2L, struck out at OCI - drop out? Forum

[Anonymous User]

2L at CCN. Am one of a few (non-PI) people in my class that I know who still doesn't have a job lined up for next summer. Based on what I've heard, I don't think that the odds of me getting a firm job are very good at this point, and I'm really not sure what else I would want to do with law that would make another two years of school worthwhile.

Everyone keeps encouraging me to stick it out, but to me that seems illogical without a reasonable expectation of a job. Everyone who I have talked to at school seems to think that the worst is over and there is no reason to leave, but I generally try to avoid telling them that I have no job, so they don't have the full story. I can be more honest with those outside of school, but I don't know any lawyers, so none of the people I've talked to outside of school understand much about the legal market.

I came here to get some feedback from people who are not invested in me, and who will (hopefully be able to give me some more objective input. Anyone have any thoughts on whether it makes sense for me to continue with school?

[jbagelboy]

how much debt do you have/how many loans will you have to take out to finish? this is far and away the most important question.

how shitty are your grades? (like bottom 10%, or just below median?). Did you come to law school just to pursue work in the private sector?

also, what else would you do if you left law school? did you have a career before your started?

if you're on a full scholarship then I'd stay. 3L OCI doesn't seem to be a total joke anymore at CCN. Depending on how much you are borrowing from the government to remain a student next semester and beyond, you could consider dropping out, but it would depend on the other factors I considered above.

[Anonymous User]

OP here.

My scholarship covers about 50%. I will come out with about $100k in debt. I have $40-50k now, after taking out debt for this term. Grades are bottom 25%.

I came to law school specifically to enter the private sector, and had a few relatively specific practice areas I was interested in. I don't need to go into these areas immediately, but long-term, I have a focus I want to pursue if I stay in law. I was also hoping to go back to practice in the market I came from, but unfortunately, its one of the most competitive in the country. I followed a career counselor's advice and bid there exclusively since its the only place I have demonstrable ties, rather than bidding NY, where I probably would have done better.

I worked for 6-7 years between college and law school, but I came to law school partly because I wanted to switch careers (as I said, I had a fairly specific idea of what I was hoping to do). If I were to go back, I would probably do something else (possibly related to business development or marketing, which are also not related to what I was doing before, but are similar enough that I could probably find an in after a while).

[KM2016]

OP here.

My scholarship covers about 50%. I will come out with about $100k in debt. I have $40-50k now, after taking out debt for this term. Grades are bottom 25%.

I came to law school specifically to enter the private sector, and had a few relatively specific practice areas I was interested in. I don't need to go into these areas immediately, but long-term, I have a focus I want to pursue if I stay in law. I was also hoping to go back to practice in the market I came from, but unfortunately, its one of the most competitive in the country. I followed a career counselor's advice and bid there exclusively since its the only place I have demonstrable ties, rather than bidding NY, where I probably would have done better.

I worked for 6-7 years between college and law school, but I came to law school partly because I wanted to switch careers (as I said, I had a fairly specific idea of what I was hoping to do). If I were to go back, I would probably do something else (possibly related to business development or marketing, which are also not related to what I was doing before, but are similar enough that I could probably find an in after a while).

Your career counselor should be fired.

[jbagelboy]

OP here.

My scholarship covers about 50%. I will come out with about $100k in debt. I have $40-50k now, after taking out debt for this term. Grades are bottom 25%.

I came to law school specifically to enter the private sector, and had a few relatively specific practice areas I was interested in. I don't need to go into these areas immediately, but long-term, I have a focus I want to pursue if I stay in law. I was also hoping to go back to practice in the market I came from, but unfortunately, its one of the most competitive in the country. I followed a career counselor's advice and bid there exclusively since its the only place I have demonstrable ties, rather than bidding NY, where I probably would have done better.

I worked for 6-7 years between college and law school, but I came to law school partly because I wanted to switch careers (as I said, I had a fairly specific idea of what I was hoping to do). If I were to go back, I would probably do something else (possibly related to business development or marketing, which are also not related to what I was doing before, but are similar enough that I could probably find an in after a while).

Your career counselor should be fired.

I was going to say -- this is very disappointing advise. Did you mass mail new york firms in august/september when it looked like OCI wasn't going so hot? I'm a little curious if you're at CLS who your advisor was, because for all of CSO's flaws they tend to be pretty conservative and urge bidding on large class size, grade-insensitive NYC firms, discouraging putting your eggs in a basket like SF or DC. I don't even think they would be so senseless.

With that much pre-LS experience, you might be a decent candidate for a summer position at a bank, consulting firm, marketing firm, F500 management or compliance, ect. Do you know anyone at the business school, or have you tried networking there? This would look better on your resume for 3L and beyond legal hiring in the private sector than some PI-funded internship.

Maybe some of the 3Ls/recent grads could comment on how someone with bottom 25% grades (but who increased as a 2L) might perform targeting transactional work from a top school as a 3L, with no vault SA but another type of related work.

[mvp99]

OP here.

My scholarship covers about 50%. I will come out with about $100k in debt. I have $40-50k now, after taking out debt for this term. Grades are bottom 25%.

I came to law school specifically to enter the private sector, and had a few relatively specific practice areas I was interested in. I don't need to go into these areas immediately, but long-term, I have a focus I want to pursue if I stay in law. I was also hoping to go back to practice in the market I came from, but unfortunately, its one of the most competitive in the country. I followed a career counselor's advice and bid there exclusively since its the only place I have demonstrable ties, rather than bidding NY, where I probably would have done better.

I worked for 6-7 years between college and law school, but I came to law school partly because I wanted to switch careers (as I said, I had a fairly specific idea of what I was hoping to do). If I were to go back, I would probably do something else (possibly related to business development or marketing, which are also not related to what I was doing before, but are similar enough that I could probably find an in after a while).

Your career counselor should be fired.

WoW just WOW

[Anonymous User]

OP again.

I think my counselor (a) drank the marketing Kool-Aid that our school is great and employers love us, so grades don't matter, (b) is extremely paternalistic, and thought rather than giving me the facts, she would BS me because I would do better interviewing in a place where I was more enthusiastic and confident (because she doesn't think I can fake these things), and (c) is extremely incompetent. I fully agree she should be fired. I don't go to CLS though, so its not one of theirs.

Did you mass mail new york firms in august/september when it looked like OCI wasn't going so hot?

Our OCI was a little later than most, so I didn't do any mailings until late August. I did do some then, but with very little luck.

With that much pre-LS experience, you might be a decent candidate for a summer position at a bank, consulting firm, marketing firm, F500 management or compliance, ect.

I haven't tried mailing to non-firm positions. Is this something people do? Do a lot of banks/consulting firms/etc have actual legal internship programs, or is it more something that you have to reach out to the legal team directly and convince them to build a position for you/let you shadow someone for the summer? Are there any specific ones that you have heard of people working with during law school summers?

Do you know anyone at the business school, or have you tried networking there?

I I haven't talked to anyone at the business school, but could definitely try reaching out there... is their summer hiring timeline much shorter than the legal one (aka, is it too late to get a 2015 summer job through connections made there)?

Thanks for the insights.

[Anonymous User]

If I'm reading this right (you don't go to CLS, you had late OCI), you're at Chicago. And since you've called the CSO person a "she", I'm assuming its not Paul Woo. Please go speak with Paul ASAP -- in my experience, he extremely helpful and honest. The rest of the office is of dubious quality.

100k debt from UChicago isn't crazy, and 3L OCI is not a joke. A 3L is joining my v5 full time after 3L OCI and having no 2L SA. Definitely anecdotal, but not necessarily abnormal.

[Manhattan]

3L OCI doesn't seem to be a total joke anymore at CCN.

3L OCI is not a joke. A 3L is joining my v5 full time after 3L OCI and having no 2L SA. Definitely anecdotal, but not necessarily abnormal.

I may be wrong, but I was under the impression that you are only allowed to bid on FOUR employers during 3L OCI at UChicago, and that you generally only get one interview with your top private sector pick and maybe one public-sector interview.

Do you know what the person who is joining your V5 firm after graduation did during their 2L summer? From the upperclassmen I've talked to, 3L OCI mainly sounds like a place to trade up instead of a place to pick up firms if you didn't do a 2L SA, although there are occasionally exceptions.

[sparty99]

Nope. I got law firm job from a Top 50 as a 3L and similar class rank.

[Anonymous User]

OP again.

A 3L is joining my v5 full time after 3L OCI and having no 2L SA. Definitely anecdotal, but not necessarily abnormal.

Nope. I got law firm job from a Top 50 as a 3L and similar class rank.

What do people who got jobs from 3L OCI do during their 2L summers? I'm not completely opposed to doing 3L OCI, but only if I can come up with a second summer job that will give me enough credibility to make it possible to go to a firm afterwards. If people don't go the SA route, how do they convince a firm to hire them with no directly-applicable experience?

I really only want to do this if there is a good chance of me getting a job out of it. Otherwise, I am just putting off the inevitable, and stacking up more debt while I do.

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

I was going to say -- this is very disappointing advise. Did you mass mail new york firms in august/september when it looked like OCI wasn't going so hot? I'm a little curious if you're at CLS who your advisor was, because for all of CSO's flaws they tend to be pretty conservative and urge bidding on large class size, grade-insensitive NYC firms, discouraging putting your eggs in a basket like SF or DC. I don't even think they would be so senseless.

OCS told a kid that if he really wanted Cravath he should rank them in his top five. They also told a guy with a 3.7 that he was out at the V10 for lack of WE. Not as catastrophic at the mistake made here but probably more senseless.

PSA: If you are below top third anywhere besides HYS, do not make a bidlist that is anything other than overwhelmingly large-class-NYC-centric.

[Anonymous User]

I was going to say -- this is very disappointing advise. Did you mass mail new york firms in august/september when it looked like OCI wasn't going so hot? I'm a little curious if you're at CLS who your advisor was, because for all of CSO's flaws they tend to be pretty conservative and urge bidding on large class size, grade-insensitive NYC firms, discouraging putting your eggs in a basket like SF or DC. I don't even think they would be so senseless.

OCS told a kid that if he really wanted Cravath he should rank them in his top five. They also told a guy with a 3.7 that he was out at the V10 for lack of WE. Not as catastrophic at the mistake made here but probably more senseless.

PSA: If you are below top third anywhere besides HYS, do not make a bidlist that is anything other than overwhelmingly large-class-NYC-centric.

Not OP but does this include the V10's?
I was very strategic in making my bidlist at median but I did not include any V10's. Even though they have 100+ class sizes, I thought they were too selective for me. However, I know a ton of median students who are going to V10's and now I'm just kicking myself.

Wondering if I screwed myself over. I did bid on slightly smaller places like Jones Day and similar firms though.

[Anonymous User]

OP, I understand your situation. I am in the same school as you and had encountered the same situation as you did. I don't know specifically about my 1L class rank but I would guess it's bottom 1/3. Anyways, after the struck out, I spent the whole 2L year trying to find a job and finally landed a small law firm position in the spring. My grades also improved significantly during the 2L year. From there, I eventually got a biglaw job.
I didn't drop out because I didn't want to leave the law. But you might have a different career objective l than I do. If you do decide to stay, please don't give up hope. Although you need to work extra hard to land a biglaw position, it can happen.

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

OCS told a kid that if he really wanted Cravath he should rank them in his top five. They also told a guy with a 3.7 that he was out at the V10 for lack of WE. Not as catastrophic at the mistake made here but probably more senseless.

PSA: If you are below top third anywhere besides HYS, do not make a bidlist that is anything other than overwhelmingly large-class-NYC-centric.

Not OP but does this include the V10's?
I was very strategic in making my bidlist at median but I did not include any V10's. Even though they have 100+ class sizes, I thought they were too selective for me. However, I know a ton of median students who are going to V10's and now I'm just kicking myself.

Wondering if I screwed myself over. I did bid on slightly smaller places like Jones Day and similar firms though.

If median at CCN, definitely Skadden and Kirkland. Maybe Weil. I suspect the chances of those places hiring you are better than firms that are less grade-conscious but more selective overall (Chadbourne, Seward, etc.).

[Manhattan]

Wondering if I screwed myself over. I did bid on slightly smaller places like Jones Day and similar firms though.

Wut?

Also, I think that pretty much everything in the V10 except for WLRK and Cravath are on the table for someone around median at CCN.

[Anonymous User]

OCS told a kid that if he really wanted Cravath he should rank them in his top five. They also told a guy with a 3.7 that he was out at the V10 for lack of WE. Not as catastrophic at the mistake made here but probably more senseless.

PSA: If you are below top third anywhere besides HYS, do not make a bidlist that is anything other than overwhelmingly large-class-NYC-centric.

Not OP but does this include the V10's?
I was very strategic in making my bidlist at median but I did not include any V10's. Even though they have 100+ class sizes, I thought they were too selective for me. However, I know a ton of median students who are going to V10's and now I'm just kicking myself.

Wondering if I screwed myself over. I did bid on slightly smaller places like Jones Day and similar firms though.

If median at CCN, definitely Skadden and Kirkland. Maybe Weil. I suspect the chances of those places hiring you are better than firms that are less grade-conscious but more selective overall (Chadbourne, Seward, etc.).

I was slightly above median at CCN and only bid one V10 firm. Looking back, it was an enormous mistake that was partly the result of career services telling me to bid more conservatively. Major regret there, but what can you do now.

[Anonymous User]

OCS told a kid that if he really wanted Cravath he should rank them in his top five. They also told a guy with a 3.7 that he was out at the V10 for lack of WE. Not as catastrophic at the mistake made here but probably more senseless.

PSA: If you are below top third anywhere besides HYS, do not make a bidlist that is anything other than overwhelmingly large-class-NYC-centric.

Not OP but does this include the V10's?
I was very strategic in making my bidlist at median but I did not include any V10's. Even though they have 100+ class sizes, I thought they were too selective for me. However, I know a ton of median students who are going to V10's and now I'm just kicking myself.

Wondering if I screwed myself over. I did bid on slightly smaller places like Jones Day and similar firms though.

If median at CCN, definitely Skadden and Kirkland. Maybe Weil. I suspect the chances of those places hiring you are better than firms that are less grade-conscious but more selective overall (Chadbourne, Seward, etc.).

I was slightly above median at CCN and only bid one V10 firm. Looking back, it was an enormous mistake that was partly the result of career services telling me to bid more conservatively. Major regret there, but what can you do now.

Probably not an 'enormous mistake.' If you performed well, then maybe you punched above your weight. But in a parallel universe, you could have bid exactly the same way and struggled to get an offer. Or you could have bid more aggressively and struck out. Or you could have bid more aggressively and landed a V10 offer. The OCI process is a crapshoot, which is why career services tells students to bid conservatively. Better to have a 99% chance of V11-100 offer than a 90% chance of V2-100 offer.

[Tiago Splitter]

3L OCI doesn't seem to be a total joke anymore at CCN.

3L OCI is not a joke. A 3L is joining my v5 full time after 3L OCI and having no 2L SA. Definitely anecdotal, but not necessarily abnormal.

I may be wrong, but I was under the impression that you are only allowed to bid on FOUR employers during 3L OCI at UChicago, and that you generally only get one interview with your top private sector pick and maybe one public-sector interview.

Do you know what the person who is joining your V5 firm after graduation did during their 2L summer? From the upperclassmen I've talked to, 3L OCI mainly sounds like a place to trade up instead of a place to pick up firms if you didn't do a 2L SA, although there are occasionally exceptions.

By "3L OCI" people are really referring to 3L hiring generally. Most 3L positions in biglaw come from mass mailing and not from OCI.

[jbagelboy]

Wondering if I screwed myself over. I did bid on slightly smaller places like Jones Day and similar firms though.

Wut?

Also, I think that pretty much everything in the V10 except for WLRK and Cravath are on the table for someone around median at CCN.

I think you mean WLRK and S&C, if we are identifying the biggest grade sticklers. Although to be fair I don't think Davis Polk or Cravath (or to a lesser degree STB) are reasonable targets from truly median and below, at least not from Columbia and NYU. Pulling data from CLS last year, these four firms only took stone scholars or higher (with one or two outliers at each), meaning, students at least around top 35-40% of the class and higher. Conversely, firms like Kirkland and Weil draw significantly from median-ish. Its possible that this is different at Chicago, since I don't know what kind of honors designations the school provides other than at top 5%.

[Manhattan]

Wondering if I screwed myself over. I did bid on slightly smaller places like Jones Day and similar firms though.

Wut?

Also, I think that pretty much everything in the V10 except for WLRK and Cravath are on the table for someone around median at CCN.

I think you mean WLRK and S&C, if we are identifying the biggest grade sticklers. Although to be fair I don't think Davis Polk or Cravath (or to a lesser degree STB) are reasonable targets from truly median and below, at least not from Columbia and NYU. Pulling data from CLS last year, these four firms only took stone scholars or higher (with one or two outliers at each), meaning, students at least around top 35-40% of the class and higher. Conversely, firms like Kirkland and Weil draw significantly from median-ish. Its possible that this is different at Chicago, since I don't know what kind of honors designations the school provides other than at top 5%.

I have no idea what a Stone Scholar is, but S&C definitely draws from around (and occasionally below) median at UChicago. WLRK and, to a lesser extent, Cravath, on the other hand, tend to be a little pickier about grades from what I've seen.

[Tiago Splitter]

I have no idea what a Stone Scholar is

If only jbb had followed up the words "Stone Scholar" with a clear definition of what that term means...

[Manhattan]

I have no idea what a Stone Scholar is

If only jbb had followed up the words "Stone Scholar" with a clear definition of what that term means...

Wait... CLS really has a "scholar" status for people who are just above median?

[sparty99]

OP again.

A 3L is joining my v5 full time after 3L OCI and having no 2L SA. Definitely anecdotal, but not necessarily abnormal.

Nope. I got law firm job from a Top 50 as a 3L and similar class rank.

What do people who got jobs from 3L OCI do during their 2L summers? I'm not completely opposed to doing 3L OCI, but only if I can come up with a second summer job that will give me enough credibility to make it possible to go to a firm afterwards. If people don't go the SA route, how do they convince a firm to hire them with no directly-applicable experience?

I really only want to do this if there is a good chance of me getting a job out of it. Otherwise, I am just putting off the inevitable, and stacking up more debt while I do.

There are other internships. You can work in-house. You can work at a smaller law firm. Can you do an externship during the school year at the federal government for credit or something? Like , a sexy agency? Have you considered studying abroad for the summer and working at a law firm overseas for free? I mean, why do you have to be all or nothing? You struck out at OCI. Oh no. Boo hoo. OH WELL. LIFE GOES ON. You go to a top school and have prior work experience. Just finish your degree and see what happens. You can always go back to business, right? But you went to law school for a reason. I mean, I have prior work experience too. Never did I think about dropping out after I struck out. I went to law school to become a lawyer. However, perhaps you start trying to get connections at the MBA career fairs as well.

[Johann]

Stick it out you are fine.