Finding (paid) legal employment...now...in patent law Forum

[Anonymous User]

Like many, I came into law school with the glorified notion that patent lawyers were highly desirable. Having done legal research for my law school last summer, I am still jobless despite the gauntlet of 50 or so interviews that I have been through.

I'm looking for an honest assessment beyond OCS BS - how likely is it that I will find a paid job in patent lit this summer or next summer? I came to law school interested in a bottom line (more money, upward mobility, etc.), even though IP piques my intellectual curiosity. Now I face a potential 2L summer making next to nothing, despite being in the top 30% of my class at a T25 school. I also have a technical background and have passed the patent bar.

I am thus writing to ask what area of law makes the most sense for me to look into in order to recoup the costs of LS. Should I worry that I might not make it at all in IP? If I do not get a patent job this semester, am I screwed at Loyola because I will be competing against people that have at least one more summer of firm experience, and non-soft technical majors (I was bio)? If I cannot get an IP job, where is it best for me to start looking for work given that I have already vested so much time into cultivating the IP expertise (and do not have many other skill areas)?

Help is much appreciated, as I am starting to seriously worry about my financial future. Please no retrospectives: I understand that my decision to come to LS in the first place may have been bad, but want to figure out the best way to dig myself out. Thanks in advance.

[Anonymous User]

Like many, I came into law school with the glorified notion that patent lawyers were highly desirable. Having done legal research for my law school last summer, I am still jobless despite the gauntlet of 50 or so interviews that I have been through.

I'm looking for an honest assessment beyond OCS BS - how likely is it that I will find a paid job in patent lit this summer or next summer? I came to law school interested in a bottom line (more money, upward mobility, etc.), even though IP piques my intellectual curiosity. Now I face a potential 2L summer making next to nothing, despite being in the top 30% of my class at a T25 school. I also have a technical background and have passed the patent bar.

I am thus writing to ask what area of law makes the most sense for me to look into in order to recoup the costs of LS. Should I worry that I might not make it at all in IP? If I do not get a patent job this semester, am I screwed at Loyola because I will be competing against people that have at least one more summer of firm experience, and non-soft technical majors (I was bio)? If I cannot get an IP job, where is it best for me to start looking for work given that I have already vested so much time into cultivating the IP expertise (and do not have many other skill areas)?

Help is much appreciated, as I am starting to seriously worry about my financial future. Please no retrospectives: I understand that my decision to come to LS in the first place may have been bad, but want to figure out the best way to dig myself out. Thanks in advance.

Didn't you go to Chicago IP affair last year? Everyone I knew got a 2L SA over there.

[Anonymous User]

OP here...

I guess I wasn't everyone - the program was ripe for CompSci/Engineering majors not Bio. I got one CB but my results have been markedly better from campus OCI. I did have a .1 lower GPA and no patent bar when I applied to Chicago, but only 2/5 people from my school grabbed SA positions there. Of 1400 interviewing law students, obv a lot are not going to make the cut.

[Anonymous User]

OP here...

I guess I wasn't everyone - the program was ripe for CompSci/Engineering majors not Bio. I got one CB but my results have been markedly better from campus OCI. I did have a .1 lower GPA and no patent bar when I applied to Chicago, but only 2/5 people from my school grabbed SA positions there. Of 1400 interviewing law students, obv a lot are not going to make the cut.

Sorry to hear that. The situation is different in my school. IP people did much better in Chicago interview, not so well at all on school OCI. I knew a guy got a V50 offer with below median GPA, but he has a PHD in bio area. Do you have any advanced degree? I know bio is much tough market than CS EE.

[Anonymous User]

have you tried fortune 500 companies, fed programs, etc? I'm sorry, and am sure this sucks. I came from a field where internships were prominent and nobody got paid. It's actually why I left that field, most paying jobs were sketchy. At least that field is fun. I can't imagine the crappiness of practicing law for free unless it's a pro bono cause or something you feel good about doing.

[jbagelboy]

they say patent isn't as rich a field as it was a few years ago, and its really EE or bust unless you have the grades/school to be competitive for a large litigation practice regardless. I know that doesn't help you but its in line with a trend

[Anonymous User]

No advanced degree, which is part of the problem.

I've talked to practitioners who say that this might make me a litigation pinch-hitter (ie. jump between different practice areas), but am skeptical that they simply do not want to tell me that a patent V100 will not hire a Bio Bachelor of Science. Should I abandon the dream? Again, I do find the practice interesting, but its all about the bottom line given my debt and hopeful income. I have tried in-house too with no positive responses yet (no CB, if that is how the process works).

Should I jump boat and go for small local litigators/firms? Should I take classes over the summer or do IP semester abroad or something? I am just worried that as soon as I do this, I will relegate myself to practicing general law outside the patent lit world, which I am not very interested in, with a much smaller salary.

[84651846190]

No advanced degree, which is part of the problem.

I've talked to practitioners who say that this might make me a litigation pinch-hitter (ie. jump between different practice areas), but am skeptical that they simply do not want to tell me that a patent V100 will not hire a Bio Bachelor of Science. Should I abandon the dream? Again, I do find the practice interesting, but its all about the bottom line given my debt and hopeful income. I have tried in-house too with no positive responses yet (no CB, if that is how the process works).

Should I jump boat and go for small local litigators/firms? Should I take classes over the summer or do IP semester abroad or something? I am just worried that as soon as I do this, I will relegate myself outside the patent lit world, which I am not very interested in, with a much smaller salary.

Is it too late to go back and get at least a masters in bio? That would probably help you get something in patent.

[Anonymous User]

No advanced degree, which is part of the problem.

I've talked to practitioners who say that this might make me a litigation pinch-hitter (ie. jump between different practice areas), but am skeptical that they simply do not want to tell me that a patent V100 will not hire a Bio Bachelor of Science. Should I abandon the dream? Again, I do find the practice interesting, but its all about the bottom line given my debt and hopeful income. I have tried in-house too with no positive responses yet (no CB, if that is how the process works).

Should I jump boat and go for small local litigators/firms? Should I take classes over the summer or do IP semester abroad or something? I am just worried that as soon as I do this, I will relegate myself outside the patent lit world, which I am not very interested in, with a much smaller salary.

Is it too late to go back and get at least a masters in bio? That would probably help you get something in patent.

This is something that I have considered, but is it something that actually happens in practice? Part of me wants to enroll in Stanford's computer science online masters program or like field so I can come in with more expertise (I have all undergrad reqs), or enroll in a similar program for a hot science, but part of me says this is going to be more money and more work at something that I do not like for an ultimate goal that remains elusive.

Edit: OP^

[Anonymous User]

No advanced degree, which is part of the problem.

I've talked to practitioners who say that this might make me a litigation pinch-hitter (ie. jump between different practice areas), but am skeptical that they simply do not want to tell me that a patent V100 will not hire a Bio Bachelor of Science. Should I abandon the dream? Again, I do find the practice interesting, but its all about the bottom line given my debt and hopeful income. I have tried in-house too with no positive responses yet (no CB, if that is how the process works).

Should I jump boat and go for small local litigators/firms? Should I take classes over the summer or do IP semester abroad or something? I am just worried that as soon as I do this, I will relegate myself outside the patent lit world, which I am not very interested in, with a much smaller salary.

Is it too late to go back and get at least a masters in bio? That would probably help you get something in patent.

This is something that I have considered, but is it something that actually happens in practice? Part of me wants to enroll in Stanford's computer science online masters program or like field so I can come in with more expertise (I have all undergrad reqs), or enroll in a similar program for a hot science, but part of me says this is going to be more money and more work at something that I do not like for an ultimate goal that remains elusive.

Edit: OP^

you don't need Stanford CS, a SJSU or Santa Clara U CS degree will be enough to get a 120k job.

[84651846190]

No advanced degree, which is part of the problem.

I've talked to practitioners who say that this might make me a litigation pinch-hitter (ie. jump between different practice areas), but am skeptical that they simply do not want to tell me that a patent V100 will not hire a Bio Bachelor of Science. Should I abandon the dream? Again, I do find the practice interesting, but its all about the bottom line given my debt and hopeful income. I have tried in-house too with no positive responses yet (no CB, if that is how the process works).

Should I jump boat and go for small local litigators/firms? Should I take classes over the summer or do IP semester abroad or something? I am just worried that as soon as I do this, I will relegate myself outside the patent lit world, which I am not very interested in, with a much smaller salary.

Is it too late to go back and get at least a masters in bio? That would probably help you get something in patent.

This is something that I have considered, but is it something that actually happens in practice? Part of me wants to enroll in Stanford's computer science online masters program or like field so I can come in with more expertise (I have all undergrad reqs), or enroll in a similar program for a hot science, but part of me says this is going to be more money and more work at something that I do not like for an ultimate goal that remains elusive.

Edit: OP^

Yes, I know attorneys who have gone back for tech degrees after getting their law degrees.

[Anonymous User]

So, that is to say that the extra $30K to get a masters will be the key to getting at least $120K? because if that does not happen then I have a useless masters as well as a stagnant legal career and crippling debt. If a masters is that helpful, maybe it is worth looking into an online program if I do not have something patent-related to do over the summer.

[Anonymous User]

So, that is to say that the extra $30K to get a masters will be the key to getting at least $120K? because if that does not happen then I have a useless masters as well as a stagnant legal career and crippling debt. If a masters is that helpful, maybe it is worth looking into an online program if I do not have something patent-related to do over the summer.

Do you live in bay area? Yeah get a CS master then you have to network and crack those interview coding questions. But that is for tech companies. CS master will also help you to get into the patent field, patent lawyers with CS background is still highly demanded. For bio-chem patent field, a mere master degree probably is not enough nowadays.

[84651846190]

So, that is to say that the extra $30K to get a masters will be the key to getting at least $120K? because if that does not happen then I have a useless masters as well as a stagnant legal career and crippling debt. If a masters is that helpful, maybe it is worth looking into an online program if I do not have something patent-related to do over the summer.

Do you live in bay area? Yeah get a CS master then you have to network and crack those interview coding questions. But that is for tech companies. CS master will also help you to get into the patent field, patent lawyers with CS background is still highly demanded. For bio-chem patent field, a mere master degree probably is not enough nowadays.

It's not necessarily PhD or bust. I know some people with bio masters who got pros jobs recently. They went to T14s though (but got below median grades).

[Anonymous User]

At my firm a lot of the patent attorneys don't have advanced science degrees. I'm sure it's a plus, but it seems you simply get hired and if you click with the patent people and like the work then you can get put there. I don't know if pigeonholing yourself without having the perfect credentials might have hurt you when there is more of a supply than a demand of people without those credentials? Economically, you'd think it would.

[Anonymous User]

I went through virtually the exact situation last year as a 2L. Somewhat similar stats (T2, but top 10%), bio degree, patent bar, etc. Unfortunately from my experience IP isn't happening right now. At this point I'd recommend taking the patent bar off your resume and trying to get into a firm that does some IP lit but as a general litigator. The hope would then be possibly at some point transitioning your way into doing primarily IP lit cases (depending how prevalent that department is). ITE bachelors in the life sciences simply aren't valuable for patent law. There's too many candidates with advanced degrees or with degrees in engineering/compsci. And obviously patent prosecution is out of the question.

Like you, I considered--and was very close to--pulling the trigger on an MS or second BS in a more marketable degree (EE/CS). Ultimately, I decided it wasn't worth it. It wasn't worth the money considering I'd be getting the degree on a whim that it would make me more hireable, it wasn't worth the time of becoming essentially a career student, and it simply wasn't what I was interested (I studied bio as opposed to engineering in UG for a reason). Yes, the realization was disheartening as I was pretty set on IP law, spent all the time and money taking the patent bar before law school, etc., but IMO that's the way the market is right now for people with our credentials/background.

tldr: Apply to gen lit firms and hope to transition into an "ip lit specialist" at some point. Don't apply as an "I want to be a patent litigator" person

[Anonymous User]

I went through virtually the exact situation last year as a 2L. Somewhat similar stats (T2, but top 10%), bio degree, patent bar, etc. Unfortunately from my experience IP isn't happening right now. At this point I'd recommend taking the patent bar off your resume and trying to get into a firm that does some IP lit but as a general litigator. The hope would then be possibly at some point transitioning your way into doing primarily IP lit cases (depending how prevalent that department is). ITE bachelors in the life sciences simply aren't valuable for patent law. There's too many candidates with advanced degrees or with degrees in engineering/compsci. And obviously patent prosecution is out of the question.

Like you, I considered--and was very close to--pulling the trigger on an MS or second BS in a more marketable degree (EE/CS). Ultimately, I decided it wasn't worth it. It wasn't worth the money considering I'd be getting the degree on a whim that it would make me more hireable, it wasn't worth the time of becoming essentially a career student, and it simply wasn't what I was interested (I studied bio as opposed to engineering in UG for a reason). Yes, the realization was disheartening as I was pretty set on IP law, spent all the time and money taking the patent bar before law school, etc., but IMO that's the way the market is right now for people with our credentials/background.

tldr: Apply to gen lit firms and hope to transition into an "ip lit specialist" at some point. Don't apply as an "I want to be a patent litigator" person

So where did you eventually land if you don't mind? Did you get into big law general litigation and transition into patent litigation?

[Desert Fox]

There aren't a lot of bio cases and there are tons of bio people because they were premed -> fail.

I'm not even sure I'd recommend a CS degree. Alice is assfucking the california districts patent filings.

[Anonymous User]

I went through virtually the exact situation last year as a 2L. Somewhat similar stats (T2, but top 10%), bio degree, patent bar, etc. Unfortunately from my experience IP isn't happening right now. At this point I'd recommend taking the patent bar off your resume and trying to get into a firm that does some IP lit but as a general litigator. The hope would then be possibly at some point transitioning your way into doing primarily IP lit cases (depending how prevalent that department is). ITE bachelors in the life sciences simply aren't valuable for patent law. There's too many candidates with advanced degrees or with degrees in engineering/compsci. And obviously patent prosecution is out of the question.

Like you, I considered--and was very close to--pulling the trigger on an MS or second BS in a more marketable degree (EE/CS). Ultimately, I decided it wasn't worth it. It wasn't worth the money considering I'd be getting the degree on a whim that it would make me more hireable, it wasn't worth the time of becoming essentially a career student, and it simply wasn't what I was interested (I studied bio as opposed to engineering in UG for a reason). Yes, the realization was disheartening as I was pretty set on IP law, spent all the time and money taking the patent bar before law school, etc., but IMO that's the way the market is right now for people with our credentials/background.

tldr: Apply to gen lit firms and hope to transition into an "ip lit specialist" at some point. Don't apply as an "I want to be a patent litigator" person

So where did you eventually land if you don't mind? Did you get into big law general litigation and transition into patent litigation?

After I accepted that IP might not be in the cards, I focused on a general lit job (IP or not) and ended up in mid-law that primarily does general lit - Ironically no IP work at all though. It gradually became less important to me until I really didn't care at all. I will say that if you're truly "IP or bust" it is going to be tough to break in--not impossible--with just a Bio BS. And if you're really not interested at all in CS/EE, then I'd imagine your next best option would be an MS in Orgo. It really all comes down to your own cost/benefit of how much you want to do exclusively IP versus the time/money/opp.costs of an additional degree. Also keep in mind that if you're certain you're not going to enjoy doing non-IP work, then 2 more years of additional education becomes less of a big deal.

[84651846190]

There aren't a lot of bio cases and there are tons of bio people because they were premed -> fail.

I'm not even sure I'd recommend a CS degree. Alice is assfucking the california districts patent filings.

I told you mother fuckers that Alice was a big deal.

[Anonymous User]

I went through virtually the exact situation last year as a 2L. Somewhat similar stats (T2, but top 10%), bio degree, patent bar, etc. Unfortunately from my experience IP isn't happening right now. At this point I'd recommend taking the patent bar off your resume and trying to get into a firm that does some IP lit but as a general litigator. The hope would then be possibly at some point transitioning your way into doing primarily IP lit cases (depending how prevalent that department is). ITE bachelors in the life sciences simply aren't valuable for patent law. There's too many candidates with advanced degrees or with degrees in engineering/compsci. And obviously patent prosecution is out of the question.

Like you, I considered--and was very close to--pulling the trigger on an MS or second BS in a more marketable degree (EE/CS). Ultimately, I decided it wasn't worth it. It wasn't worth the money considering I'd be getting the degree on a whim that it would make me more hireable, it wasn't worth the time of becoming essentially a career student, and it simply wasn't what I was interested (I studied bio as opposed to engineering in UG for a reason). Yes, the realization was disheartening as I was pretty set on IP law, spent all the time and money taking the patent bar before law school, etc., but IMO that's the way the market is right now for people with our credentials/background.

tldr: Apply to gen lit firms and hope to transition into an "ip lit specialist" at some point. Don't apply as an "I want to be a patent litigator" person

So where did you eventually land if you don't mind? Did you get into big law general litigation and transition into patent litigation?

After I accepted that IP might not be in the cards, I focused on a general lit job (IP or not) and ended up in mid-law that primarily does general lit - Ironically no IP work at all though. It gradually became less important to me until I really didn't care at all. I will say that if you're truly "IP or bust" it is going to be tough to break in--not impossible--with just a Bio BS. And if you're really not interested at all in CS/EE, then I'd imagine your next best option would be an MS in Orgo. It really all comes down to your own cost/benefit of how much you want to do exclusively IP versus the time/money/opp.costs of an additional degree. Also keep in mind that if you're certain you're not going to enjoy doing non-IP work, then 2 more years of additional education becomes less of a big deal.

What is the recommended choice from a financial perspective? That is, with top 30% at T25 do I have better financial prospects with a general lit firm (say small/mid-law at $70k/yr) than a big city patent firm ($120-160k/yr)? Even if it takes an extra three years, the latter option seems greatly favored because it pays for itself in a few years, especially considering greater likelihood of partner track. However, I'm not sure if you can really bifurcate the decision like that.

[DildaMan]

No advanced degree, which is part of the problem.

I've talked to practitioners who say that this might make me a litigation pinch-hitter (ie. jump between different practice areas), but am skeptical that they simply do not want to tell me that a patent V100 will not hire a Bio Bachelor of Science. Should I abandon the dream? Again, I do find the practice interesting, but its all about the bottom line given my debt and hopeful income. I have tried in-house too with no positive responses yet (no CB, if that is how the process works).

Should I jump boat and go for small local litigators/firms? Should I take classes over the summer or do IP semester abroad or something? I am just worried that as soon as I do this, I will relegate myself outside the patent lit world, which I am not very interested in, with a much smaller salary.

Is it too late to go back and get at least a masters in bio? That would probably help you get something in patent.

This is something that I have considered, but is it something that actually happens in practice? Part of me wants to enroll in Stanford's computer science online masters program or like field so I can come in with more expertise (I have all undergrad reqs), or enroll in a similar program for a hot science, but part of me says this is going to be more money and more work at something that I do not like for an ultimate goal that remains elusive.

Edit: OP^

you don't need Stanford CS, a SJSU or Santa Clara U CS degree will be enough to get a 120k job.

Yup, the above posts about Alice are right too. EE is a sexier degree.

[Desert Fox]

DF Thread