Stub Year Weekend Work? Forum

[Cade McNown]

Incoming big law associate (mid Oct. start, large market & large office, litigation or regulatory practice). I'll need to travel some weekends to visit long-distance GF. I'm also supposed to attend a wedding on the Saturday following my first week on the job.

Wondering whether i should anticipate working weekends during my stub year? Would you advise booking refundable plane tickets? Any relevant knowledge or anecdotes are appreciated.

[patogordo]

currently billing, but nothing i couldn't do on the road

[Cade McNown]

currently billing, but nothing i couldn't do on the road

Is your practice group particularly busy? Did you have firm obligations, billing or social, on your first weekend?

[thesealocust]

I know people who were underwater and slammed the moment their "boots hit the ground" and others who had a month or two without work. It's incredibly variable, there's little TLS can say definitively on this.

You can always make plans while working in biglaw, and work can always disrupt them or put you under stress. The only thing different about the stub year is you'll truly have no expectations walking in, and there's a better than usual chance you'll be slow because it takes time to incorporate all of the new associates and get them on projects. Other than that, there definitely aren't kid gloves for weekend work or firedrill or anything.

[patogordo]

currently billing, but nothing i couldn't do on the road

Is your practice group particularly busy? Did you have firm obligations, billing or social, on your first weekend?

yes, yes

[TooOld4This]

There is nothing magical about stub year. In theory, most firms won't "count" those hours, but even that isn't always true. Depending on your practice group(s) and the current work flow, you could be under or overstaffed right out of the gate.

Also, don't have a "this is my stub year" attitude. You would be amazed at how quickly you develop a reputation and how much partners talk.

[Anonymous User]

Non-biglaw new associate. After sitting at my desk mostly bored out of my mind for much of this week, I got called up on Saturday morning to help out with some stuff and worked till evening. Had to cancel plans that day but I actually enjoyed the work, as well as a chance to show my responsiveness and enthusiasm.

I wasn't previously staffed on this matter so there was no expectation that'd be available. I'm pretty sure I could have turned it down without any formal or informal repercussions. (Obviously it would have been different if I were already on it: the team is obviously very busy in the ramp up to trial. That I think is the critical difference between my bout ique and biglaw: unless you are actively staffed on a matter that demands it, no one here expects that kind of availability as a matter of course.

[Anonymous User]

Incoming big law associate (mid Oct. start, large market & large office, litigation or regulatory practice). I'll need to travel some weekends to visit long-distance GF. I'm also supposed to attend a wedding on the Saturday following my first week on the job.

Wondering whether i should anticipate working weekends during my stub year? Would you advise booking refundable plane tickets? Any relevant knowledge or anecdotes are appreciated.

Speaking as a (somewhat) more senior associate, this is a really bad way to approach the start of your job. You should assume you will not have weekends that are free in the sense of being able to visit your GF - you may, but you won't know that till 5pm on the applicable Friday. Telling folks you can't be in the office over the weekend because you're visiting your special lady is the kiss of death.

Wedding should be fine, though not ideal if you get thrown into the fire. But wedding people can understand as long as you are available remotely when the ceremony / reception aren't actually happening.

[de5igual]

My only piece of advice is to book Southwest so that if you ever need to cancel last minute, the airfare isn't wasted.

[gk101]

Incoming big law associate (mid Oct. start, large market & large office, litigation or regulatory practice). I'll need to travel some weekends to visit long-distance GF. I'm also supposed to attend a wedding on the Saturday following my first week on the job.

Wondering whether i should anticipate working weekends during my stub year? Would you advise booking refundable plane tickets? Any relevant knowledge or anecdotes are appreciated.

Speaking as a (somewhat) more senior associate, this is a really bad way to approach the start of your job. You should assume you will not have weekends that are free in the sense of being able to visit your GF - you may, but you won't know that till 5pm on the applicable Friday. Telling folks you can't be in the office over the weekend because you're visiting your special lady is the kiss of death.

Wedding should be fine, though not ideal if you get thrown into the fire. But wedding people can understand as long as you are available remotely when the ceremony / reception aren't actually happening.

This is some hyperbolic nonsense. I don't think it's as awful as you are making it sound and I have had to cancel the last 2 times I tried to get out of town for various unrelated reasons.

[Anonymous User]

Resurrecting this thread because I want to get more of an understanding of what it means to work on the weekend and have to cancel plans. So I get that weekend work is going to be a reality, and the amount of weekend work is unpredictable. But I've also asked around and people seem to say that by and large there isn't a stigma about not doing that work in the office as there would be if you just decided to work from home during the weekdays. So given that, could you still take weekend trips and just work through the trip? (I.e. could you take the train to Philly to visit your girlfriend, VPN in, and work the entire time? Granted that sucks, but that's one step better than having to cancel the trip altogether). Or set aside 4 hours on a Saturday night with the promise that you'll stay up all night to finish whatever work they need?

[Anonymous User]

This probably varies among the firms. If the associates at your firm told you facetime on weekends is not required, then I don't see a problem with your plan to visit your gf on weekends and work from her apt. Even if this is true, personally I would be concerned about starting off on the wrong foot. As others have said, first impressions can stick and you probably want to exude extra enthusiasm and availability when you start. Once you've earned it, I would be more comfortable working from home and turn down assignments etc.

[Anonymous User]

Incoming stub year here. How silly would it be to plan an Xmas family vacation? This year, the 24th and 25th are on a Saturday and Sunday. I was hoping to fly out on Wednesday and take a couple vacation days then come back on boxing day. Bad idea to plan this?

[Anonymous User]

Well December 26th is the federal holiday designated for Christmas Day, so I assume firms will give out that day as a holiday. My firm gives out Christmas Eve as a holiday as well, so not sure if that means we'll get the Friday as a holiday. Also just not sure what federal holidays even mean for big law and face time.

[Anonymous User]

V50 associate who had 2015 as a stub year - I traveled most weekends and it was not an issue. Just bring your computer and any other things you need. In my experience partners hate coming into the office on saturdays so they won't know where you are anyway. Same deal with Christmas - people will work if they have to but it wasn't an issue for me to not be in the office. Plenty of (maybe most) partners are basically gone between December 23 and January 2.

The above anon is right though - definitely don't tell people you're doing this. It makes you look unfocused even if that's not the case.

[Anonymous User]

Similar Q: Family potentially trying to do a vacation the week before Christmas--like December 17-25--less expensive. Starting in September. Too early to take this vacation time?

[2014]

Incoming stub year here. How silly would it be to plan an Xmas family vacation? This year, the 24th and 25th are on a Saturday and Sunday. I was hoping to fly out on Wednesday and take a couple vacation days then come back on boxing day. Bad idea to plan this?

Some firms force you to take vacations in week increments and there may also be policies regarding the holidays (like only so many associates can take vacation in any given week from mid-November through New Years).

To the anon right above - you will be on the earlier end for first years but certainly not TOO early, no one will care.

[thesealocust]

On holiday vacation: almost every lawyer at the firm is going to want to take some amount of time off in December, and as the newest people, you are going to be far from the top of the list to have such a request approved. I wouldn't plan on being able to take days other than the technical federal holiday, but be willing to be pleasantly surprised if it can work out with your group/firm. Also, just because something is a federal holiday doesn't mean you won't have the crazy client/partner who has an emergency or "emergency," so... you know, have fun with that

On weekends: It's extremely rare for there to be weekend work that demands a team of lawyers physically present in the office, but (work) travel over weekends definitely happens and can be somewhat unpredictable, making it tricky to commit to pleasure travel over weekends. You can carve out the time for yourself, but it will often be painful - if there's a document circulating right when your plane leaves, or whatever, you run the risk of annoying everyone you're working with by dropping off the radar even if you fully intended to work while on the move.

Biglaw isn't a 24/7 grind, but a lot of clients, partners, and senior associates will expect and/or reward nearly 24/7 availability. Sometimes the sanest choice is to just live your life and make your plans and be willing to say no or be a little late responding to things sometimes. There are plenty of incentives to put your life entirely on hold, but it's generally not mandatory.

The reality of corporate legal work is that it will depend entirely on your practice group and case/deal flow, however. There's no general rule that will save you if you get pulled onto a gigantic M&A deal trying to launch around Thanksgiving, or whatever. And such a thing happens regularly.

[Anonymous User]

V50 associate who had 2015 as a stub year - I traveled most weekends and it was not an issue. Just bring your computer and any other things you need. In my experience partners hate coming into the office on saturdays so they won't know where you are anyway. Same deal with Christmas - people will work if they have to but it wasn't an issue for me to not be in the office. Plenty of (maybe most) partners are basically gone between December 23 and January 2.

The above anon is right though - definitely don't tell people you're doing this. It makes you look unfocused even if that's not the case.

Is there a line between "don't tell people you're doing this" and making sure that the people you work with understand that you won't be in the office from Thursday-Sunday? Like...are you suggesting that someone looking to take a long weekend should not tell anyone at all and just make sure s/he has a computer available wherever they're traveling? Or is this all nonsense, since a stub year either 1) doesn't have work and therefore doesn't have anyone to inform about the trip in the first place; or 2) has work and shouldn't be taking a long weekend?

[Anonymous User]

As a senior associate, I can only tell you this: the only time I've seen someone get fired was when they snuck out of town for a weekend without telling their team on an active matter. Sure, we might not find out, but if we do (and if we do, it's because we needed you), you are stone cold fucked.

[Anonymous User]

What kind of situations would necessitate coming into the office? Like I know there's going to the printers for cap markets. What other situations are there, so we can try to look out for warning signs that such things are about to pop up?

[Anonymous User]

The answer is that it will depend on so many things: partner, client, type of matter, where you are going, what you are going to do when you get there.

Weekends: In my experience, I can count on one finger the amount of times I have been expected to be physically present in the office on a weekend. What more typically happens is that you are given a crapload of work to do that is just going to be problematic/stressful to accomplish if you are traveling especially if you are traveling to a place/event where you have limited wireless or there's some sort of built in schedule or just some expectation you will be available to do non work shit. This becomes exceedingly stressful (like when you show up to the wedding but disappear from all the events because you are working).

Since you're just traveling to be at home, it does not seem like this will be much of an issue.

Vacations: I am in lit and have never had to cancel a vacation. I have been told not to schedule vacations at a certain time (trial) or have been told to coordinate with other team members (so all the associates don't go on vacation at once). Just be smart. Let your team members know a month in advance and then remind them the week before. If you are a new associate, let assigning partners know so they won't staff you on anything that might require a time commitment during a particular date range.

Edit: To the anon that asked about Thursday-Sunday, if you are planning to be out of the office frequently during weekdays, then it's going to be a problem. At that point you are basically a P-T associate and the only people who can justify that have usually put in a fair number of years at the firm and have kids.

[Anonymous User]

V50 associate who had 2015 as a stub year - I traveled most weekends and it was not an issue. Just bring your computer and any other things you need. In my experience partners hate coming into the office on saturdays so they won't know where you are anyway. Same deal with Christmas - people will work if they have to but it wasn't an issue for me to not be in the office. Plenty of (maybe most) partners are basically gone between December 23 and January 2.

The above anon is right though - definitely don't tell people you're doing this. It makes you look unfocused even if that's not the case.

Is there a line between "don't tell people you're doing this" and making sure that the people you work with understand that you won't be in the office from Thursday-Sunday? Like...are you suggesting that someone looking to take a long weekend should not tell anyone at all and just make sure s/he has a computer available wherever they're traveling? Or is this all nonsense, since a stub year either 1) doesn't have work and therefore doesn't have anyone to inform about the trip in the first place; or 2) has work and shouldn't be taking a long weekend?

As a senior associate, I can only tell you this: the only time I've seen someone get fired was when they snuck out of town for a weekend without telling their team on an active matter. Sure, we might not find out, but if we do (and if we do, it's because we needed you), you are stone cold fucked.

I was the stub year person. Absolutely agree with all of this. I was basically in situation (1) above. I would get a research project on Friday evening and do it remotely over the weekend. I was completely responsive and available to do anything that was needed. They knew generally that my SO was in another city and that I was sometimes out of town on weekends (Friday night thru Sunday night only). Given the team I was on and the way things were run, the only potential issue would have been if they needed an email of something that was a hard copy in the office. I knew for a 100% fact that my senior associate was going to be working from home and would understand if I was doing the equivalent of that and couldn't retrieve the document. They would have thought it was silly if I didn't go because I was worried about this. Do not risk it at all if that isn't the case because I both trust and agree with the above that this is the one thing that could fuck you as a stub year associate - everyone knows you don't know anything, but you're supposed to be committed to the matter and actively learning. If you have any doubt at all, ask if it's ok and let the senior and partner know you're doing it. This is in a secondary market too so it may be the case that the standard NY V10 would never let you do this.

[Anonymous User]

Thanks, this is all really helpful. For what it's worth, I've asked my friends, both in NYC transactional big law, and they both said that there is no expectation that you have to work in the office on weekends, particularly if you're willing to buy and set up a printer and scanner at home, which I will probably do if this turns out to be true. One of them is in corporate, although at Paul Weiss, which I've heard has an intentionally low face time requirement as a matter of culture... not sure if this is true.

Definitely hoping that this turns out to be the case. Weekends would be so much nicer if I could book a nice hotel somewhere, or fly home to see my family, even if I had to then hole up and work.

That said, the more anecdotes, the better! I found it hard to ask people about this over the summer, probably due to my own nervousness, and in any case, I switched firms, so that would have helped anyways.

[dixiecupdrinking]

As a senior associate, I can only tell you this: the only time I've seen someone get fired was when they snuck out of town for a weekend without telling their team on an active matter. Sure, we might not find out, but if we do (and if we do, it's because we needed you), you are stone cold fucked.

I believe you, but this is hard to imagine based on my experience, unless there was a specific reason to think there would be work over the weekend. In fact no one I work with would consider it to be "sneaking out of town" you're not taking a weekday off. That's just "going out of town."