Crazy To Turn Down Cravath? Forum

[Anonymous User]

Hey all, I was fortunate to have received an offer from Cravath yesterday, but was wondering if I would be crazy (read: stupid) to turn it down.

I have other V20 offers, but I haven't interviewed with any V10 firms (but it's a little late in the game to mass mail-then again, are they very different then cravath?)

In today's day and age (and market) would I be doing myself a disservice by taking the offer and running? I was just afraid of the general atmosphere of the place (I get I'll be working insane hours elsewhere)

Any advice?

Thanks!!

[smaug]

Depends on what your other offers are. There are good reasons to avoid Cravath. There are good reasons to choose Cravath.

[Anonymous User]

Hey all, I was fortunate to have received an offer from Cravath yesterday, but was wondering if I would be crazy (read: stupid) to turn it down.

I have other V20 offers, but I haven't interviewed with any V10 firms (but it's a little late in the game to mass mail-then again, are they very different then cravath?)

In today's day and age (and market) would I be doing myself a disservice by taking the offer and running? I was just afraid of the general atmosphere of the place (I get I'll be working insane hours elsewhere)

Any advice?

Thanks!!

It's a personality thing, I'd say. Don't just think about the long hours. Think about the system they use that pushes you out if you aren't constantly moving upward. Think about all of the Type A personalities that attracts.

Think of all the most aggressive people at your law school. Chances are, they'll be the only people you work with your entire time there.

Of course, I only know three people from Cravath, and they're three of the most genuinely nice people I know, so I could be full of crap.

[Anonymous User]

I don't think the atmosphere is any more "toxic" than any other large NYC firm. The people (for the most part) are friendly, and there aren't really screamers or anything like that.

Plenty of good reasons to have a better fit at another firm. But if you just want exposure to corporate work, without a specifc preference for what, you can't really go wrong at CSM.

[kaiser]

Hey all, I was fortunate to have received an offer from Cravath yesterday, but was wondering if I would be crazy (read: stupid) to turn it down.

I have other V20 offers, but I haven't interviewed with any V10 firms (but it's a little late in the game to mass mail-then again, are they very different then cravath?)

In today's day and age (and market) would I be doing myself a disservice by taking the offer and running? I was just afraid of the general atmosphere of the place (I get I'll be working insane hours elsewhere)

Any advice?

Thanks!!

I know multiple people who turned down offers from Cravath, instead taking offers with lower ranked and less prestigious (though still excellent) firms. You need to approach this whole thing by defining your own personal goals. Only then can you determine the proper means to reach them. The worst thing you can do is blindly run some rat race to chase down some "prize" that you don't really understand why you are chasing. In a sense, this is what law school is. A bunch of rats blindly running a race, and only chasing after certain things because everyone else is chasing after them. Too few people ever stop to say "what is best for me?" So my advice is to think about what you want, and what your goals are. If going to Cravath is the best way of reaching those goals, then go with Cravath. But if some other place is a better fit for you, and will better help you reach your long term goals, then who gives a damn what other people would pick?

[Anonymous User]

Lots of people turn down cravath, but admittedly usually for peer firms in new york (S&C/DPW/STB), top firms in other markets, or boutiques. If you're in litigation, there are many other great options, including firms in the V20 and beyond, that could make more sense for your personality and career path. If you're looking for traditional transactional work, the field of strong alternatives narrows to peer firms in the city, like the above mentioned three and a handful of others. It would not be objectively wise for a career in public M&A to take, e.g., Gibson or Jones Day or White & Case over Cravath. Could you provide a little more detail?

[thesealocust]

I'd say the primary difference between Cravath and any other major (not just "v5" or "v10") firm in New York is a near certainty you'll be worked to death instead of just a very high likelihood. The people at [less "prestigious" firm of your choice here] still regularly work utterly unreasonable and unpredictable hours, and are often working on the same deals anyway. So if you like the vibe at Cravath, go for it, and if you prefer it at [good firm that isn't Cravath], that's cool too - as long as the firm/group seem to be in stable financial health.

[Anonymous User]

Also, exit opportunities. Cravath, as does its peers, opens a hell of a lot of doors. Of course if you have your heart set on something extremely specific in the future then going to Cravath wouldn't help as it'll be opening doors that you'll never walk through.

[Anonymous User]

I'd say the primary difference between Cravath and any other major (not just "v5" or "v10") firm in New York is a near certainty you'll be worked to death instead of just a very high likelihood.

Why do you think the workload is any different at Cravath than at DPW or any other V5 or V10 firm?

[legends159]

I'd say the primary difference between Cravath and any other major (not just "v5" or "v10") firm in New York is a near certainty you'll be worked to death instead of just a very high likelihood.

Why do you think the workload is any different at Cravath than at DPW or any other V5 or V10 firm?

They have fewer attorneys so everyone works more. Their partners are also paid more so you gotta generate those PPP from somewhere. Finally the rotation system means there's no hiding - XYZ partner owns your ass for 18 months so you can't duck and hide some staffing coordinator.

[Anonymous User]

Thanks for all the helpful responses!

OP here, my dream job would be in-house for the NBA or NFL, and I assume getting a job there is such a rarity, my only shot would be to go to a "legendary" firm (also Adam Silver was an associate at Cravath..just saying..)

Also, the consensus I'm getting is that I'll be worked to death anywhere...so..i guess is there really much of a difference? I get the rotation system means I'm a slave for 18months, but its not like I can hide from a staffing cooordinator my whole life and leave everyday at 7.

Does this basically mean I'm getting the Cravath name, for a firm where I'll work the same amount as other firms, but just might get a stapler or two thrown at my head?

[thesealocust]

I'd say the primary difference between Cravath and any other major (not just "v5" or "v10") firm in New York is a near certainty you'll be worked to death instead of just a very high likelihood.

Why do you think the workload is any different at Cravath than at DPW or any other V5 or V10 firm?

(1) Personal experience and experience of friends at these firms

(2) http://www.averyindex.com/longest_hours.php

(3) What legends159 said

(4) I worded what I wrote very carefully - it's not "herp derp cravath associates work harder," it's that having a totally crazy workload seem more consistent at Cravath whereas there may be some variation at [other gigantic law firm in NYC]. The whole point of describing it that way is to emphasize that even if "Cravath hours" are bad, plenty of people at [not Cravath] wind up working "Cravath hours."

[Anonymous User]

Hey man, maybe your experience wasn't indicative? Or you're buying into the hype?

Take this with a grain of salt because I just had my callback/offer on Thursday, but I was really impressed with the firm, everyone I saw was super nice (more so in fact then a few other firms I had CB's at) and with the exception of one person, everyone was very personable and conversational.

That's not to say you won't work hard, and there is definitely a vibe of traditionalism here, but I thought it was kind of cool...and while I'm not looking forward to working till my eyes bleed, I'm getting the sense that's what its like if you go the Biglaw route in NY...

That being said, I have yet to accept my offer, but hope this helped a little, and best of luck with your decision!!

[kaiser]

Thanks for all the helpful responses!

OP here, my dream job would be in-house for the NBA or NFL, and I assume getting a job there is such a rarity, my only shot would be to go to a "legendary" firm (also Adam Silver was an associate at Cravath..just saying..)

Also, the consensus I'm getting is that I'll be worked to death anywhere...so..i guess is there really much of a difference? I get the rotation system means I'm a slave for 18months, but its not like I can hide from a staffing cooordinator my whole life and leave everyday at 7.

Does this basically mean I'm getting the Cravath name, for a firm where I'll work the same amount as other firms, but just might get a stapler or two thrown at my head?

Both Gary Bettman and Daniel Stern worked at Proskauer as a prelude to their NHL / NBA careers. No firm has a better or more prestigious sports law practice. If you are interested in sports law, its a firm I would seriously consider.

[cookiejar1]

Hey man, maybe your experience wasn't indicative? Or you're buying into the hype?

Take this with a grain of salt because I just had my callback/offer on Thursday, but I was really impressed with the firm, everyone I saw was super nice (more so in fact then a few other firms I had CB's at) and with the exception of one person, everyone was very personable and conversational.

That's not to say you won't work hard, and there is definitely a vibe of traditionalism here, but I thought it was kind of cool...and while I'm not looking forward to working till my eyes bleed, I'm getting the sense that's what its like if you go the Biglaw route in NY...

That being said, I have yet to accept my offer, but hope this helped a little, and best of luck with your decision!!

Wait, what? Did you just accuse someone of buying into the hype and for sharing anecdotal experience and then turn around and share with us an anecdotal experience that bought into the hype?

[Anonymous User]

Thanks for all the helpful responses!

OP here, my dream job would be in-house for the NBA or NFL, and I assume getting a job there is such a rarity, my only shot would be to go to a "legendary" firm (also Adam Silver was an associate at Cravath..just saying..)

Also, the consensus I'm getting is that I'll be worked to death anywhere...so..i guess is there really much of a difference? I get the rotation system means I'm a slave for 18months, but its not like I can hide from a staffing cooordinator my whole life and leave everyday at 7.

Does this basically mean I'm getting the Cravath name, for a firm where I'll work the same amount as other firms, but just might get a stapler or two thrown at my head?

While I disagree that the differences between Cravath and other V5 firms are meaningful enough to deter someone from choosing Cravath on the basis of "hours worked," I think your decision rests more on traditional white shoe firm v. not. In that case, you're likely to see substantial differences in expectations of work product and your general willingness to work through a major holiday.

Haha, your dream job is a respectable one but one that's going to require an insane amount of networking to make reality. It's unlikely that you'll land an in-house position at what must probably be a tiny legal department (compared to some F500s) by just applying with your resume. You'll need to hustle - which will be true if you decided to work at other firms. The question you have to ask yourself is whether Cravath expands your network in a meaningful way.

Also, I would consider strongly the psychological toil of working Cravath-level hours. It's rough. If it's Cravath v. Lifestyle firm you really have to think carefully about this. However, I'm of the opinion that lifestyle firms don't really exist so . . . (don't tell me that they don't please I like to live in this fantasy)

[Anonymous User]

OP here, Kaiser and cookie jar thanks for the advice, but here was my thinking:

hardly ANYONE works sports law at Proskauer: its incredibly hard to break into and if you tell them you're interested that's basically an automatic ding. So even if I worked there, the chance that I'd get enough meaningful sports law work there is slim to none (from what I understand; have spoken with a bunch of attorneys there)

Unless you all think this logical process is faulty, by all means let me know, I'm just trying to sort through all this

[cookiejar1]

I think you're looking at this the wrong way. Focusing on exit opportunities is good (only a very few will stay at their first firm and make partner) but I'd personally focus on what you'd get out of your first 1-2 years at CSM v. other firm. Think about: training & development, working in a practice group that will open doors for you down the road, etc. Don't think about a career opportunity that will come up 10 years down the road. Use a shorter time frame. Just my 2 cents.

[Anonymous User]

"holding the bag" if you come from "a V40 like Proskauer"?! You do realize that Vault openly says on its website that the only thing it measures is prestige. ("This year, over 17,000 law associates rated law firms on a scale of 1 to 10 based on prestige").

You have not provided a single reason why Cravath could be the right fit *for you*.

[kaiser]

OP here, Kaiser and cookie jar thanks for the advice, but here was my thinking:

hardly ANYONE works sports law at Proskauer: its incredibly hard to break into and if you tell them you're interested that's basically an automatic ding. So even if I worked there, the chance that I'd get enough meaningful sports law work there is slim to none (from what I understand; have spoken with a bunch of attorneys there)

Secondly, like you guys said, the chance of getting that job is very slim; so I'm just not sure its worth taking the risk working at Proskauer, even assuming I somehow land the sports law gig (again unlikely) if I can't break into the NBA or NFL. Then I'm left holding the bag in a sense, because I'd be applying to lateral from Proskauer (V40 or so?) instead of Cravath.

Unless you all think this logical process is faulty, by all means let me know, I'm just trying to sort through all this

A thing to keep in mind is that most sports law work is really just a subset of labor and employment (its actually pretty heavy in both labor and contract law). Sure, if you want to shoot right into Proskauer's sports law group, it would be tough, but shooting more broadly for L&E isn't quite as difficult, since its among their largest groups. Its not like all people who end up working for a sports league worked specifically in a "sports law" practice beforehand.

[Anonymous User]

I think what OP meant by "holding the bag" is that laterals typically take prestige of the firm into account when making a decision, and that Cravath is objectively more prestigious than Proskauer.

Not that Proskauer isn't a great firm or a fantastic place to work and start a career, I've heard both.