small market midlaw over NY V10 Forum

[Anonymous User]

Rising 3L here summering at a NY V10 doing mostly corporate. Last year I summered at a midlaw firm (~400 firmwide, ~200 at then HQ where I was), in a non-major city where I'm originally from. The midlaw firm starts at $115K and has ~$500K PPP. I'm starting to think NY isn't right for me and am seriously considering reaching out to the midlaw firm.

Some of my considerations: Short term, I think midlaw is right. Better hours, city I enjoy more, near friends and family, fine $ in a low COL area, as of today I'm fine settling down there. But I'm worried about long term for a few reasons: I can start in biglaw and go to midlaw but not the other way around, I'm unsure of the exit options out of midlaw, both laterally and in house.

What else should I be considering, and what are your thoughts?

[Serett]

Rising 2L, so I'm not providing any special, more learned insight. But if you don't want biglaw now, even just based on the respective SAs, I doubt you'll want it in a decade (when the longer hours, less enjoyable city, and being farther from family matters more, plus when you're even better off financially than you are now), so I'd posit that the likelihood of being able to go only one direction between the two shouldn't be much of a downside.

[jrthor10]

Need to at least consider the fact that midlaw salaries don't increase at the same rate as biglaw ones. While a V10 firm is lockstep, midlaw firm compensation is mostly a black box after the first year. While 110-115k in the small market may go further than 160k in NYC, that calculation changes when you're a third year potentially making 190+ in NYC and likely 115-125 in the secondary market.

[los blancos]

Midlaw exit opps are probably going to be more local than biglaw and perhaps with largely smaller clients.

I think this is largely a personal decision (moreso than if you were in lit) depending on what you want to do near or far term. Bear in mind that, while it may have been hidden from you as a summer, business development is a pretty big point of emphasis from year one in midlaw.

[jbagelboy]

Do we really consider a 400 atty firm "midlaw"? Sounds more like "regional biglaw" to me. A lot of firms that pay $160k in NY will pay $130 or $120 in smaller markets.

[los blancos]

Yeah anything over 100-200 sounds more like "regional biglaw" (to the extent that's a useful differentiation from just "midlaw")

[sprezz]

loans. if you do not have them, then the whole exit opps / whatever thing just turns on your personal/subjective career goals and how you want to allocate the risk that you don't hit the dreamiest of dream jobs or that one of the things you currently think you don't want to do ends up being a thing you wish you were doing later. it's not an easy question to answer, but it's one where you're not missing any inputs you need to reach your solution.

loans can change the game. if you owe $xxx,xxx then it's going to take a fair chunk of time longer to pay them down than in NY, because that's not really affected by COL adjustments. with $160 -> $175 -> $190 (plus bonuses), you can allocate more of the money to getting those loans out of the way; with $115 -> $123 -> $133 (likely a generous guess), those loans will eat into your medium-term quality of life longer. that makes choosing regional biglaw over biglaw biglaw tougher to justify.

the cost of living gymnastics are a rough heuristic for quality of life -- you're trading the absolute dollar amount for stuff like minimizing your commute & maximizing what you can get out of your marginal recreational hour or dollar, but also for considerations like being a little less fucked if you need out of a toxic work environment and end up (say) breaking a lease because of it, etc. and while having lower rents and a family/friend support network mitigate that type of you're-stuck-at-a-job-you-hate risk, loans are the most permanent version of having something looming over you that ties you to a job that you may want to leave. so, imo, they undermine the COL balancing between a secondary market and NY and bring other considerations to bear, like: what your loan repayment plan and timeframe is in the respective markets; how that impacts your ability to capture the QOL improvements that seem to exist at a general level in your home market; and how strong your family network is there / how willing you'd be to suck it up and (say) live with family for a while if shit hit the fan as a 26+y/o Juris Doctor, Efquire.

[thesealocust]

If New York (or a similar big city) isn't appealing to you, I tend not to think there's much value to doing a tour of duty there first.

With that being said, job security can be more iffy with regional markets and small firms - but that's highly firm specific. If you're confident in the midlaw firm and aren't excited about NYC, take it and never look back.

[Anonymous User]

Rising 3L here summering at a NY V10 doing mostly corporate. Last year I summered at a midlaw firm (~400 firmwide, ~200 at then HQ where I was), in a non-major city where I'm originally from. The midlaw firm starts at $115K and has ~$500K PPP. I'm starting to think NY isn't right for me and am seriously considering reaching out to the midlaw firm.

I recently faced a similar choice (deciding between V10 and midlaw in a ~200 person office, though I'm doing lit rather than corporate).

I decided to go with the NYC firm, for a mix of the reasons people discussed above: the midlaw firm seemed a little unstable due to changes in the local legal economy, the NY firm might give a bit more career flexibility later on, and money (especially clerkship bonus/pay as a 2nd/3rd year) helps with debt. Also—at least at my midlaw firm and in litigation—I was told that a big chunk of business comes from local counsel work, so having a NYC network can be pretty helpful. (los blancos is absolutely right that business development is going to be key in midlaw.)

Also (and you might have already heard this) I was told that midlaw firms like to hire people they knew (aka, past summers, like us) within 2–3 years of starting. But I was also told it gets a lot harder as you get more senior. So, if you do start in NYC, keep in mind that the clock starts ticking pretty quickly.

[OutoftheWoods]

I think this comes out to a simple home v. not home equation. I think you may get rid of your loans in the same amount of time due to lower costs outside nyc and lower taxes, etc. Maybe a difference of 2 years of paying loans? Happiness is probably worth more.

That said, plenty of jobless 3Ls will be happy if you dont take your big law offer. lol.

[chuckbass]

Do we really consider a 400 atty firm "midlaw"? Sounds more like "regional biglaw" to me. A lot of firms that pay $160k in NY will pay $130 or $120 in smaller markets.

Yeah I was confused because we generally count 100+ attorney firms as biglaw, at least LST does.

[Anonymous User]

Pretty sure I know what firm you're talking about (OH, right?). Gotta worry about stability there..

[Anonymous User]

OP here. Thanks for the replies, everyone. Lots of good points brought up. I'll luckily graduate with very little debt, so that's not too big of an issue. But speaking of money, is it okay to ask the regional firm about their payscale/partnership structure (all equity, some non-equity, etc.)? all that stuff is common knowledge at my NY firm, but I have no clue what it looks like at the regional. I won't do this until I have an offer of course.

Exactly how important is business development to advancing in the firm? I'm from the area but didn't go to undergrad or law school in the area so that's been another concern.

Regarding "mid" vs "big", all the offices are in non-major cities with non-major metro areas, headquartered in a small city, and the 400 lawyers are spread out. But it is a major player in the region.

[Anonymous User]

It’s simple, if you have a shot at V10, take it. Anyone can go the mid law route. Plus, V10 offers many future employment opportunities. BTW: No matter what you choose, the workload and pressure is pretty similar.

[jbagelboy]

It’s simple, if you have a shot at V10, take it. Anyone can go the mid law route. Plus, V10 offers many future employment opportunities. BTW: No matter what you choose, the workload and pressure is pretty similar.

Oh, no, V10 will be worse workload.

[los blancos]

It’s simple, if you have a shot at V10, take it. Anyone can go the mid law route. Plus, V10 offers many future employment opportunities. BTW: No matter what you choose, the workload and pressure is pretty similar.

How did you manage to put so many false statements in just two lines?

Exactly how important is business development to advancing in the firm? I'm from the area but didn't go to undergrad or law school in the area so that's been another concern.

Depends a lot from place to place, but they will generally care more, and care earlier. I know of several firms, including one that sounds an awful lot like the 400 lawyer firm you're describing, where it's actually part of the expected hours requirement and associate review process.

If business development is something you're not interested in, then midlaw can be a bad idea, because not only will you have to do it sooner, but it can make it more difficult to get somewhere [i.e., in house] where you won't have to do it at all.

Rising 3L here summering at a NY V10 doing mostly corporate. Last year I summered at a midlaw firm (~400 firmwide, ~200 at then HQ where I was), in a non-major city where I'm originally from. The midlaw firm starts at $115K and has ~$500K PPP. I'm starting to think NY isn't right for me and am seriously considering reaching out to the midlaw firm.

I recently faced a similar choice (deciding between V10 and midlaw in a ~200 person office, though I'm doing lit rather than corporate).

I decided to go with the NYC firm, for a mix of the reasons people discussed above: the midlaw firm seemed a little unstable due to changes in the local legal economy, the NY firm might give a bit more career flexibility later on, and money (especially clerkship bonus/pay as a 2nd/3rd year) helps with debt. Also—at least at my midlaw firm and in litigation—I was told that a big chunk of business comes from local counsel work, so having a NYC network can be pretty helpful. (los blancos is absolutely right that business development is going to be key in midlaw.)

Also (and you might have already heard this) I was told that midlaw firms like to hire people they knew (aka, past summers, like us) within 2–3 years of starting. But I was also told it gets a lot harder as you get more senior. So, if you do start in NYC, keep in mind that the clock starts ticking pretty quickly.

I think this is mostly good advice, but I would read it with the bolded in mind. It sounds to me like there's less of an opportunity cost in corporate vs lit because it seems like the exit opps are better across the board and there's more flexibility [in corp]. The conventional wisdom seems to be that going NYC biglaw -> regional biglaw might be easier in corp than in lit for that reason. But smaller firms are still often less leveraged and by sheer #s are less likely to have openings or room to add, so it's still not necessarily easy.

I'd be tempted to go NYC to make more money, experience something different, and build a network there. Also, I don't know that much about corp, but it seems like you're more likely to work on much more [uniquely] complex deals for much bigger clients (whereas the difference perhaps isn't quite as marked in lit). I'm sure TSL can speak more to that. But if you think your end goal is partnership at the regional firm, then I'd be tempted to skip the extra hours & stress.

[thesealocust]

It’s simple, if you have a shot at V10, take it. Anyone can go the mid law route. Plus, V10 offers many future employment opportunities. BTW: No matter what you choose, the workload and pressure is pretty similar.

Oh, no, V10 will be worse workload.

Absent some very strange set of circumstances, I completely agree. There will be year-long crisis times at midlaw firms and biglaw associates who somehow slip between the cracks and wind up on cruise control, but it's absolutely safe to assume a top law firm in a major city will have more consistently bad hours (where bad is a combination of long and unpredictable).

My friends in smaller markets were definitely working a lot more than a normal 9 to 5 job, but it was nothing compared to the horror show that my friends at big city law firms occasionally encountered - particularly at places like V10 NYC firms.

[Anonymous User]

I also agree. My sister, first year JA and my brother 4th year both work at V firms in the same large satellite market. A couple of their friends work at sizeable, but not V firms and as I hear it their hours are about the same (and possibly worse). My takeaway is that if you’re at successful firm, there is little difference in the hours. The disparity is in the paycheck (perhaps 20K, not a huge variance, but notable). Unless I am missing something, V is the much wiser choice.

[Frayed Knot]

I also agree. My sister, first year JA and my brother 4th year both work at V firms in the same large satellite market. A couple of their friends work at sizeable, but not V firms and as I hear it their hours are about the same (and possibly worse). My takeaway is that if you’re at successful firm, there is little difference in the hours. The disparity is in the paycheck (perhaps 20K, not a huge variance, but notable). Unless I am missing something, V is the much wiser choice.

It seems like people ITT are disagreeing with each other about hours because we're not being clear about what sort of firms we're talking about. My understanding is that the OP is comparing a NYC V10 to regional biglaw/midlaw in a tertiary market. Compared to a NYC V10, a firm in a tertiary market likely pays ~$50k less—and, yes, has significantly lower expectations for hours. No large-ish firm job will be anywhere near 9–5, but there's a huge difference between billing 1900 and billing 2200. And the discrepancy could easily be bigger than that, depending on the two firms in question.

(Of course, we're talking about averages, and anyone can have crazy hours at any firm for idiosyncratic reasons.)

On the other hand, the anon above seems to be talking about pretty small differences in pay between two firms in the same market. In that situation, yeah, differences in hours are much more likely to be slight. And some firms really are "lifestyle" firms, while others just pay less and pretend they offer better hours for it. But that's a totally different situation than the one OP seems to be talking about.


Oh, and one other point relevant to hours: the day in NY (and maybe other major east coast markets?) seems to start around 9:30, while it starts around 8:00 in many tertiary markets. Even with similar hours (ha!), the NY associate has a much higher chance of Seamless dinner at their desk, while the tertiary-market lawyer has a better shot at being home for dinner. YMMV, but for me that would make the NY hours feel a lot worse.

[Anonymous User]

OP here. I'm all but certain the hours being better at the midlaw firm, especially given the city it's in and my particular NY form/practice area.

And yea I think my goal (in a perfect world. i know you can't plan or ensure these things) is partnership not in NY and in my home region. Which makes this tempting.

Any input on my question about asking about payscale/bonus/partner info? is that okay to do?

[trebekismyhero]

OP here. I'm all but certain the hours being better at the midlaw firm, especially given the city it's in and my particular NY form/practice area.

And yea I think my goal (in a perfect world. i know you can't plan or ensure these things) is partnership not in NY and in my home region. Which makes this tempting.

Any input on my question about asking about payscale/bonus/partner info? is that okay to do?

You would have to tell us the market to even be able to make an educated guess.

As ppl have said, in most smaller markets where the starting salary is around 110k the increases are much smaller. So while as a 5th year associate in NYC you'd be making around 230k plus bonus, you likely will be making much less than 160k in the smaller market. And bonuses are definitely smaller. I can only anectodely speak about my friend in MPLS/StL type market. He works at a big regional as a sr. associate and while the equivalent bonuses in NYC would have been 80-100k, he made way under half that.

With that said, if you are unhappy in NYC as a SA, you will definitely be unhappy there as a real Associate so I would recommend going home