to offices where you want to work in the future, but not for its prestige per se. Personally I'd just go with what makes you happiest for the time you'll be there. What you do while you're there will matter more than where you do it, too.

(Caveat: I don't have all the patience in the world with trying to assess fine differences in prestige levels of firms at the top of the top/working at those firms in different cities.)

[Nebby]

All the honors attorneys I've met did government 2L summer.*

*I've only met six, and they're in a division that's notorious for wanting demonstrated commitment to public service.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Yeah, I think this is probably most common. I would imagine there are people who split and people who do firms, especially in some of the Civil division sections. But government service is generally huge.

[Anonymous User]

Not OP--

so you can't do DOJ honors post-clerkship if you've ever been an associate? e.g. graduate c/o 2015, work at big firm X till clerkship term starts in 2016, end clerkship and start DOJ 2017? (But you could if you just did back-to-back clerkships instead?). What type of government positions could someone in the former scenario apply to?

with many if not most students taking clerkships now a year or two out from graduation, it seems this model would have to adjust.

[Nebby]

Not OP--

so you can't do DOJ honors post-clerkship if you've ever been an associate? e.g. graduate c/o 2015, work at big firm X till clerkship term starts in 2016, end clerkship and start DOJ 2017?

with many if not most students taking clerkships now a year or two out from graduation, it seems this model would have to adjust.

Why? There's still way more qualified candidates then there are positions.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Not OP--

so you can't do DOJ honors post-clerkship if you've ever been an associate? e.g. graduate c/o 2015, work at big firm X till clerkship term starts in 2016, end clerkship and start DOJ 2017? (But you could if you just did back-to-back clerkships instead?). What type of government positions could someone in the former scenario apply to?

with many if not most students taking clerkships now a year or two out from graduation, it seems this model would have to adjust.

This is right - you can clerk or do a qualifying fellowship or a graduate program, but you can't work as an associate and then clerk and then do Honors. The idea is that Honors is an entry-level program for new lawyers, and that once you've been practicing, you're not a new lawyer, you're a lateral hire. So you can apply to openings in DOJ and other agencies (if you sign up for alerts on USAJobs you will see there are regular openings, although more in some divisions than others), you just can't do it through the honors program.

I don't think there's any need for the program to adjust because you still have thousands of people applying for very few positions. Civil has 30 openings this year and that's way more than they've had for the last 3-4 years; most others are 12 or fewer. (EOIR with 95 is an anomaly because most of their positions are 2-year clerkships with IJs, not permanent positions - you have to apply again when your position is up. I'm also pretty sure most people going for EOIR are not people with biglaw ambitions.) I also don't think we're at the point where most students are taking clerkships a year or two out - plenty of people do this, but I don't think it's yet a majority.

There's also a cap on how far out you can be from graduation - I think it's 3 years, but the language is sort of bureaucratese. So you could do a 2 years DCt clerkship and a 1 year COA, but you can't clerk for more than 3 years and retain eligibility (I think because then you look like a career clerk, which again means you're not really entry level).

[zot1]

All the honors attorneys I've met did government 2L summer.*

*I've only met six, and they're in a division that's notorious for wanting demonstrated commitment to public service.

Although not DOJ I'll add myself to this list. During my honors programs interviews I was heavily drilled on all the government positions I had and why I had them. I was also drilled on some private work I had listed, but thankfully, it was relevant to the practice area so I could just say I took the experience to learn more about the specific practice area and it further reassured me I belonged in government work.

So that is definitely something to be wary of.

[Anonymous User]

Going back to this:

Rising 2L interested in DOJ honors-- preferably as an AUSA in a big city.

Just wanted to point out that there are very few USAO positions through the Honors program - there seem to be fewer this year, too, perhaps in part because the hiring freeze of a couple of years ago is gone, so the USAOs can hire experienced attorneys again. And some USAOs very much value ties. Which isn't to say the OP shouldn't go for it, just that going for one of these jobs maybe shouldn't be the governing principle behind OCI choices.

[zot1]

Going back to this:

Rising 2L interested in DOJ honors-- preferably as an AUSA in a big city.

Just wanted to point out that there are very few USAO positions through the Honors program - there seem to be fewer this year, too, perhaps in part because the hiring freeze of a couple of years ago is gone, so the USAOs can hire experienced attorneys again. And some USAOs very much value ties. Which isn't to say the OP shouldn't go for it, just that going for one of these jobs maybe shouldn't be the governing principle behind OCI choices.

This is true. I think a firm with litigation needs might be better since that's what AUSAs do...