I got biglaw as a below-median 3L from a lower T14. AMA. Forum

[Anonymous User]

Hi everyone,

TLS has helped me a lot over the last 4 or so years, and I would like to give back. I landed a big law offer during my spring semester at a lower T14 with below median grades. I’ll try to impart as much advice as I can, with the hope of helping at least a few of you in your job search.

I had below median grades 1L and spent my 2L summer at a mid-sized firm in mid-sized city. My grades stayed roughly the same during 2L. So how did I get biglaw?

1. GRADES – FIND THE CURVE DOCUMENT!

It’s unfortunate, but it’s true: big law firms care about one thing – grades. I once received an inadvertent email from a firm’s HR department saying that my 3.x GPA was lower than their desired 3.y GPA. I spent a good many hours bitching about how unfair this was, since I knew – like many of you know – that grades are not always a fair representation of one’s intellectual capacity or ability to become a successful lawyer.

I still don’t think it’s fair, but the system isn’t changing anytime soon. So what can we do about it? Learn how to play the game!

I found out during fall of 3L that a curve document was circulating around a few of the law reviews around school. A friend of mine had access to it and sent it to me. The document listed about 40 classes along with their grade distributions. Many classes’ curves differed sharply from my school’s suggested 1L curve. Ex: some professors didn’t give out anything below an A-, and many didn’t give out anything below a B+! As someone with a below-B+ GPA, this curve document was a godsend.

I enrolled in as many classes as my law school would allow. All of them, save one, had amazing curves. (An adjunct professor who I wanted to network with taught the one course that didn’t have a good curve.) One of my professors gave 66% of the class A’s and 33% A-‘s (no B’s!!!!!!). By comparison, the professor with whom I wanted to network gave only 10% A’s and 20% A-‘s. My 3L spring semester GPA was about .5 higher than my 1L and 2L GPAs. Did my intellectual abilities improve? Nope. But, I finally found a tool to help me play the game. If I had known about the curve document as a rising 2L, I am sure I would have received a biglaw offer sooner.

Bottom Line: Your chances of landing biglaw will increase if your GPA increases. So, get your hands on those precious curve documents ASAP!!!

2. COVER LETTERS – SKIP HR & BE CREATIVE!

After mass mailing a few hundred HR reps and getting nowhere, I started crafting personalized cover letters to partners. After all, the partners are the decision makers at the firm. HR has grade cutoffs and won’t look past that. Partners, on the other hand, can look past poor GPAs/other resume blemishes -- you just need to craft an email that catches their attention. How to do this?

(a) Geographic Connection. Cast your geographic net far and wide, and don’t be afraid to exploit it! My husband is from country X, so I applied to all big law firms in that country, explaining that my husband was from there and that we were looking forward to settling down there after I graduated. I also applied to all big law firms in country X’s region, saying we were excited about moving to the region. I spent a few years of my childhood in country Y, so I emailed every firm in country Y and region Y telling them how excited I was about moving back. I reached out to partners at every big firm in every city, country and region to which I had a legitimate, convincing connection. Was I lying about my excitement to move to countries ABCXYZ…? No, I was excited about the prospect of moving anywhere…anywhere where I had a job offer!

(b) Practice Area/Resume Connection. Find an area of expertise of yours that stands out on your resume. Once you have decided which geographic regions to focus on, find partners who specialize in the areas in which you have experience. This will grab their attention and help you establish a connection with them if they agree to talk to you.

Look for anything you have in common with the partners. Did you go to the same school? Do you share any of the same hobbies?

Has the partner published any articles or videos? If so, see if you can diplomatically bring up a quick point about the article or video in your email to them. I once reached out to a partner who had published a youtube video about some legal topic, and I told him that I would love the opportunity to work with someone with his expertise and clarity of expression. He was excited by the fact that I found his youtube video, and I’m sure he didn’t mind the ass kissing either.

(c) Foreign Language Abilities. Do you have foreign language abilities? If you do, prove it. Send your cover letter in English + whatever language you claim to speak. Only do this to partners who also speak the other language.

I tried this and got several replies. I think the key here was that I did something to make myself stand out from the hundreds of other desperate law students sending similar cover letters. I also demonstrated that I had valuable language skills, as well as creativity. Unfortunately, my GPA was still too low to snag many interviews at the time, but perhaps this tactic will work for some of you.

Bottom Line: Establish a connection. Make your emails concise and catchy. Be creative!

3. BE RESILIENT!

This sounds cheesy, but it’s true. Getting rejection after rejection hurts, and it may feel impossible to get biglaw or any job at times, but it IS possible, and you CAN do it.

I sent out literally over a thousand resumes. I got just as many rejections, minus one. My ego was wounded, and I was tired. Some days were especially bad. I met with a professor (the one I mentioned above whose class I took because I wanted to network with him) who told me that the only way I would have the slightest hope of getting biglaw would be by leaving the country. He suggested moving to a small country in Africa “because they definitely need lawyers there” and he gave me the contact information of a lawyer who “may or may not still be operating a one-man shop in Mongolia.” I kid you not. I went home and cried, thinking I was a failure with no chance of establishing a successful career. The next morning, I decided my professor was an asshole and I was going to prove him wrong. I sent out 20 resumes that day, and I refused to give up until I found my job.

Also, for every asshole who tells you you can’t do it, there will be ten more people telling you that you can and trying hard to help you succeed! I encountered so many people who were willing to go out of their way to have coffee with me, give me advice, and reach out to their contacts on my behalf.


I really hope that some part of this spiel will be helpful to some of you. I would be happy to answer questions if I can be of any help.

Good luck to you all!

[Mal Reynolds]

Congrats on figuring out that NU grade inflates.

[Anonymous User]

Congrats!!! Mind sharing when you got the job?

[Anonymous User]

Thanks for the post. This was exactly what I came on here looking for today. Hopefully you can provide some more help to a particular situation I'm in.

I'm just above bottom 25% of my class. Had my first interview this morning with a regional big law firm in a large south east city. The first 20 minutes went great until we started talking about grades. Rapidly went downhill from there. Almost guaranteed to not get a callback. I wouldn't even be surprised if they didn't waste the time and effort to send me a rejection notice.

Other than grades, my resume is flawless. Solid WE. Significant contributions to extra curricular activities. Study abroad. Blah blah blah. But shit grades.

I've got another interview with a somewhat larger firm scheduled for next week and I've got a terrible feeling the same thing is going to happen. Any advice on how to handle the inevitable grade question? This job is my first pick and possibly my last chance at getting big law so I've gotta crush it.

[Cobretti]

Congrats on figuring out that NU grade inflates.

most t14s do this. its certainly an easier model than inventing their own grades scheme to try and confuse firms/judges.

[Anonymous User]

Congrats on figuring out that NU grade inflates.

most t14s do this. its certainly an easier model than inventing their own grades scheme to try and confuse firms/judges.

At my school, it seems that if it's a seminar with under 15 people, a curve does not exist and the profs tend to give A-s.

[DELG]

Congrats on figuring out that NU grade inflates.

shut up you guys, recruiters read this

[should-i-do-it]

Congrats on figuring out that NU grade inflates.

shut up you guys, recruiters read this

NU GRADE INFLATES

[mvp99]

Everyone knows schools a lot grade inflate.

[Anonymous User]

Congrats!!! Mind sharing when you got the job?

I got the job around spring break.

[Anonymous User]

Thanks for the post. This was exactly what I came on here looking for today. Hopefully you can provide some more help to a particular situation I'm in.

I'm just above bottom 25% of my class. Had my first interview this morning with a regional big law firm in a large south east city. The first 20 minutes went great until we started talking about grades. Rapidly went downhill from there. Almost guaranteed to not get a callback. I wouldn't even be surprised if they didn't waste the time and effort to send me a rejection notice.

Other than grades, my resume is flawless. Solid WE. Significant contributions to extra curricular activities. Study abroad. Blah blah blah. But shit grades.

I've got another interview with a somewhat larger firm scheduled for next week and I've got a terrible feeling the same thing is going to happen. Any advice on how to handle the inevitable grade question? This job is my first pick and possibly my last chance at getting big law so I've gotta crush it.

OP here. I feel your frustration.

My best advice is to take control of the interview. I felt like the grade question usually arose when there was a lull in the conversation or silence towards the end of the interview. You should be leading the conversation - tell them why you're amazing and why you'd be a great asset for their firm. Have a list of good questions ready so that if there is a lull - or if you see them start glancing through your transcript - you can divert their attention to something you think they should know about you.

If they do ask the grade question, tell them something like this: Grades are a useful tool for measuring a candidate's likelihood of becoming a great lawyer because they assess one's ability to think critically, write well, etc. Unfortunately, my 1L grades do not reflect my abilities, but here is what does: [now give examples from your resume that demonstrate your ability to do everything a law firm looks for. how have you demonstrated your critical thinking abilities? writing abilities? ability to work well on a team? work efficiently?]

Also, you shouldn't feel like this is your last chance. Get your grades up by taking classes with good curves, and just keep applying and networking. If you have a great resume and solid WE, I really believe you will get something, it just may take longer than you'd like.

Good luck!

[Anonymous User]

Congrats on figuring out that NU grade inflates.

most t14s do this. its certainly an easier model than inventing their own grades scheme to try and confuse firms/judges.

At my school, it seems that if it's a seminar with under 15 people, a curve does not exist and the profs tend to give A-s.

OP here. My school did this, too, but unfortunately I didn't know this until well into 2L. I wish I had known sooner, which is why I highlighted the importance of the grade curve doc in my post above. My 2L professors had shitty curves and mostly followed the suggested 1L curve. It wasn't until after I got access to the curve document that I figured out which classes to enroll in. I don't know, but I don't think I was the only 2L in the dark about what classes had the best curves.

[jw316]

Congrats on figuring out that NU grade inflates.

most t14s do this. its certainly an easier model than inventing their own grades scheme to try and confuse firms/judges.

At my school, it seems that if it's a seminar with under 15 people, a curve does not exist and the profs tend to give A-s.

OP here. My school did this, too, but unfortunately I didn't know this until well into 2L. I wish I had known sooner, which is why I highlighted the importance of the grade curve doc in my post above. My 2L professors had shitty curves and mostly followed the suggested 1L curve. It wasn't until after I got access to the curve document that I figured out which classes to enroll in. I don't know, but I don't think I was the only 2L in the dark about what classes had the best curves.

Is there anyway to do this for 1L or are you pretty much stuck with the luck of the draw?

[Man from Nantucket]

Congrats on figuring out that NU grade inflates.

most t14s do this. its certainly an easier model than inventing their own grades scheme to try and confuse firms/judges.

Dat rigor though

[Anonymous User]

[/quote]

Is there anyway to do this for 1L are you pretty much stuck with the luck of the draw?[/quote]

Unfortunately, for 1L you are stuck with the luck of the draw -- unless you have any electives. At my school, we had 1 elective during 1L. Their curves were mostly the same, but some were slightly better (e.g., while some professors gave C's and C+'s, others didn't give anything below a B). A few of these courses were on the curve doc circulating around some of the law journals. Other than electives, though, ain't nothin' you can do about it, unfortunately.

[Anonymous User]

Congrats on figuring out that NU grade inflates.

most t14s do this. its certainly an easier model than inventing their own grades scheme to try and confuse firms/judges.

At my school, it seems that if it's a seminar with under 15 people, a curve does not exist and the profs tend to give A-s.

OP here. My school did this, too, but unfortunately I didn't know this until well into 2L. I wish I had known sooner, which is why I highlighted the importance of the grade curve doc in my post above. My 2L professors had shitty curves and mostly followed the suggested 1L curve. It wasn't until after I got access to the curve document that I figured out which classes to enroll in. I don't know, but I don't think I was the only 2L in the dark about what classes had the best curves.

I suppose I sort of did this on accident...Just started my 2L year. I have one doctrinal class, three seminars, and an externship. Praying this gives me a bounce because I'm a transfer.

[Anonymous User]

Hi there I'm in pretty much the exact same position as you only two years later, and coming across your post has really helped me pull myself out of the hopelessness that I was convinced this situation seems to be.
I was wondering for how long and when you were sending out resumes and emailing partners? Was it mostly concentrated in the fall semester? Did you just work on emailing and trying to make contacts all the way through the spring semester when you got your job?
I'd really appreciate any advice!

[Anonymous User]

Did you get it via mass mailing and what sort of BigLaw firm is it?

p.s. I hope your professor didn't think Mongolia was a "small country in Africa"!

[Anonymous User]

Congrats OP!

I have a similar story. I got big law* in a major market my 3L year as a below median student at a T25. Even more of an anomaly.



(*My firm is a big law market-paying firm but not vault ranked. So not sure if that counts.)

[Anonymous User]

Congrats OP!

I have a similar story. I got big law* in a major market my 3L year as a below median student at a T25. Even more of an anomaly.



(*My firm is a big law market-paying firm but not vault ranked. So not sure if that counts.)

Did you use creative emailing techniques to partners like OP? Also would you mind sharing when you got the job and when you were applying during 3l year? Thanks!!

[Anonymous User]

Congrats OP!

I have a similar story. I got big law* in a major market my 3L year as a below median student at a T25. Even more of an anomaly.



(*My firm is a big law market-paying firm but not vault ranked. So not sure if that counts.)

Did you use creative emailing techniques to partners like OP? Also would you mind sharing when you got the job and when you were applying during 3l year? Thanks!!

My path will probably not be very helpful since it was largely luck/chance. I wasn't really looking for jobs as a 3L because I decided to go into the tax LLM program. So aside from 1 or 2 applications, I'd mostly given up (don't recommend this).


A friend told me of a law clerk opening at the firm for the type of work that I was interested in. I sent in my resume (with my GPA on it), got an interview and got the position. Then it was all about leveraging my law clerk position into a full time position, since it wasn't guaranteed.

It may be worth noting that my resume showed I had a demonstrated interest and pertinent experience for the practice group area they were hiring for.

[s1m4]

Congrats OP!

I have a similar story. I got big law* in a major market my 3L year as a below median student at a T25. Even more of an anomaly.



(*My firm is a big law market-paying firm but not vault ranked. So not sure if that counts.)

Did you use creative emailing techniques to partners like OP? Also would you mind sharing when you got the job and when you were applying during 3l year? Thanks!!

My path will probably not be very helpful since it was largely luck/chance. I wasn't really looking for jobs as a 3L because I decided to go into the tax LLM program. So aside from 1 or 2 applications, I'd mostly given up (don't recommend this).


A friend told me of a law clerk opening at the firm for the type of work that I was interested in. I sent in my resume (with my GPA on it), got an interview and got the position. Then it was all about leveraging my law clerk position into a full time position, since it wasn't guaranteed.

It may be worth noting that my resume showed I had a demonstrated interest and pertinent experience for the practice group area they were hiring for.

Thanks for sharing -- Did grades come up at all during any of your interviews? At the clerkship interview? At the clerkship to associate transition?

[Anonymous User]

Congrats OP!

I have a similar story. I got big law* in a major market my 3L year as a below median student at a T25. Even more of an anomaly.



(*My firm is a big law market-paying firm but not vault ranked. So not sure if that counts.)

Did you use creative emailing techniques to partners like OP? Also would you mind sharing when you got the job and when you were applying during 3l year? Thanks!!

My path will probably not be very helpful since it was largely luck/chance. I wasn't really looking for jobs as a 3L because I decided to go into the tax LLM program. So aside from 1 or 2 applications, I'd mostly given up (don't recommend this).


A friend told me of a law clerk opening at the firm for the type of work that I was interested in. I sent in my resume (with my GPA on it), got an interview and got the position. Then it was all about leveraging my law clerk position into a full time position, since it wasn't guaranteed.

It may be worth noting that my resume showed I had a demonstrated interest and pertinent experience for the practice group area they were hiring for.

Thanks for sharing -- Did grades come up at all during any of your interviews? At the clerkship interview? At the clerkship to associate transition?

Nope. I never brought it up and neither did the 6 people I interviewed with for the clerk position. No interview for the full time position, just got called into the hiring partner's office. No one has even mentioned grades, except HR requested it when I started full-time.

[Anonymous User]

If a partner were to respond to an email, any advice on how to carry on the conversation? Do you ask general questions about his practice...or do you make it evident that you're looking for a job... what kind of questions can you ask to get the conversation going?