Nyc lit: Paul Weiss or Sullcrom Forum

[Anonymous User]

Incredibly lucky to have early offers from both. Have been dinged by rest of the chambers tier one nyc lit firms but skadden, so I'll most likely choose from these two, and don't really know where to start.

A bit about me: Hope to clerk. Most interested in appellate; media is really appealing too but I am perfectly interested in plain old commercial/securities lit. White collar is also appealing. Will probably do the big firm thing as long as possible; am quite interested in being an ausa but long term plans are flexible. If I had to pick another region to live in it would be dc, but my ties are to middle parts of the country. Appreciate any input!

[thesealocust]

Paul Weiss.

You can have a great career at Sullivan & Cromwell, but for lit they're not in any meaningful way better or more prestigious, absent very narrow goals that involve Goldman Sachs or a preference for the financial district.

Also, just to cut to the chase since it's that time of year again, here's the collected "lol sulcrom" background:

http://abovethelaw.com/2007/01/sullivan ... e-iceberg/

http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2007/01/24/sul ... te-morale/

Congratulations!

Based on your reaction to getting the offer, this is probably the best thing that could have ever happened to you. I encourage you to enjoy the summer and take accept their offer as nothing in the world will cure you of your prestige obsession quicker than some time at S&C.

During orientation, they'll give you an S&C shoulderbag and you'll wear it with the S&C logo facing outward so any other commuters in the know can see it and you'll just know that they're either impressed or envious. And that will make you happy and proud. And then you'll try to figure out the best way to ensure that you're sworn in as soon as possible after receiving your bar results because then you'll get the box full of business cards that say "Sullivan & Cromwell LLP" with your actual name underneath. You'll be giddy at the thought of casually passing one (mid-conversation) to some acquaintance from undergrad you've lost touch with.

You'll start working and you'll notice that there are an awful lot of "Farewell" emails and someone will tell you that the farewell emails can only contain 4 names at a time per firm policy because the partners decided sometime in 2004 that emails indicating 6 or 7 people were leaving the firm in a two week period might cause some unhelpful whispering. You'll talk to a midlevel associate who is super-psyched to work at S&C and you'll find out that he (not a lot of shes) lateralled from some firm that frankly you would never have considered working for (too TTT for you). When you get back to your office, this will trouble you a bit, you'll wonder if your own escutcheon is being blemished by the presence of this type of person (i.e., non-elite) at your S&C. But that feeling will pass as you'll find plenty of other like-minded first years who equally relish the prestige as you you head for a drink at Ulysses (shoulderbag logo facing outward).

Then you'll get staffed on your first big deal and you'll work late night after late night and then on the weekend and on to the next weekend and then on to the weekend when you had planned to go to a friend's wedding. And you won't go because the work has to get done and you have dues to pay (or so you'll be told). You'll get a little bit upset about this turn of events, but the arrival of those business cards will soften the blow.

You'll meet more and more laterals from firms that you would never work for (some you've never even heard of). You'll note in the farewell emails that some of the junior and midlevel associates leaving S&C are going to those very same firms. Survival of the fittest you'll say. But late at night, when the air conditioning clicks down from a barely perceptible hissing sound to complete silence, these things will bother you. But you'll tell yourself you're just tired and frustrated and anyway you have work to do.

You'll have lunch with Rodge and he'll tell you that business is good and that he's listening to associates' concerns about quality of life issues. You'll notice that some of the senior associates visibly roll their eyes at each other when this comes up, but you won't mind that much because, really, what other firm's managing partner regulalry has lunch with associates to hear their concerns (and takes notes!)

A few months will pass, a few marathon deals will happen, you'll have to re-schedule a vacation but you'll tell yourself that that is to be expected.

About a year in, a couple of your classmates will crack and start talking about how much the job sucks. They'll very likely have gone to Yale Law School. You'll joke that they couldn't hack it when they leave the firm for a clerkship, or an academic position or to go to a firm in another city.

Things will go on in this pattern and you'll notice the fact that you're working a lot harder than your friends who went to "peer" firms. At first you'll be proud of this and brag about it, but after a while you'll find yourself downplaying it. At least when you have the time to get out and socialize with your law school friends.

Something will happen: a partner will scream at you, a senior associate gunning for partner will blame you for her mistake, the partner will tell you that the trip to Europe your spouse meticulously planned just won't be able to happen (he'll be really sorry and will tell you a funny story about the exotic vacation he missed or cut short). Doesn't matter what, but you'll get really pissed and you'll start to take some of the 4 or 5 calls from headhunters that you'll receive every day at that point (vultures spell blood). They'll give you the names of firms that you laughed on in the days when you posted on the XOXO board, but you'll find yourself looking into them. The headhunter will encourage to just listen to their offer and you'll consider doing so. But you won't leave because then you'd have to give up your business cards. And stop wearing the shoulder bag. And the bonus is only x months away so you'll start thinking about it then.

Until one day you won't be able to take it any more and you'll find yourself arranging to meet with people from a lightly regarded firm for a position in their New York office. And you'll worry that the XOXO crowd will see you.

And you don't believe any of this will happen, but I suggest you print this out and keep it in the top desk of your drawer so late at night when you're feeling sorry for yourself, you can add to the list of reasons to be miserable this fact: someone told you this was going to happen and you thought that person was crazy.

[Anonymous User]

Thanks sealocust. As I respect your opinion as much as anyone's here: there is no question paul weiss is the answer? Would skadden or say a weil be competitive for what I want, or is it pw all day?

[thesealocust]

Thanks sealocust. As I respect your opinion as much as anyone's here: there is no question paul weiss is the answer? Would skadden or say a weil be competitive for what I want, or is it pw all day?

Skadden would be fine. If there's some compelling reason for you to go to S&C, then it's not worth writing them off entirely. Weil I don't think is as well known/respected for litigation and has had financial troubles lately, which should IMO be one of the top concerns when looking at a firm (I haven't followed it that careful though, maybe they've turned it around?).

Basically, if you want to work at a top litigation firm, check the chambers & partners rankings for NYC and pick a band 1 firm. If you have a reason to pick a band 2 firm, it's a completely reasonable choice, but all else being equal that's about as good as you can get on rankings. Your life matters a lot, so pay attention to fit/gut/culture and intangible things that a forum can't really help you with.

[rpupkin]

Thanks sealocust. As I respect your opinion as much as anyone's here: there is no question paul weiss is the answer? Would skadden or say a weil be competitive for what I want, or is it pw all day?

I have nothing against sealocust--he seems like a smart and knowledgeable guy--but I would be wary of making a decision based on the opinion of some guy on the internet. The information you get around here is necessarily semi-informed and anecdotal. In that spirit, I'll just add that Paul Weiss has a reputation for being brutal on young lit associates. It's great litigation experience if you can stand up to the workload. But like Kirkland and Quinn, you've really got to throw your life away to thrive there.

Of course, that previous sentence could apply to most NYC big law offices, but I do think that PW is on the sweatier end of the sweat-shop continuum for lit.

[Anonymous User]

Thanks for your input. Yeah I will certainly be asking a lot of real life contacts and doing second looks and what not, but just trying to get as many opinions as possible here. Never thought I'd be anywhere close to this position, so I don't really know the landscape as well as I'd like.

[Anonymous User]

I would probably go to Paul Weiss for lit (but definitely S&C for corporate). I didn't get an offer from PW but I considered S&C along with other band 1 lit firms and I felt like litigation there was more derivative of corporate institutional clients than organic as compared to e.g. Paul weiss.

I ultimately wound up summering at a peer firm and in retrospect, while I was happy with my choice, I really don't know if it makes a difference at the junior level. I would think for a while about whether you want to be a young associate in litigation at an NYC megafirm; once you've committed to that decision, where you'll be least unhappy is far more relevant.

[Anonymous User]

I would probably go to Paul Weiss for lit (but definitely S&C for corporate). I didn't get an offer from PW but I considered S&C along with other band 1 lit firms and I felt like litigation there was more derivative of corporate institutional clients than organic as compared to e.g. Paul weiss.

I ultimately wound up summering at a peer firm and in retrospect, while I was happy with my choice, I really don't know if it makes a difference at the junior level. I would think for a while about whether you want to be a young associate in litigation at an NYC megafirm; once you've committed to that decision, where you'll be least unhappy is far more relevant.

Not OP but interested in NYC lit

Can you expand on the bolded? Are you saying NYC lit is just a categorical bad idea?

[bruinfan10]

I would probably go to Paul Weiss for lit (but definitely S&C for corporate). I didn't get an offer from PW but I considered S&C along with other band 1 lit firms and I felt like litigation there was more derivative of corporate institutional clients than organic as compared to e.g. Paul weiss.

I ultimately wound up summering at a peer firm and in retrospect, while I was happy with my choice, I really don't know if it makes a difference at the junior level. I would think for a while about whether you want to be a young associate in litigation at an NYC megafirm; once you've committed to that decision, where you'll be least unhappy is far more relevant.

Not OP but interested in NYC lit

Can you expand on the bolded? Are you saying NYC lit is just a categorical bad idea?

it's kind of the belly of the beast in terms of the archetypal horrible biglaw experience. i mean not lit necessarily, i think the corp kids have it worse in nyc, but at equal pay i'd work sf/la/dc/denver/loltexas/anywhere else than nyc any day of the week.

people go to nyc biglaw because it's easy to get a job there/path of least resistance, and they think new york will make them feel brand new the streets will inspire you, not because it's a better place to work than any other market-paying city (that said, if NYC TO 190 happens I may end up putting in some limited time there).

also i'd credit the seal holocoust more than your average poster to the extent TLS helps you make your decision. knows what's up. i have a number of friends who went to and left S&C. that place is terribad even for a megafirm.

[Desert Fox]

[Anonymous User]

Friends don't let friends do general litigation.

lol

This comment = paul weiss?

[Desert Fox]

[rpupkin]

Friends don't let friends do general litigation.

lol

This comment = paul weiss?

I'd rather go to auschwitz than do nyc lit.

Your user name makes this comment more than a little ambiguous.

[Desert Fox]

[N.P.H.]

Thanks sealocust. As I respect your opinion as much as anyone's here: there is no question paul weiss is the answer? Would skadden or say a weil be competitive for what I want, or is it pw all day?

I have nothing against sealocust--he seems like a smart and knowledgeable guy--but I would be wary of making a decision based on the opinion of some guy on the internet. The information you get around here is necessarily semi-informed and anecdotal. In that spirit, I'll just add that Paul Weiss has a reputation for being brutal on young lit associates. It's great litigation experience if you can stand up to the workload. But like Kirkland and Quinn, you've really got to throw your life away to thrive there.

Of course, that previous sentence could apply to most NYC big law offices, but I do think that PW is on the sweatier end of the sweat-shop continuum for lit.

And S&C doesn't???

These are tier-1 NY lit firms here. I'd be amazed if PW averaged more hours than S&C. Even w/r/t lit.

[thesealocust]

Here's the thing: At any of the firms under discussion here, your life is going to be determined by the general economy, your clients, and the small group of people you work with, handicapped slightly by your ability to play politics and manage your assignments/teams. At all "tier 1" NYC firms, corp or lit, the average associate is going to be worked to the absolute bone and have huge work/life balance problems.

But it's still highly variable - slowdowns will give people breezy months, unpopular groups will go completely crazy without warning and will be understaffed, etc.

All of that is true but none of that is really actionable. If work/life balance matters, either plan to leave NYC biglaw quickly or never go there in the first place. If you're looking at top-tier firms trying to decide where your life will be the worst, it's not a risk you have all that much control over just by selecting one firm or another several years in advance of your start date.

[rpupkin]

Thanks sealocust. As I respect your opinion as much as anyone's here: there is no question paul weiss is the answer? Would skadden or say a weil be competitive for what I want, or is it pw all day?

I have nothing against sealocust--he seems like a smart and knowledgeable guy--but I would be wary of making a decision based on the opinion of some guy on the internet. The information you get around here is necessarily semi-informed and anecdotal. In that spirit, I'll just add that Paul Weiss has a reputation for being brutal on young lit associates. It's great litigation experience if you can stand up to the workload. But like Kirkland and Quinn, you've really got to throw your life away to thrive there.

Of course, that previous sentence could apply to most NYC big law offices, but I do think that PW is on the sweatier end of the sweat-shop continuum for lit.

And S&C doesn't???

These are tier-1 NY lit firms here. I'd be amazed if PW averaged more hours than S&C. Even w/r/t lit.

I didn't say that S&C was less of a sweatshop than PW. And I didn't say that OP should go to S&C.

Why would you be "amazed" if PW associates averaged more hours than S&C associates in lit? If someone put a gun to my head, I'd guess that PW lit associates bill a bit more than S&C lit associates on average. I base this on anecdotes from former associates of both offices. But I'm not sure.

To be clear, I am not suggesting that the OP (or anyone else) should choose S&C over PW. Were I forced to choose between the two (God forbid), I would go with PW because I think you'd get better litigation experience and training. But the lifestyle there is brutal, I'm pretty sure.

[bearsfan23]

Friends don't let friends do general litigation.

lol

This comment = paul weiss?

I'd rather go to auschwitz than do nyc lit. But I don't know the market well enough. But I do know I would not work in general litigation.

Good point. I'm sure working IP Lit in DC is much better in terms of hours/exit options

[rpupkin]

Friends don't let friends do general litigation.

lol

This comment = paul weiss?

I'd rather go to auschwitz than do nyc lit. But I don't know the market well enough. But I do know I would not work in general litigation.

Good point. I'm sure working IP Lit in DC is much better in terms of hours/exit options

You're trying to be cleverly sarcastic, but I think that IP Lit in DC does have better hours, on average, than general commercial lit in NYC. And no one said anything about exit options.

[bearsfan23]

Friends don't let friends do general litigation.

lol

This comment = paul weiss?

I'd rather go to auschwitz than do nyc lit. But I don't know the market well enough. But I do know I would not work in general litigation.

Good point. I'm sure working IP Lit in DC is much better in terms of hours/exit options

You're trying to be cleverly sarcastic, but I think that IP Lit in DC does have better hours, on average, than general commercial lit in NYC. And no one said anything about exit options.

So the only thing that matters to you in terms of a law firm is hours worked? You must be a K-JD. I'd rather work 100 hours a week with people I like and at a job then will provide opportunities for my career then 60 hours a weeks with people who suck and a job with no exit options

Then again, you probably think DF's Holocaust joke was witty and clever.

[rpupkin]

So the only thing that matters to you in terms of a law firm is hours worked? You must be a K-JD. I'd rather work 100 hours a week with people I like and at a job then will provide opportunities for my career then 60 hours a weeks with people who suck and a job with no exit options

Then again, you probably think DF's Holocaust joke was witty and clever.

In order:

1. No, I don't think that "hours worked" is the only thing that matters. I neither said nor implied that.

2. I'm not K-JD. I worked for several years before law school, and I'm now a mid-level litigation associate.

3. I bet you haven't worked as a lawyer at a big firm. If you had, you would not have typed your "I'd rather work 100 hours a week" line.

4. Relatedly, I suspect you're rather clueless about the hypothetical "exit options" you reference (which, again, no one ITT was discussing).

5. DF didn't make a "Holocaust joke"; he used a cultural reference to make a point. If I write that I'd rather have a root canal than defend a deposition, I am not making a "root canal" joke.

[Anonymous User]

I was a PW lit summer (yes, DF, I know that summers don't know shit)

Most associates did not seem miserable. Busy, with some late nights, but all had at least some semblance of a social life. I think the lack of any facetime requirement at all (associates would just work completely from home some days, esp after drinking events) seems to help a lot with that.

As for billables, most I talked to were billing probably 2200-2300, with a few up around 2600 and a few below 2000. Obviously this has sampling issues. The firm says they want 2000 (but there is no requirement), I trust Karp and the firm management, but I am not sure that is realistic.

From what the associates said, you can get fucked if you get staffed on a "mega-case"

They are serious about their pro bono thing, and counts them as billables.

I am really happy (at this point) that I decided to go there, mostly because I liked, to some extent, pretty much everybody I worked with. Also, free top shelf liquor and tons of food every friday for free doesn't hurt.

[cookiejar1]

I don't believe that there are meaningful differences between the hours worked at S&C v. PW. Even if S&C's average hours billed is higher I don't think choosing a firm based on marginal differences in averages is the way to go here. The fact is both firms will have similar levels of expectation and you'll have put in the necessary hours whether you like it or not.

So just choose between the two firms for other tangible reasons. Don't choose PW under the allusions that you'll work less there.

[Desert Fox]

[Desert Fox]