Associate at Asian Offices of US Biglaw Firm Taking Questions Forum

[inter-associate]

As OCI is fast upon the law school population, I thought I would start a thread for students interested in working abroad, especially in Asia, to ask questions.

Some background - I am currently an associate at one of a top U.S. law firm's Asian offices. I worked in New York for a few years and then lateralled to my current position, where I have now worked for long enough to have a pretty good read of the legal recruiting market in the region. Every year around this time I notice a few TLS posts asking about working abroad and the amount of misinformation is staggering. If your goal is to end up, either permanently or temporarily, in a foreign office the choices you make as a 2L can have an enormous impact on realizing that goal. Rather than writing a comprehensive guide to moving and working abroad, which would be far too heavily based on my own experience, I thought I would just open the floor for any questions.

Please do not ask for any additional details that relate to my identity. While I am fairly confident that very few associates in Asia read TLS, it is a really small legal market (which is a great feature of working in Asia, by the way) and I don't want to out myself. I am pretty sure I can answer most questions without providing too many personal details, but feel free to PM me as well if you don't want to post publicly.

[Anonymous User]

What sort of work is typically done at foreign offices? Is generally the same as legal work in the US, but for Asian clients? Or is the day-to-day different entirely?

Is hiring at Asian offices of US firms any different from normal US firm hiring (i.e., are the same factors equally important at both)?

If it's not too personal, could you tell us your general practice area (e.g., M&A, litigation, IP, etc.)?

[inter-associate]

What sort of work is typically done at foreign offices? Is generally the same as legal work in the US, but for Asian clients? Or is the day-to-day different entirely?

At least in Asia, the general scope of work done by US firms is fairly similar to that of their U.S. offices. However, the firms are much more transactional practice heavy than in the U.S. I would say that you are very unlikely to have a career in Asia as a litigator. Most firms have a small disputes team (and some of the vereins, like Baker McKenzie have slightly larger teams). There are opportunities, but they are few and far between. Within the transactional practices, you will find that there is a lot less specialization than in the big U.S. offices. Some firms formally distinguish capital markets, M&A and bank finance, but most juniors tend to be generalists for a while and even senior capital markets associates dabble in M&A.

The work itself is pretty similar to in the U.S. One advantage to getting US experience first is that most of the processes for both capital markets and M&A internationally have been copied from the US (and the UK). However, Asian companies and banks tend to be much less sophisticated than their US counterparts, meaning that there is a lot more handholding. Tasks that would never be assigned to outside counsel in NY are routine for firms out here. In some ways, I have a much better understanding of how a transaction comes together now than when I was in NY because lawyers handle so much more of the process. On the other hand, there is a lot more room to get yourself in trouble in this market. Juniors tend to have a lot of responsibility and if they don't know when to ask for help they can get themselves, and clients, into hot water.

[inter-associate]

Is hiring at Asian offices of US firms any different from normal US firm hiring (i.e., are the same factors equally important at both)?

If it's not too personal, could you tell us your general practice area (e.g., M&A, litigation, IP, etc.)?

I do capital markets with a little M&A from time to time (but I try to avoid the M&A, I don't find it as intellectual stimulating as some M&A lawyers try to make it sound).

Hiring is largely similar, but with some nuances. For entry level hiring, school, language skills and grades (in that order) determine whether you have a shot. Most firms hire a few summer associates every year, but there is a trend towards firms asking those summers to work for a year in their NY offices. Honestly, unless you have no better options it is a lot easier to get your bearings as a lawyer in a big U.S. office than it is out here. If nothing else, a year of experience will help you learn the processes and what types of issues need to be elevated to someone with more experience. Lateral hiring is far more prevalent in Asia, so many seniors don't even really know how to train juniors.

For lateral hiring, firms generally look at your current firm, practice area, language skills and school/grades. Offices here are not always that familiar with lower ranked U.S. firms (roughly the bottom half of the V-100 but with tons of exceptions). Our HR manager has come to me on several occasions to ask if I have ever heard of a firm before. I don't know what happens to candidates who HR doesn't ask about.

Practice area is critical and is something that you should be thinking about at the 2L stage. It is really difficult to get an M&A position if you have only capital markets experience in the U.S. (the reverse is not true, but it is still easier to get capital markets with experience). I've noticed that project finance openings will occasionally be filled by candidates with bank finance experience too. However, you should keep in mind that Asian offices are generally very capital markets heavy. If you want to live in Asia long term, capital markets is probably the safest choice (unless you can get M&A from a top U.S. shop).

Language skills are often the wildcard that make or break a candidate's chances. There are enough Asians with substantial U.S. experience that the offices out here don't really need to hire a non-native speaker with just general conversational skills. Native speakers are cheaper (they sometimes get less or no cost of living adjustment) and communicate with clients much easier than most non-native speakers who think they know the language. One question I was asked during my interviews was whether I thought I could lead a meeting in a foreign language. I answered yes and sure enough, I am often the only attorney from my firm at client meetings. (The message there is to be completely honestwhen answering questions about language skills - I know one person who turned down an offer because he exaggerated his language skills and was scared to face it) There are opportunities for English-only attorneys, but I think it would be really hard to make partner/counsel if you cannot communicate with the firm's clients.

One final general thought on hiring. Native speakers are generally the most marketable with 3-5 years of U.S. experience. There is currently a serious shortage of juniors in Asia, so if you are a less competitive candidate (from a language or firm ranking perspective) you could benefit trying to lateral a little earlier when there is less competition. Just like in the U.S., a lot of work just needs a body to crank it out. I don't know what the long-term prospects would be though.

[Anonymous User]

What's the COLA for HK offices and do they vary from firm to firm?

Are there any US tax lawyers abroad?

[chocolatepie15]

When you mean language skills do you mean Mandarin or Cantonese? What is the career progression like? Are the rumours about the offshore firms favouring American/British hires over Asian hires true?

[Anonymous User]

Do you mostly do DCM or ECM? Or does your department make no differentiation and everyone just dabbles in a bit of both?

Is there any travelling involved?

[inter-associate]

What's the COLA for HK offices and do they vary from firm to firm?

Are there any US tax lawyers abroad?

COLA is a matter of firm policy and varies widely from firm to firm and, in some cases, based on family size. Interestingly, most of the elite firms pay a lower COLA than some of the firms just a couple down the line in the rankings. Once you get out of the traditional elite wall street firms it really is a crapshoot, ranging from great COLA to just NY market pay to under NY market pay.

I don't know any US tax lawyers out here. We send all of our tax questions to tax teams in the states. It's one of those cases where one person couldn't handle the workload but most offices can't support a full team. Additionally, in the capital markets world, which dominates the Asia market, most of the deals are Reg S, so there aren't any US tax implications.

[inter-associate]

When you mean language skills do you mean Mandarin or Cantonese? What is the career progression like? Are the rumours about the offshore firms favouring American/British hires over Asian hires true?

Depends on where you live. Mandarin won't get you far in Korea

Cantonese generally won't get you very far these days. If you want to work in Hong Kong/China, Mandarin is where it's at. Even though offerings are listed in HK, the companies are almost always from the PRC.


I'm not sure what your question about offshore firms refers to. The International firms seem to prefer to hire native language speakers with solid US/UK experience. I would say 90% or more of the attorneys out here are Asian, with an even higher percentage among younger associates. Their drafting skills often leave much to be desired, but the market out here doesn't demand the same level of precision. For M&A, I have heard that an increasing number of deals are drafted solely in Chinese, especially when the buyers are international private equity funds. That's solely hearsay, however, as my own M&A deals have all been drafted in English. At any rate, I think the firms out here are happy to get a really strong US/UK associate with good language skills or some other really desirable skillset, but most of them focus primarily on hiring native speakers.

If you are referring to local firms, I don't think anyone with less than 5-8 years of experience who has other options should consider them. They generally only handle local law issues and due diligence and don't really have any ability to train international associates. They are good at what they do, but the international firms spend a ton of time cleaning up after the local firms have finished their work.

[inter-associate]

Do you mostly do DCM or ECM? Or does your department make no differentiation and everyone just dabbles in a bit of both?

Is there any travelling involved?

My firm doesn't distinguish and I do a solid mix of both. The skillset isn't that much different, although high yield work is much more technical and a lot more interesting. Most of the high-yield work comes out of South East Asia though. PRC bonds are almost always investment grade. I do know that some of the magic circle firms distinguish between ECM and DCM, but I don't really understand the value. Even in NY most capital markets people do both.

One of the biggest perks and curses of working in Asia is travel. Many of the meetings that are held by phone in NY are held in person in Asia. I travel for deals an average of probably every other week. It's fun, because you actually get to meet clients, but it's a curse because of the unreliability of Asian departure times. Also, your other work doesn't just magically disappear because you spend six hours traveling. Even if you can bill the time you still have to finish your other work.

[inter-associate]

What is the career progression like?

In theory it is the same as in the U.S. In practice, however, much higher value is placed on rainmaking in Asia than in the U.S. At most of the top NY firms, generally firms seem to be looking at skillset, client management, and firm needs when determining who makes partner. Most of the top firms have a steady stream of institutional clients so they really just need people to keep the train moving forward. (This obviously changes outside of the elite firms)

In Asia, even (especially?) elite firms fight tooth and nail for every client. Just about every deal has a number (sometimes ten or more) of the top firms pitching for them and a lot of the companies have never heard of any of the firms before. Whether you make partner depends heavily on whether you can (a) get invited for pitches (i.e., have solid relationships with investment banks) and (b) actually win the deals.

At the same time, firms are not as "up or out" as they are in the US. Counsel positions seem to be handed out regularly to those with solid skills sets and some firms have some really old associates. It's a small market with a lot of competition for talent, so most people can stick around for quite a while.

[Anonymous User]

Any reason you picked this particular destination instead of an English speaking country like Singapore?
Should a 3L directly apply to the Asian office? Or do you recommend getting a few years of experience in NY ?

[inter-associate]

Any reason you picked this particular destination instead of an English speaking country like Singapore?
Should a 3L directly apply to the Asian office? Or do you recommend getting a few years of experience in NY ?

It really comes down to personal preference. As a practical matter, it is much harder to get a job out here if you don't have a story as to why you want to be where you are going. Most firms are looking for people with a long term commitment to where you are applying. Once you're in the area you lose a lot of your mobility, so you have to show that you really want it.

In an ideal world you should get a year or two in the US. If you don't have that lined up after 2L summer it is unlikely that an Asian office will save you. The world isn't ideal though, and if you network well you may find a firm in need. There's no harm in adding them to your mass mailing destinations, but I wouldn't count on it.

As a 2L you take what you can get. An elite firm anywhere is better than a lesser known or midlaw firm. Anywhere you go the practice group is also important. K&E bankruptcy is great, but it is a fast road to a long term US career. At any rate, take what you can get and then figure out how to leverage it for what you want.

[Anonymous User]

How's the market like for HK/SG/Korea?

Thanks for doing this.

[Anonymous User]

you mention permanent and temporary in your OP, just how would you go to asia temporarily? While I would love to work in asian, i would definitely want to come back to the US eventually. I worry that working in an asian office would get you "stuck" there though.

[Anonymous User]

inter-associate wrote:
For lateral hiring, firms generally look at your current firm, practice area, language skills and school/grades. Offices here are not always that familiar with lower ranked U.S. firms (roughly the bottom half of the V-100 but with tons of exceptions). Our HR manager has come to me on several occasions to ask if I have ever heard of a firm before. I don't know what happens to candidates who HR doesn't ask about.

hi, thanks for taking questions. im currently a rising 3l summering at a v30 firm. i want to eventually lateral into Asia after practicing in the us for 2-4 years or so. from what i have gathered so far (and you have confirmed this) it looks like cap markets/M&A is the way to go in terms of practice area in Asia. however im beginning to realize that my firm doesnt do a lot of cap markets/m&a. im planning to do 3l oci to end up at somewhere with a stronger cap markets/m&a. obviously it would be great if i could get offers from v10 but what are some non "elite" firms that have a solid reputation in Asia? what are your thoughts on magic circle firms? firms like fried frank/willkie that seem to have solid m&a practices?

[inter-associate]

How's the market like for HK/SG/Korea?

Thanks for doing this.

Corporate is hot across the board right now. Greece kind of has things at a standstill for a moment, which has finally given us a short breather, but everyone I know in HK and SG have had incredibly busy years. Most have had to cancel multiple vacations due to the workload. I'm not sure how long this will last, but it seems that firms are a little less picky with candidates right now (but the standards are still high) since everyone is overworked.

I'm not as familiar with Korea. From what I know most firms are just getting on their feet there, so it is probably a better place for more senior people right now.

[inter-associate]

you mention permanent and temporary in your OP, just how would you go to asia temporarily? While I would love to work in asian, i would definitely want to come back to the US eventually. I worry that working in an asian office would get you "stuck" there though.

Good question. I think it would be difficult to transition back to the U.S. after spending too much time in Asia. From a substantive perspective I don't think it would be that hard (although you might be a little behind your class level on your ability to rattle off SEC rules). The issue is the overall legal environment is very different from the U.S. Things are much more flexible in the Reg S world and people tend to focus much more on just getting a deal done commercially than on bickering over little points. A lot of what would be considered good lawyering in NY would be offensive out here. Adjusting back to the US way of doing things could be challenging and I think your advancement prospects within the firm would be damaged. Also, NY deals can be much more complex than in Asia (like some acquisition financing projects). Not seeing those for a few years could seriously set you back if you do return.

That said,there are opportunities to spend time in Asia temporarily. Some of the magic circle firms will send their US associates to Asia for a couple years and then bring them back (although the US offices of magic circle firms don't really have great US practices). Also, most big US firms try to accommodate transfer requests from associates, so if you started in NY you could ask to be sent to Asia and then ask to come back a few years later. Some of these firms also accommodate requests for six month to one year secondments within the firm (my firm does). All of this is subject to market conditions, but if you're at the right firm you could pull it off. If you are thinking about doing this you should definitely ask before you accept a 2Loffer (but definitely wait until you have an offer before broaching the subject).

[inter-associate]

hi, thanks for taking questions. im currently a rising 3l summering at a v30 firm. i want to eventually lateral into Asia after practicing in the us for 2-4 years or so. from what i have gathered so far (and you have confirmed this) it looks like cap markets/M&A is the way to go in terms of practice area in Asia. however im beginning to realize that my firm doesnt do a lot of cap markets/m&a. im planning to do 3l oci to end up at somewhere with a stronger cap markets/m&a. obviously it would be great if i could get offers from v10 but what are some non "elite" firms that have a solid reputation in Asia? what are your thoughts on magic circle firms? firms like fried frank/willkie that seem to have solid m&a practices?

You can play around with this site http://www.legal500.com/c/hong-kong/cap ... rkets-debt to see which tiers firms fall into in Asia. Most of the firms that consistently appear in the top 3-4 tiers are well enough known in Asia that you could probably lateral from their US offices. You may have to make a couple of moves to get where you want to go though (like first lateralling to a lesser ranked firm in Asia and then trying to lateral again once you are in the market - I know a guy who made partner at a V-5 firm doing this).

Magic circle firms are really strong in Asia and are a solid option if you can't get an elite US firm (for example, Linklaters NY would likely be better for your career than a V-30-50ish NY firm) in NY. Their US practices stink, but if you are trying to get to Asia they could give you a good leg up. Fried Frank just closed its office in Hong Kong, which means HR people know the firm. Willkie, on the other hand, while pretty strong in the US, is one of those firms that many people out here haven't heard about.

You may not be able to control where you end up after graduation and you should definitely not be disappointed to be at a V-30. You will have a great career that will likely not be that much different from those at V-10s. You will just have to hustle a bit more to get your first job in Asia. You should take active steps to develop your skills in a way that makes you attractive to Asian offices.

[ozymandius]

Good thread. I'm a mid-level doing disputes in Asia, and I'm happy to take questions as well if anyone has any for me.

[littlepuff]

Thanks for doing this!

1) Are the working hours of the associates of the Asian offices longer than their NY offices?

2) Do you think that passing the bar exam of the Asian country in which one works, in addition to attending U.S. law school, will be significantly helpful?

I appreciate it!

[ozymandius]

Thanks for doing this!

1) Are the working hours of the associates of the Asian offices longer than their NY offices?

2) Do you think that passing the bar exam of the Asian country in which one works, in addition to attending U.S. law school, will be significantly helpful?

I appreciate it!

1) I'm sure some are, but in general no. My firm is quite transparent and tells us average associate hours by region. For us, Asia generally comes in lower than the Americas, and NY is generally as bad as it gets in the Americas. Anecdotally, I worked in NY for a few years before coming out here, and hours definitely seemed worse there. That said, whether you're in New York or somewhere in Asia, this will depend much more upon individual circumstances than anything else.

In general, there is more "unbillable" work here as well--direct marketing (pitches), soft marketing (networking/client dinners), and general administrative stuff (billing). I never sniffed any of that stuff in NY, but here it's a big part of my job. My firm has billing codes for that sort of thing and they seem to be telling the truth when they say they value it. But it changes the dynamic of things a bit. Last week I had two client dinners. Was I "working" during those? Kind of, and I entered that time into the system with an internal billing code assigned to relationship management. But I was also drinking and having a good time with people who are friends.

2) Of course. I mean, if you're going to be doing US cap markets work exclusively, local bar admission won't really help you do your work. But it can help in marketing to local clients, and help you in networking locally. I don't work in HK, though, to be clear.

[inter-associate]

1) I'm sure some are, but in general no. My firm is quite transparent and tells us average associate hours by region. For us, Asia generally comes in lower than the Americas, and NY is generally as bad as it gets in the Americas. Anecdotally, I worked in NY for a few years before coming out here, and hours definitely seemed worse there. That said, whether you're in New York or somewhere in Asia, this will depend much more upon individual circumstances than anything else.

Just to add to this, I agree that it varies widely by firm, practice group and individual. Like anywhere else, if you are good you will likely be doing 200+ hours a month on a regular basis. Generally, however, I think feast or famine is much more applicable to Asia than to NY. When things get busy, they get really crazy because you just don't have enough bodies to throw at all the deals going on. When things slow down, however, it could literally mean you have nothing to do for a couple days/weeks. Anecdotally, our HK office has lead the entire firm in billable hours for the last few months, but there have also been extended periods where everybody is behind the annual billable hours pace. In NY, at least on the transactional side, it seems like there is always something waiting for you (e.g., deal closes at noon and you start the next one at 12:15).

[nyanyanya]

Thank you so much for doing this!

1) Is one's citizenship (or ability to work in the region without a visa) an important factor in the hiring for Asian offices?

2) You've mentioned that a few years of NY experience will be beneficial. Would experience in other major US markets be as helpful? Or is NYC the best place to be if one wants to move to Asia eventually?

3) How about the exit options in Asia, particularly in-house positions?

[inter-associate]

Thank you so much for doing this!

1) Is one's citizenship (or ability to work in the region without a visa) an important factor in the hiring for Asian offices?

2) You've mentioned that a few years of NY experience will be beneficial. Would experience in other major US markets be as helpful? Or is NYC the best place to be if one wants to move to Asia eventually?

3) How about the exit options in Asia, particularly in-house positions?

Citizenship is generally not an issue, just where you got your law degree from.

Other major US markets are also okay, but I think the general thought is that the deal flow in NY helps people progress faster. This is especially true for capital markets. I personally think it depends more on individual than on office though, and if you talk the right language (sound like you have experience) you should be fine from any major US market.

In house positions are out there, but options are more limited than in the US. Most local companies don't have a need for a US in house lawyer or the appetite for related costs. The options are international companies (in which case a capital markets background won't help as much,) private equity (ditto) and investment banks (hard to get). Most people I know tend to move to increasingly less elite firms until they stick somewhere (at that point including local firms)., With less up or out there is a lot more time to find your place.