NY V5 vs. DC V100 Forum

[Anonymous User]

I'm having a lot of trouble making a final decision. I've narrowed my choices to a NY V5 and two DC V100s. I've really liked everyone that I've met at all three, both in CBs and in second looks. Fwiw one of the DC firms felt like the best "fit," and it also happens to be the one that seems to have the best lifestyle perks insofar as that's a thing.

I want to do litigation (zero interest in corporate), and I would like to best position myself to ultimately exit to a USAO or BigFed. I would also like to keep my future geographic options open as much as possible in the event that my spouse's career ever requires a major move.
What I'm not sure of is whether I would have a significantly easier time lateraling from a "prestigious" V5 than from a relatively unknown (outside of DC) branch firm. Although I should note that the V5 is more renowned for corporate practices than litigation. Both DC firms have strong-ish general lit practices and at least one "Band 1" or Band 2 niche lit or reg practice I'm interested in.

I also want to clerk, at a CoA if possible, and I'm wondering whether firm choice will have any effect on that application or if it's purely a function of grades/LORs.

All things being equal, I would much rather work in DC than NY, both for life preference and because I could pay back my loans faster with DC COL. While we have friends and connections in NY, my spouse and I also have family in DC. In general we'd just rather live there.

But obviously something is holding me back from pulling the trigger, and I don't know whether it's a genuine career concern or just vague prestige envy and an insecure juvenile desire to work at a place people will recognize and respect.

Would love any non-2L input, especially from people who have chosen a smaller firm over a big name and either regret or are happy about that decision. TYIA.

(And thanks for not quoting, now that I've added more info below)

[Anonymous User]

It sounds like you would consider NY. I think a V5 is too good to pass up. Stay for a few years at an amazing lit practice, then lateral to DC to a firm thats better than V100. DC is a great opportunity, but I think in the long run you have a better chance of going to a top shop there from a NYC V5.

disclaimer: 2L who is as of now a strike-out

[Swimp]

2L here:

If you were looking to go to a firm where you wanted to stick it out and see if you could grind your way to Counsel/Partner, I'd recommend you go to the DC firm and never look back. Three factors weigh against that choice in your case: 1) USAO and BigFed jobs are going to be a lot easier to get coming from a prestigious NYC firm (unless the partners at one of the DC firms have good connections that you know about), 2) Ditto for Article III clerkships, and 3) a prestigious NYC firm is going to get you a lot more geographical flexibility in case you need to follow your SO somewhere. I think the V5 is the pretty clear choice here, and I'm far from a prestige whore.

[bk1]

Firm choice generally isn't going to matter for your clerkship applications.

[jbagelboy]

Is DC COL really lower than NY?

Regardless, this decision seems somewhat arbitrary unless we know more about the DC firms - have you talked with the V5 about splitting with the DC office? I know DPW's is pretty small but it's not unheard of, unless you're at CSM/Wachtell it may be worth exploring.

Generally for litigation I don't think being at a large new york firm matters as much and it won't impact your clerkship chances.

[FSK]

Is DC COL really lower than NY?

Without a doubt. It is, however, still very expensive.

[rpupkin]

A few observations:

1. If the DC firms are strong in the niche lit and reg practice you're interested in, and if you'd prefer to live/work in DC, then go work at one of those firms. The Vault rankings are close to meaningless given your focus.

2. Yes, COL in DC is significantly lower than NYC.

3. You probably know this, but it's not easy to get a COA clerkship as an alumni applicant. Most COA judges prefer to hire students straight out and/or applicants who have clerked at a district court first. There are COA judges out there who will hire (and even prefer to hire) alumni applicants, but they're in the minority.

[Anonymous User]

Is DC COL really lower than NY?

Definitely. CoL calculators tend to place the adjusted value (buying power) of $160k DC at anywhere from $200-250k NY. And I know from personal experience that rent and general daily costs are significantly lower. Not as low as Chicago or Philly, probably, and certainly nowhere near as low as the TX markets, but lower than NY anyhow.

Regardless, this decision seems somewhat arbitrary unless we know more about the DC firms - have you talked with the V5 about splitting with the DC office? I know DPW's is pretty small but it's not unheard of, unless you're at CSM/Wachtell it may be worth exploring.

How do I broach this subject? Do I honestly explain the situation to someone in recruiting and just flat out ask if I could summer in DC because I would rather work there? It's not as though I ever applied to or interviewed with the DC office.

I've also heard around here that splitting is often a good way to get no-offered. Does that not apply when splitting between offices of the same firm?

Generally for litigation I don't think being at a large new york firm matters as much and it won't impact your clerkship chances.

That's good to know. Is it more or less a grades/interview game then?

[Anonymous User]

Recent grad here who faced a similar DC/NY decision and went NY, now clerking on a COA.

Here are a few thoughts:

(1) Clerkship Considerations -- The vast majority of judges will not care which firm you summered at. Your firm is only relevant insofar as it helps you connect with former clerks who can recommend you to their judges, but that isn’t a major consideration. Also, I strongly disagree with the poster who suggested that it’s harder to get a clerkship as an alum. I know many people who have done this and I can only think of one judge who actively disfavors alumni applicants. Many judges prefer alumni. Besides, it sounds like OP is a rising 2L and there’s plenty of time to apply for 2016 clerkships.

(2) Splitting – In my experience, the big NY firms don’t care if you split. They are offering 95%+ of their summers anyways – you would need to do something far, far worse than spend half your summer elsewhere to get no offered. I would just call the recruiting people, say you are also interested in the DC office, and ask about splitting. The worst that happens is they say no. Nobody will remember by next summer, and it won’t affect your standing with them as long as you aren’t a jerk about it.

(3) Based on what you’ve said (and assuming splitting isn’t an option), I would probably go with one of the DC firms. It sounds like they have well-respected practices that you are interested in, you fit better there, and you would rather live in DC. My guess is the DC firms will have more partners with federal government experience/connections, which is more important for moving into government than the name of the firm. If you get a clerkship and want a more prestigious firm, you can probably change firms after clerking. The one area where the V5 clearly wins is geographic flexibility. The prestigious name would help if you needed to move to a smaller market, but I think everything else you’ve mentioned outweighs that consideration.

[baal hadad]

vault doesnt mean fuckall for litigation hth

if you want to live in DC and litigate in DC and you like those firms better why wouldnt you take those jobs

[Anonymous User]

DC V100 is essentially meaningless. There are some V100 DC offices that are total shit, and there are some none V100 that are great DC firms.

List them out.

[rpupkin]

Recent grad here who faced a similar DC/NY decision and went NY, now clerking on a COA.

Here are a few thoughts:

(1) Clerkship Considerations -- The vast majority of judges will not care which firm you summered at. Your firm is only relevant insofar as it helps you connect with former clerks who can recommend you to their judges, but that isn’t a major consideration. Also, I strongly disagree with the poster who suggested that it’s harder to get a clerkship as an alum. I know many people who have done this and I can only think of one judge who actively disfavors alumni applicants. Many judges prefer alumni. Besides, it sounds like OP is a rising 2L and there’s plenty of time to apply for 2016 clerkships.

I agree that most judges won't care which firm an applicant summered at. As for your "strong disagreement" with me about my suggestion that it's harder to get a clerkship as an alum, I can only say that, in the Ninth and DC Circuits, the majority of judges either hire people who are straight out or who have clerked at a district court first. What circuit are you clerking in?

[Anonymous User]

.

[Mr. Carter]

Just my two cents: If you want to live in DC, take a job in DC. To me, big law firms are all so similar in that they offer the same type of work, same hours, same salary, and same career prospects as each other. Careers and future opportunities are unpredictable. You never know which firm would end up being the best choice for you. Perhaps at one of the DC firms you would get more substantive work than at the NYC firm, and that would set you up for a better career. Perhaps you end up finding a niche at the NYC firm that you wouldn't have been exposed to in DC and that ends up guiding the rest of your career. Perhaps at one of the above you end up working for an asshole partner and want to leave right away. You really never know. To me, the city in which you live is a much bigger deal than which firm is paying you $160,000/year to be a junior litigation associate.

But of course everybody is different so please take my advice with a grain of salt.

Regardless, your dilemma certainly is an enviable one. Congrats on the great offers, and best of luck!

[mvp99]

Can someone explain to me how NYC is sooooooo expensive aside from insane rent prices? Food is relatively cheap, you don't need a car (there goes the 12k extra you get in Texas), and firms seem very generous with extra perks (won't have time to actually use the gym anyway), and NYC will bump salaries to 180k by the time I graduate.

[Anonymous User]

Can someone explain to me how NYC is sooooooo expensive aside from insane rent prices? Food is relatively cheap, you don't need a car (there goes the 12k extra you get in Texas), and firms seem very generous with extra perks (won't have time to actually use the gym anyway), and NYC will bump salaries to 180k by the time I graduate.

Please start a new thread if you are really interested in this. I'm already aware of the CoL differences from having lived in both, so it's not really relevant to my questions.

Thanks! And thanks to everyone else for the input so far.
-OP

[hephaestus]

Can someone explain to me how NYC is sooooooo expensive aside from insane rent prices? Food is relatively cheap, you don't need a car (there goes the 12k extra you get in Texas), and firms seem very generous with extra perks (won't have time to actually use the gym anyway), and NYC will bump salaries to 180k by the time I graduate.

Not so sure about that last one.

And OP, do the DC V100s have 100% offer rates/are they financially stable as far as you can tell (e.g. no significant lateral partner defections or shrinking headcounts). One of the big arguments for an NYC V10 are consistent 100% offer rates and financial stability (to the extent it exists in big law).

[Anonymous User]

Can someone explain to me how NYC is sooooooo expensive aside from insane rent prices? Food is relatively cheap, you don't need a car (there goes the 12k extra you get in Texas), and firms seem very generous with extra perks (won't have time to actually use the gym anyway), and NYC will bump salaries to 180k by the time I graduate.

Not so sure about that last one.

And OP, do the DC V100s have 100% offer rates/are they financially stable as far as you can tell (e.g. no significant lateral partner defections or shrinking headcounts). One of the big arguments for an NYC V10 are consistent 100% offer rates and financial stability (to the extent it exists in big law).

The DC firms have had 100% offer rates for at least the past 2 years, but beyond that I'm not sure. Also don't know about cold offers.
Both firms have been around in DC since the 70s/80s and maintained a fairly stable head count for a while now, apparently by design. Very small summer classes and very few laterals.

[Anonymous User]

.

[jbagelboy]

Can someone explain to me how NYC is sooooooo expensive aside from insane rent prices? Food is relatively cheap, you don't need a car (there goes the 12k extra you get in Texas), and firms seem very generous with extra perks (won't have time to actually use the gym anyway), and NYC will bump salaries to 180k by the time I graduate.

do you have any support for this whatsoever or this just a throwaway

[Shaggier1]

The Vault rankings are close to meaningless given your focus.

Just go where you think you will be happiest. Vault means nothing.