Firms to avoid Forum

[Traynor Brah]

I found an old thread on this and I thought it might be valuable for the most recent generation of TLS biglawyers to chime in. Old thread: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 3&t=160245

[MCFC]

From p. 3 of that thread:

Anyone know the scoop on Dewey & LeBoeuf? I heard (anecdotally) that it was not a great place to be, post-merger.

I have heard that Dewey was a bad place to be for awhile after an earlier proposed merger fell through, but things are better post-merger. Pre-merger, LeBoeuf was basically just an insurance law firm so the Dewey rep may have taken a hit but they're probably more stable.

[Traynor Brah]

lol nice find. Didn't notice that.

[First Offense]

From p. 3 of that thread:

Anyone know the scoop on Dewey & LeBoeuf? I heard (anecdotally) that it was not a great place to be, post-merger.

I have heard that Dewey was a bad place to be for awhile after an earlier proposed merger fell through, but things are better post-merger. Pre-merger, LeBoeuf was basically just an insurance law firm so the Dewey rep may have taken a hit but they're probably more stable.

Noice.

[Anonymous User]

.

[052220152]

nice, brave, anon post dude.


id be more interested in hearing about the mid range vault firms, and which ones are particularly sweatshop-y. listening to people discuss the lifestyle at cravath vs skadden seems really minimal, and inapplicable to most people coming through here.

[FSK]

Yeah. Like, TLS does a great job at masturbating over NY v10. But there are a ton of SA spots at the entire AM Law 200, and some may need avoided.

[052220152]

Is cadwalader still a bad place to work? SRZ? Dechert?

Obviously any NY big law is a grind. Which ones make it worse?

[Anonymous User]

Current associate here. I'd advise against joining any firm that doesn't have public, lockstep bonuses. Firms with blackbox bonuses almost always pay lower bonuses. This wasn't as big an issue a few years ago when lockstep bonuses were relatively small to begin with, but with lockstep bonuses now at $50k-$100k for midlevel to senior associates, the difference in overall compensation is huge. Under the current DPW scale, an associate who spends five full years at a lockstep firm will earn about $235k in bonuses (15k + 25k + 50k + 65k + 80k). If you're at a blackbox firm don't expect to earn anywhere near that.

[star fox]

I mean do associates really have any clue if a firm is secretly fucked financially?

[Anonymous User]

NYC summer here curious about maybe 3L OCI.

Can anyone speak to Kirkland, in particular its M&A and restructuring practices? I've heard mixed things, particularly with how the free market thing plays in and how the non-equity partner thing affects the firm's culture. Can anyone speak to this?

[Desert Fox]

fobstory.jpeg

[Anonymous User]

Current associate here. I'd advise against joining any firm that doesn't have public, lockstep bonuses. Firms with blackbox bonuses almost always pay lower bonuses. This wasn't as big an issue a few years ago when lockstep bonuses were relatively small to begin with, but with lockstep bonuses now at $50k-$100k for midlevel to senior associates, the difference in overall compensation is huge. Under the current DPW scale, an associate who spends five full years at a lockstep firm will earn about $235k in bonuses (15k + 25k + 50k + 65k + 80k). If you're at a blackbox firm don't expect to earn anywhere near that.

Where do I get a list of all the firms with lockstep bonuses?

[Anonymous User]

NYC summer here curious about maybe 3L OCI.

Can anyone speak to Kirkland, in particular its M&A and restructuring practices? I've heard mixed things, particularly with how the free market thing plays in and how the non-equity partner thing affects the firm's culture. Can anyone speak to this?

I'm summering with KE (so take this with appropriate grain of salt, i'm sure there are associates/partners around here that can provide better commentary). This is for the Chicago office btw so i dunno how much of this translates to our NY office. I'm working with both corporate and restructuring so happy to answer specific questions about both to the extent that i can. For now I can say that restructuring is extremely busy. Corporate seems busy too but the group is just so much bigger that i'm sure that there's probably a wider range.

I remember interviewing with V5 firms and they were all so eager to point out how the free market meant you'd be fighting for work etc...From what I've seen it doesn't look like that's the case if you're not gunning for share partner. There's so much work that it's probably more accurate to say you're fighting off work. But there does seem to be a club of baller share partners (especially in corporate) that you need to have in your corner if you want to make share partner yourself eventually, so if that's your goal then i could see it being competitive to get on their deals and win their favor.

I'm not sure how the non-equity partner thing affects the firm's culture. It seems like they're basically senior associates that run the deals and manage the juniors/mid-levels while the equity partners go bring in business. I'm guessing they start tipping towards more senior partner roles as they build their own client base.

[Anonymous User]

Current associate here. I'd advise against joining any firm that doesn't have public, lockstep bonuses. Firms with blackbox bonuses almost always pay lower bonuses. This wasn't as big an issue a few years ago when lockstep bonuses were relatively small to begin with, but with lockstep bonuses now at $50k-$100k for midlevel to senior associates, the difference in overall compensation is huge. Under the current DPW scale, an associate who spends five full years at a lockstep firm will earn about $235k in bonuses (15k + 25k + 50k + 65k + 80k). If you're at a blackbox firm don't expect to earn anywhere near that.

Where do I get a list of all the firms with lockstep bonuses?

I don't think there's any current list - you'll have to Google it for each firm. If the firm sent out an associate-wide memo announcing bonuses, chances are ATL picked it up. A lot of blackbox firms, including mine, don't do any announcements and generally fly under the radar as far as bonus reporting goes, so if you can't find anything recent online it's probably not a good sign.

[Anonymous User]

I'm going to Jones Day, which has blackbox compensation after year 1 and I wonder if this is true. People in other threads have reported that bonuses are in some cases above market but obviously they also pay below market to some people too.

[Anonymous User]

NYC summer here curious about maybe 3L OCI.

Can anyone speak to Kirkland, in particular its M&A and restructuring practices? I've heard mixed things, particularly with how the free market thing plays in and how the non-equity partner thing affects the firm's culture. Can anyone speak to this?

I'm summering with KE (so take this with appropriate grain of salt, i'm sure there are associates/partners around here that can provide better commentary). This is for the Chicago office btw so i dunno how much of this translates to our NY office. I'm working with both corporate and restructuring so happy to answer specific questions about both to the extent that i can. For now I can say that restructuring is extremely busy. Corporate seems busy too but the group is just so much bigger that i'm sure that there's probably a wider range.

I remember interviewing with V5 firms and they were all so eager to point out how the free market meant you'd be fighting for work etc...From what I've seen it doesn't look like that's the case if you're not gunning for share partner. There's so much work that it's probably more accurate to say you're fighting off work. But there does seem to be a club of baller share partners (especially in corporate) that you need to have in your corner if you want to make share partner yourself eventually, so if that's your goal then i could see it being competitive to get on their deals and win their favor.

I'm not sure how the non-equity partner thing affects the firm's culture. It seems like they're basically senior associates that run the deals and manage the juniors/mid-levels while the equity partners go bring in business. I'm guessing they start tipping towards more senior partner roles as they build their own client base.

I was the previous poster, thanks so much. That's really helpful.

Two follow-up questions. Do many people lateral into Kirkland? And in their free-market system, if you successfully solicit a partner for work, are you on board for the rest of that deal? Is there any chance that he might switch you out and take on another associate?

I'd be coming from a firm with fairly set deal teams so am just curious.

[2014]

I'm going to Jones Day, which has blackbox compensation after year 1 and I wonder if this is true. People in other threads have reported that bonuses are in some cases above market but obviously they also pay below market to some people too.

ATL reverse engineers the bonus scales at most of the black box or discretionary bonus firms and it tends to be above market for super high billers (like 2600+) market above 2k or 2200 and below market below that. No real way to know if in the aggregate it's above or below but it's probably below.

[84651846190]

I'm going to Jones Day, which has blackbox compensation after year 1 and I wonder if this is true. People in other threads have reported that bonuses are in some cases above market but obviously they also pay below market to some people too.

ATL reverse engineers the bonus scales at most of the black box or discretionary bonus firms and it tends to be above market for super high billers (like 2600+) market above 2k or 2200 and below market below that. No real way to know if in the aggregate it's above or below but it's probably below.

From my research on bonuses, and from talking to people at firms like Orrick, Quinn, Jones Day, etc., basically every firm that does "black box" bonuses is below market ON AVERAGE. The firms that pay above market bonuses usually have no problem telling everyone about it (either officially or through braggadocios associates on ATL).

[rpupkin]

I'm going to Jones Day, which has blackbox compensation after year 1 and I wonder if this is true. People in other threads have reported that bonuses are in some cases above market but obviously they also pay below market to some people too.

ATL reverse engineers the bonus scales at most of the black box or discretionary bonus firms and it tends to be above market for super high billers (like 2600+) market above 2k or 2200 and below market below that. No real way to know if in the aggregate it's above or below but it's probably below.

From my research on bonuses, and from talking to people at firms like Orrick, Quinn, Jones Day, etc., basically every firm that does "black box" bonuses is below market ON AVERAGE. The firms that pay above market bonuses usually have no problem telling everyone about it (either officially or through braggadocios associates on ATL).

+1

Btw, it's basically conventional wisdom that Jones Day pays below market for the majority--and probably the vast majority--of its associates.

[Desert Fox]

fobstory.jpeg

[5ky]

above market bonuses sound great until you realize you have to bill 2600 to get them and by then it's too late and you're trying to lateral to a lockstep firm.

[Anonymous User]

Is cadwalader still a bad place to work? SRZ? Dechert?

Obviously any NY big law is a grind. Which ones make it worse?

Came here to post that these exact three firms are bad according to a lot of associates at my V40. When I told them I chose our firm over Schulte and Dechert, they cringed at Schulte and responded to Dechert with "why were you even considering there?"


Also, Jones Day pays below market bonuses

[Anonymous User]

Is it true that Kirkland made all their summers in NY do corporate? If so, that might be a reason to avoid, if you want to do litigation

[rpupkin]

Is it true that Kirkland made all their corporate summers in NY do corporate? If so, that might be a reason to avoid, if you want to do litigation

Sounds draconian. The next thing you know, KE is going to make all its litigation summers do lit.