How to make NY biglaw more livable? Forum

[Anonymous User]

My SO and I are both about to start biglaw jobs in New York (both in Midtown). Neither of us are really "New York people"—we like quiet and relaxed, dislike loud and exciting. We'd also like to get as close to 7–8 hours of sleep per night as possible in biglaw. That said, we're committed to staying in NY at least for a few years, so we're looking to make it as livable as possible. Since we'll have two biglaw salaries, we're willing to spend money if it can keep us sane/together/non-burnt-out. Here's what we've thought of so far:

• Live as close to work as possible (Midtown east? UES?)
• Use delivery services for as much as possible—groceries, dry cleaning, amazon, etc
• Get out of NY on weekends when possible (working remotely)

What else should we add to that list? (Or, are any of those ideas dumb wastes of money?) Is paying for a doorman building worth it? Or what about a 2-bedroom instead of a 1-bedroom? Any other tips for making NY more livable, even if they require parting with more of our salary?

[Lincoln]

I wouldn't live in midtown if you want "quiet and relaxed". I think Brooklyn Heights or Carroll Gardens when I think of quiet and relaxed (but that's a far commute). Maybe the UES or UWS, depending on where your offices are.

If you are going to use delivery services, you should get a doorman building. You won't be home, and leaving it on the stoop isn't really an option.

One thing I would add is a home office. Being able to plug in your work laptop to a large screen, mouse and keyboard and have a printer and scanner at home will make working from home much easier. Many people go home and have dinner and then work from there during the evening, but it's not a substitute for the office if you are just on your laptop.

[Anonymous User]

OP, you're not going to get a lot of help if people can't PM you with advice.

[lonerider]

Live in Astoria. /thread

[Anonymous User]

Live in Astoria. /thread

Any suggestions for offices in midtown east? I've heard of Murray Hill and Long Island City from the associates. Is astoria doable as well?

[Tiago Splitter]

Live in Astoria. /thread

Any suggestions for offices in midtown east? I've heard of Murray Hill and Long Island City from the associates. Is astoria doable as well?

Astoria is ideal for midtown east. Although if you want quiet and relaxed I'd just live on the UES and spend even less time commuting.

OP where are the offices located within midtown?

[dixiecupdrinking]

Far Midtown East, like over by Sutton Place, is actually pretty damn quiet. It might be a good choice for you.

Getting out of town on weekends is a really good idea. Changing your surroundings, even for a day, helps you to unplug. Staying at home leads you to never fully get away from work, even when you could, because it's always tempting to get ahead on stuff for the week, etc.

[Anonymous User]

OP where are the offices located within midtown?

Towards the east side (between 3rd and 5th Ave and 45th and 55th Street).

[Hutz_and_Goodman]

I'm a 3L but will making the same decision. People who commuted from Queens to midtown or Brooklyn Heights/Fort Greene (which is farther) seemed to me to have a good situation, but almost all of them said that it really sucks when you can't work from home and either have to come in on the weekend or stay late to then face the commute. It's true that far Midtown East is very quiet, although imo very boring place to live. I would look at Long Island City which is a very quick commute on the 7, quiet, but also has some stuff going on.

[JamMasterJ]

OP where are the offices located within midtown?

Towards the east side (between 3rd and 5th Ave and 45th and 55th Street).

move to lexington near one of the 6 stops. that makes anything in your range like a 15 minute train commute and 5 by car.

[lfars]

Those seem like dumb wastes of money to me.

I live further away in a 1-bedroom and commute in. I never use delivery services, etc. I spend under 2k a month on rent/food/utilities.

Sometimes I hate commuting in (it's only 40 minutes or so), but I've saved so much more money than everyone else. Unless you are in a really busy group billing 70+ hours a week every week and you have to work in the office on the weekends, commuting is not that bad.

-Fourth year biglawyer

[Anonymous User]

Far Midtown East, like over by Sutton Place, is actually pretty damn quiet. It might be a good choice for you.

Yeah, that's someplace we'd looked. It looks like there are some gyms around there too, which would be nice.

Any tips besides finding the right place to live?

[Anonymous User]

Sorry to hijack, but what if you are looking for the same things but are working in the financial district?

[lfars]

Sorry to hijack, but what if you are looking for the same things but are working in the financial district?

Live in Jersey City.

[Anonymous User]

The advice you are getting in this thread is terrible - seriously, a bunch of recent transplants and B&T folks are advising on how to make NYC more "liveable"? LOL. I have lived in NYC for over 30 years, and my wife and I have been working biglaw for a few years. This is how we've solved the problem. Most of our fellow survivors at our firms do most of the below - amazing amount of convergent evolution among associates in how they manage their lives.

(1) Neighborhood - if your office is in Midtown East, UES (but not east of 3rd Avenue). If in Midtown West, UWS. If FiDi, BPC North (i.e, North End Avenue) or the closer neighborhoods in Brooklyn.

Do not - under ANY circumstances - live as close to work as possible. Congrats, you've just volunteered yourself to be the guy who can go in on Sunday to turn the partners comments he left under the senior associate's door. There is very little you can't do remotely these days.

Also, strongly advise against Queens unless your are very $$ constrained. Neither convenient nor sufficently cheaper to justify the inconvenience. Uptown manhattan is uncool, but that provides you with better value. I pay less rent than folks I know who lived (note, always past tense) in LIC for a better space and a shorter commute to work. Also advise against Brooklyn if you work in Midtown because you get less value than uptown NY for marginal "coolness" benefit and a bigger PitA to get out of the City for real. You can't really live far enough out to enjoy the mystical cheaper Brooklyn rents these days. 10 - even 5 - years ago, was a different story.

(2) Doorman v. non-doorman - Without a doorman, you will have great difficult getting packages delivered. Accordingly, doorman is worth it.

(3) Outsourcing - wash & fold laundry, dry cleaning, basic house supplies (drugstore.com) and basic food (FreshDirect / Peapod) can all be outsourced and delivered at marginal increase in cost from doing it yourself. Many buildings at this point even have a cold room they can store food in. You guys will be going through very little food at home anyways, assuming normal associate hours.

(4) Cleaning service / lady - Absolutely necessary. Generally, the super of your building will be able to give you names. I recommend using those over a service because there's more accountability if something goes missing. But I have friends who are happy with a service, so either option can work. You don't need more than one visit every two weeks, assuming both of you are spending long hours outside of your apartment.

(5) Leaving city on weekends - exuberantly expensive and difficult to do regularly. Cheapest (and least traffic-y) options are to head north, upstate NY/western CT/western MA. Anywhere in the direction of a beach is holy hell to get to during warm weather. You want to avoid crossing bridges and tunnels, as they are the traffic chokepoints. Car rental is hellaciously expensive - assume $100-130 per day on summer and holiday weekends and $60-90 per day on other weekends. Keeping a car in the city is also hellaciously expensive and not advisable until you have been in the city for a few years and have more disposible income. I have friends who have done share houses out on Fire Island or Hamptons but that doesn't really work as a weekend thing for a junior lawyer - its more like they go out for a week or two at a time during the summer and then maybe catch another weekend or two elsewhere during the summer.

(6) Home workstation:
-Necessary: (1) at least one large monitor to use with your laptop, potentially two depending on how much space you need. This is essential. Turning comments on a tiny laptop screen is difficult and leads to errors. (2) A dedicated desk.

-Helpful: (1) A serious printer (something that can handle a 50pg document like it aint no thing); (2) A comfortable desk chair you can sit in for 8 hours at a stretch, not a $15 Ikea POS chair. (3) A wireless keyboard and mouse so you don't need to type on the crappy laptop keyboard or use a trackpad; (4) high bandwith internet (VPN connections can suck bandwith like you wouldn't believe)

(BONUS) Overarching advice:
- You're on the right track. The most important thing to do as a junior associate is to find what you need to stay sane and calm. If you can figure that out, you've already beaten half the folks you work with who never can find a way to be sane and happy working in biglaw.

- Getting fixated on sleep will make you unhappy. You cant be a work/sleep machine all the time, and you want to preserve time to hang out with your spouse if at all possible, even at the expense of a little sleep (though at some point, sleep becomes more important).

- Carpe diem. If you have an early night together, make a last minute reservation. If you have a free weekend and she does too, rent a car for a day and go take a hike outside of the city or go to the beach, and make a bigbox store run on the way back to defray the car rental cost by loading up on paper towels et al at suburban prices.

- Spend as much time outside as possible when you're not working. Take walks. Go to the park. You get so little time outside / moving around when you're working that you need it. 30 minutes in a gym doesn't scratch that itch for most folks - we're not talking about staying in shape but something more primal.

[lfars]

^ I don't have a doorman and I get packages delivered to my office. I spent a lot of time working late as a junior, so I ended up getting a car home with my package (pretty easy).

For larger items like furniture, you have to stay at home anyway.

Also, I hate doing this, but ordering seamless saves you a ton of money when you work late. You can pretty much get free dinner/groceries every night when you're busy.

[dixiecupdrinking]

The advice you are getting in this thread is terrible - seriously, a bunch of recent transplants and B&T folks are advising on how to make NYC more "liveable"? LOL. I have lived in NYC for over 30 years, and my wife and I have been working biglaw for a few years. This is how we've solved the problem. Most of our fellow survivors at our firms do most of the below - amazing amount of convergent evolution among associates in how they manage their lives.

(1) Neighborhood - if your office is in Midtown East, UES (but not east of 3rd Avenue). If in Midtown West, UWS. If FiDi, BPC North (i.e, North End Avenue) or the closer neighborhoods in Brooklyn.

Do not - under ANY circumstances - live as close to work as possible. Congrats, you've just volunteered yourself to be the guy who can go in on Sunday to turn the partners comments he left under the senior associate's door. There is very little you can't do remotely these days.

Also, strongly advise against Queens unless your are very $$ constrained. Neither convenient nor sufficently cheaper to justify the inconvenience. Uptown manhattan is uncool, but that provides you with better value. I pay less rent than folks I know who lived (note, always past tense) in LIC for a better space and a shorter commute to work. Also advise against Brooklyn if you work in Midtown because you get less value than uptown NY for marginal "coolness" benefit and a bigger PitA to get out of the City for real. You can't really live far enough out to enjoy the mystical cheaper Brooklyn rents these days. 10 - even 5 - years ago, was a different story.

(2) Doorman v. non-doorman - Without a doorman, you will have great difficult getting packages delivered. Accordingly, doorman is worth it.

(3) Outsourcing - wash & fold laundry, dry cleaning, basic house supplies (drugstore.com) and basic food (FreshDirect / Peapod) can all be outsourced and delivered at marginal increase in cost from doing it yourself. Many buildings at this point even have a cold room they can store food in. You guys will be going through very little food at home anyways, assuming normal associate hours.

(4) Cleaning service / lady - Absolutely necessary. Generally, the super of your building will be able to give you names. I recommend using those over a service because there's more accountability if something goes missing. But I have friends who are happy with a service, so either option can work. You don't need more than one visit every two weeks, assuming both of you are spending long hours outside of your apartment.

(5) Leaving city on weekends - exuberantly expensive and difficult to do regularly. Cheapest (and least traffic-y) options are to head north, upstate NY/western CT/western MA. Anywhere in the direction of a beach is holy hell to get to during warm weather. You want to avoid crossing bridges and tunnels, as they are the traffic chokepoints. Car rental is hellaciously expensive - assume $100-130 per day on summer and holiday weekends and $60-90 per day on other weekends. Keeping a car in the city is also hellaciously expensive and not advisable until you have been in the city for a few years and have more disposible income. I have friends who have done share houses out on Fire Island or Hamptons but that doesn't really work as a weekend thing for a junior lawyer - its more like they go out for a week or two at a time during the summer and then maybe catch another weekend or two elsewhere during the summer.

(6) Home workstation:
-Necessary: (1) at least one large monitor to use with your laptop, potentially two depending on how much space you need. This is essential. Turning comments on a tiny laptop screen is difficult and leads to errors. (2) A dedicated desk.

-Helpful: (1) A serious printer (something that can handle a 50pg document like it aint no thing); (2) A comfortable desk chair you can sit in for 8 hours at a stretch, not a $15 Ikea POS chair. (3) A wireless keyboard and mouse so you don't need to type on the crappy laptop keyboard or use a trackpad; (4) high bandwith internet (VPN connections can suck bandwith like you wouldn't believe)

(BONUS) Overarching advice:
- You're on the right track. The most important thing to do as a junior associate is to find what you need to stay sane and calm. If you can figure that out, you've already beaten half the folks you work with who never can find a way to be sane and happy working in biglaw.

- Getting fixated on sleep will make you unhappy. You cant be a work/sleep machine all the time, and you want to preserve time to hang out with your spouse if at all possible, even at the expense of a little sleep (though at some point, sleep becomes more important).

- Carpe diem. If you have an early night together, make a last minute reservation. If you have a free weekend and she does too, rent a car for a day and go take a hike outside of the city or go to the beach, and make a bigbox store run on the way back to defray the car rental cost by loading up on paper towels et al at suburban prices.

- Spend as much time outside as possible when you're not working. Take walks. Go to the park. You get so little time outside / moving around when you're working that you need it. 30 minutes in a gym doesn't scratch that itch for most folks - we're not talking about staying in shape but something more primal.

You said the same shit as at least half of the other people in this thread.

[JamMasterJ]

The advice you are getting in this thread is terrible - seriously, a bunch of recent transplants and B&T folks are advising on how to make NYC more "liveable"? LOL. I have lived in NYC for over 30 years, and my wife and I have been working biglaw for a few years. This is how we've solved the problem. Most of our fellow survivors at our firms do most of the below - amazing amount of convergent evolution among associates in how they manage their lives.

(1) Neighborhood - if your office is in Midtown East, UES (but not east of 3rd Avenue). If in Midtown West, UWS. If FiDi, BPC North (i.e, North End Avenue) or the closer neighborhoods in Brooklyn.

Do not - under ANY circumstances - live as close to work as possible. Congrats, you've just volunteered yourself to be the guy who can go in on Sunday to turn the partners comments he left under the senior associate's door. There is very little you can't do remotely these days.

Also, strongly advise against Queens unless your are very $$ constrained. Neither convenient nor sufficently cheaper to justify the inconvenience. Uptown manhattan is uncool, but that provides you with better value. I pay less rent than folks I know who lived (note, always past tense) in LIC for a better space and a shorter commute to work. Also advise against Brooklyn if you work in Midtown because you get less value than uptown NY for marginal "coolness" benefit and a bigger PitA to get out of the City for real. You can't really live far enough out to enjoy the mystical cheaper Brooklyn rents these days. 10 - even 5 - years ago, was a different story.

(2) Doorman v. non-doorman - Without a doorman, you will have great difficult getting packages delivered. Accordingly, doorman is worth it.

(3) Outsourcing - wash & fold laundry, dry cleaning, basic house supplies (drugstore.com) and basic food (FreshDirect / Peapod) can all be outsourced and delivered at marginal increase in cost from doing it yourself. Many buildings at this point even have a cold room they can store food in. You guys will be going through very little food at home anyways, assuming normal associate hours.

(4) Cleaning service / lady - Absolutely necessary. Generally, the super of your building will be able to give you names. I recommend using those over a service because there's more accountability if something goes missing. But I have friends who are happy with a service, so either option can work. You don't need more than one visit every two weeks, assuming both of you are spending long hours outside of your apartment.

(5) Leaving city on weekends - exuberantly expensive and difficult to do regularly. Cheapest (and least traffic-y) options are to head north, upstate NY/western CT/western MA. Anywhere in the direction of a beach is holy hell to get to during warm weather. You want to avoid crossing bridges and tunnels, as they are the traffic chokepoints. Car rental is hellaciously expensive - assume $100-130 per day on summer and holiday weekends and $60-90 per day on other weekends. Keeping a car in the city is also hellaciously expensive and not advisable until you have been in the city for a few years and have more disposible income. I have friends who have done share houses out on Fire Island or Hamptons but that doesn't really work as a weekend thing for a junior lawyer - its more like they go out for a week or two at a time during the summer and then maybe catch another weekend or two elsewhere during the summer.

(6) Home workstation:
-Necessary: (1) at least one large monitor to use with your laptop, potentially two depending on how much space you need. This is essential. Turning comments on a tiny laptop screen is difficult and leads to errors. (2) A dedicated desk.

-Helpful: (1) A serious printer (something that can handle a 50pg document like it aint no thing); (2) A comfortable desk chair you can sit in for 8 hours at a stretch, not a $15 Ikea POS chair. (3) A wireless keyboard and mouse so you don't need to type on the crappy laptop keyboard or use a trackpad; (4) high bandwith internet (VPN connections can suck bandwith like you wouldn't believe)

(BONUS) Overarching advice:
- You're on the right track. The most important thing to do as a junior associate is to find what you need to stay sane and calm. If you can figure that out, you've already beaten half the folks you work with who never can find a way to be sane and happy working in biglaw.

- Getting fixated on sleep will make you unhappy. You cant be a work/sleep machine all the time, and you want to preserve time to hang out with your spouse if at all possible, even at the expense of a little sleep (though at some point, sleep becomes more important).

- Carpe diem. If you have an early night together, make a last minute reservation. If you have a free weekend and she does too, rent a car for a day and go take a hike outside of the city or go to the beach, and make a bigbox store run on the way back to defray the car rental cost by loading up on paper towels et al at suburban prices.

- Spend as much time outside as possible when you're not working. Take walks. Go to the park. You get so little time outside / moving around when you're working that you need it. 30 minutes in a gym doesn't scratch that itch for most folks - we're not talking about staying in shape but something more primal.

this is all pretty solid but there are ways of getting a car rental without paying the price mentioned. I.e., if you're going south/east, go to the grove st PATH stop and rent from the place on montgomery. I've gotten cars for 200/week during holidays

[Anonymous User]

ROOSEVELT ISLAND. Seriously.

[Anonymous User]

I have lived in NYC for over 30 years, and my wife and I have been working biglaw for a few years. This is how we've solved the problem. Most of our fellow survivors at our firms do most of the below - amazing amount of convergent evolution among associates in how they manage their lives.

Thanks for all that. Very helpful and very appreciated!

(5) Leaving city on weekends - exuberantly expensive and difficult to do regularly. Cheapest (and least traffic-y) options are to head north, upstate NY/western CT/western MA. Anywhere in the direction of a beach is holy hell to get to during warm weather. You want to avoid crossing bridges and tunnels, as they are the traffic chokepoints. Car rental is hellaciously expensive - assume $100-130 per day on summer and holiday weekends and $60-90 per day on other weekends. Keeping a car in the city is also hellaciously expensive

Am I reading you to say that leaving with a car is better than by train? I'd kind of assumed getting out of the city meant taking a train from grand central, but I don't know the area very well.

[Desert Fox]

If you are doing corp good luck finding a weekend when neither have to work the weekend.

[Anonymous User]

Junior associate at a NYC corporate law firm. I get 7-9 hours of sleep a night, have billed 200+ hours a month since March, and have an outside hobby that takes up 10 hours a week. Here's my take on it.

1. Location. I live within walking distance to my office. The secret is that it's not how late you work -- it's how early you have to get up to go to work the next morning. That's the real killer. Living so close to the office means you are able to sleep in a lot later, rather than commuting 30+ minutes every morning with the added stress of fighting a million people on public transit. While I understand that a lot of people don't want to live close to the office, my group is not a facetime group and so I've never been told to come into the office just to pick something up/do work. I have always been able to work remotely. Personally I recommend that you live close to the office, but it's a personal choice.

2. Don't bother trying to get out of the city every weekend. It's expensive, time-consuming and when there's a live deal, you'll have to cancel them all anyway. As a junior associate, your job is to be available and enthusiastic, and if you're out of the city every weekend, you'll probably quickly develop a reputation for being unreliable. My strategy has been to be available the vast majority of the time, and to save up the goodwill for when I want to take a prolonged vacation.

3. Have something that you do that keeps you sane. I don't care if it's golf, gym, a nonprofit, whatever -- do something outside of the office that keeps you balanced and keeps work in perspective. It's very easy to get sucked into the trap of thinking that your professional success defines you.

4. Cleaning lady is good. Home workstation is good. Doorman building is good. Getting deliveries of home goods like toilet paper is good. But quite frankly I would not bother ordering groceries. You will be eating in the office for most of your meals and you'll probably be too tired/lazy to cook for the others -- those groceries will sit in your fridge and rot.

[mvp99]

Is there a huge difference in $$$$ if I want a 1 bedroom apartment with some extra space (not necessarily a room) where my parents/siblings could stay from time to time? My budget would be not much more than $2000

[lfars]

Is there a huge difference in $$$$ if I want a 1 bedroom apartment with some extra space (not necessarily a room) where my parents/siblings could stay from time to time? My budget would be not much more than $2000

You aren't going to find a 1-bed in Manhattan for around 2000. Maybe in a dingy, older building, but that's rare.

If you look in Jersey City or the outer boroughs you could find a 1 bed in a nicer, new building for around 2000 with central air, etc.

[Anonymous User]

this is all pretty solid but there are ways of getting a car rental without paying the price mentioned. I.e., if you're going south/east, go to the grove st PATH stop and rent from the place on montgomery. I've gotten cars for 200/week during holidays

Shush, man. I've learned tons of rental car secrets over the years but if they get posted on internet message boards then they vanish as fast as you've found them. But the general principle is a good one - creative combinations of mass transit and car rentals can save mega $$$.