Feeling lost as a 1st year? Forum

[kiwifanta]

I read TLS throughout law school and it has yielded great advice for me. I am now in practice (and relatively new to it) at a regionally prestigious boutique. I am quite happy here, and am learning a lot. But I'm also constantly plagued by stress over my performance and where I stand within my firm, and so wanted to reach out in the TLS community and see if anyone else has these same issues and fears.

The firm in which I practice is not afraid to let associates go for being subpar. I'm not sure what subpar is, aside from the very obvious (objectively bad work, not putting the hours in, etc.). I try very hard at what I do, and genuinely love it. I stay as late as needed, work weekends, attend all firm events, get along with everyone well, and try to stay aware of myself and my place in the firm.

Still, no matter how hard I try, I don't always hit the mark on assignments. I occasionally miss the target (not by far, but you know, I don't get it spot-on). It's also not infrequent that the writing style used in an assignment isn't the partner's exact style, so things come back to me with those sorts of "corrections." I get a "good job" here and there as well, and there are times when a partner is straightforward and says, "This wasn't so great."

Maybe I'm impatient, but I want to be so great as this job, and I am often stressed out by the fact that I'm not there yet (or don't feel like I am). I want to ask one of the partners how I am doing, and the truth of it, but I'm also terrified of hearing the bad. I know I should just ask and brace up.

I want to be here very badly. I have classmates who still are not employed and I am truly grateful to be where I am. I want to stay where I am. The stress that I feel comes from a very real fear that if I don't make all of the right moves, I will lose this opportunity. I don't want to lose it.

Is it normal to feel inadequate right now and have this fear of being laid off? How does one "get over" that feeling? Is there a way to consistently perform in a way that produces good work? How does everyone else navigate that?

Any general advice for how to knock it out of the park when you are starting out in practice?

[Anonymous User]

I had a similar experience when I had to work for more than one superior. Try to separate idiosyncrasies from mistakes. Don't get a bit discourage if you don't match your boss' exact style but note what each one of them likes. Work very hard on not repeating the mistakes. Also, don't try to reinvent the wheel if can avoid it (you probably know this by now).

[dixiecupdrinking]

No advice but maybe some validation. I relate to everything you said and I think it is totally normal. As far as the stylistic stuff goes, especially, you'll work for people who will change language no matter what you write. If your first draft said what their revisions were, they'd just change it to something else. Don't take it personally.

[Skool]

No advice but maybe some validation. I relate to everything you said and I think it is totally normal. As far as the stylistic stuff goes, especially, you'll work for people who will change language no matter what you write. If your first draft said what their revisions were, they'd just change it to something else. Don't take it personally.

I think this is solid advice. I know well respected senior attorneys who have lead attorneys sending back significant redlines on stuff they've submitted for filing with the court. Depending on who you're working for, that's just how it goes.

I would also add, always double check your work, check it again, and then check it again. Find someone else who can check it too. And then I would also say, when you're done working on an assignment for senior associates and partners, stop by and ask for feedback , see if you could have done anything better even if they aren't initiating the feedback. This will either get you needed feedback, or At least give you the appearance of taking your work seriously.

[kiwifanta]

Thank you all for your responses. It sounds like part of this will be to stay confident regardless of style-oriented redlines and maybe realizing that those types of redlines are not what lose associates their jobs? It's a relief and a booster in and of itself to know that other people have had these thoughts when starting out in practice.

Also, I really do like the idea of following up to ask for feedback so that I can learn what matters to each partner I work for. (Juggling partners is a lot harder than anticipated, by the way...)

With following up, it isn't completely natural for me and honestly makes me nervous, though I couldn't explain why. How do you all ask for feedback? Ask questions about certain redlines, or go to the attorney's office and just expressly ask for it, or some other way? I know that everyone and every circumstance is different, but it would be great to get a starting point.

[Skool]

When I'm premptively fishing for feedback, I'll usually just walk in when I think the person isn't busy, ask if they have a second to chat, close the door and straight up ask if there's anything I could have done better on the project we just finished working on together. If there was something in particular that stuck in their craw they can bring it up. If they don't I'll prompt them with something specific if there's a specific reason I'm concerned ("I noticed you did x when I've see some other partners do y, and I was just curious if there's anything else you'd like me to keep in mind when I'm working on briefs for you")


If I'm specifically and genuinely concerned about redlines, especially if I question the factual accuracy or scope of a claim someone just edited in, I'll straight up pick up the phone or walk over as soon as I see it to make sure we are on the same page.

This is coming from a paralegal whose worked in super nice open door welcoming civil rights firms. To me, this kind of thing seems generally applicable in any office, so long as there is some openness and inclination toward mentoring in the relationship. I think the mileage you get out of this varies on your office.

[84651846190]

You're doing it wrong if you don't feel lost as a 1st year.

[Anonymous User]

Thank you all for your responses. It sounds like part of this will be to stay confident regardless of style-oriented redlines and maybe realizing that those types of redlines are not what lose associates their jobs? It's a relief and a booster in and of itself to know that other people have had these thoughts when starting out in practice.

Also, I really do like the idea of following up to ask for feedback so that I can learn what matters to each partner I work for. (Juggling partners is a lot harder than anticipated, by the way...)

With following up, it isn't completely natural for me and honestly makes me nervous, though I couldn't explain why. How do you all ask for feedback? Ask questions about certain redlines, or go to the attorney's office and just expressly ask for it, or some other way? I know that everyone and every circumstance is different, but it would be great to get a starting point.

I think other people are blowing smoke up your ass a little bit. False confidence does no good. Your heavy markups are probably partially stylistic, but also probably because your work needs improvement. Most first year work sucks.

It is important to understand that you have a job where 95% of the people get fired. You, therefore, are likely to get fired. Maybe not this year, or the next, but four or five years down the line? Yep, 95% chance you're getting fired. And therefore, there's a 95% chance that your work is the kind of work that, with normal improvement over the years, will still be fireable eventually.

But here's the deal - you have to get over that. Sooner rather than later. Partners will call you an idiot, clients will curse you over the phone, lawyers on the other side will complain to the partner running your matter that you are fucking up a deal. It's just how it is. And you will fear that, heck, you'll know that the odds are, someone elsewhere is doing it better than you, and since there is only room for 1 (or 2, or 3) in the end, that means you're fired.

But so what? They're still paying you. You're still developing skills that you can use to get jobs elsewhere. And maybe, just maybe, everyone else is getting yelled at, cursed at, marked up and generally crapped on more than you, and you'll win the lottery.

if you worry, you'll be fucked before you get in the door. My dad made it - was a partner at a big firm - and when I started work, his self-described most important piece of advice was to never, ever worry about who was doing better and who worse and all that shit. He said, put your head down, do your best work, listen carefully when folks give you advice (which is harder to do than it sounds, since the temptation is to dismiss heavy markups as "stylistic" or "someone just marking for the sake of marking" - try not to be defensive), and then in 5 years, put your head up, see who's left, and figure out where you stand. 5 years later, I can tell you that was very wise counsel, and it has served me very, very well.

[Anonymous User]

Thank you all for your responses. It sounds like part of this will be to stay confident regardless of style-oriented redlines and maybe realizing that those types of redlines are not what lose associates their jobs? It's a relief and a booster in and of itself to know that other people have had these thoughts when starting out in practice.

Also, I really do like the idea of following up to ask for feedback so that I can learn what matters to each partner I work for. (Juggling partners is a lot harder than anticipated, by the way...)

With following up, it isn't completely natural for me and honestly makes me nervous, though I couldn't explain why. How do you all ask for feedback? Ask questions about certain redlines, or go to the attorney's office and just expressly ask for it, or some other way? I know that everyone and every circumstance is different, but it would be great to get a starting point.

I think other people are blowing smoke up your ass a little bit. False confidence does no good. Your heavy markups are probably partially stylistic, but also probably because your work needs improvement. Most first year work sucks.

It is important to understand that you have a job where 95% of the people get fired. You, therefore, are likely to get fired. Maybe not this year, or the next, but four or five years down the line? Yep, 95% chance you're getting fired. And therefore, there's a 95% chance that your work is the kind of work that, with normal improvement over the years, will still be fireable eventually.

But here's the deal - you have to get over that. Sooner rather than later. Partners will call you an idiot, clients will curse you over the phone, lawyers on the other side will complain to the partner running your matter that you are fucking up a deal. It's just how it is. And you will fear that, heck, you'll know that the odds are, someone elsewhere is doing it better than you, and since there is only room for 1 (or 2, or 3) in the end, that means you're fired.

But so what? They're still paying you. You're still developing skills that you can use to get jobs elsewhere. And maybe, just maybe, everyone else is getting yelled at, cursed at, marked up and generally crapped on more than you, and you'll win the lottery.

if you worry, you'll be fucked before you get in the door. My dad made it - was a partner at a big firm - and when I started work, his self-described most important piece of advice was to never, ever worry about who was doing better and who worse and all that shit. He said, put your head down, do your best work, listen carefully when folks give you advice (which is harder to do than it sounds, since the temptation is to dismiss heavy markups as "stylistic" or "someone just marking for the sake of marking" - try not to be defensive), and then in 5 years, put your head up, see who's left, and figure out where you stand. 5 years later, I can tell you that was very wise counsel, and it has served me very, very well.

the implication in your post seems to be that the people that are giving you comments - and the people in your class that will make partner (i.e., not get fired) - are "better" than you at the actual substantive work. if you actually hold that view, you are certainly in the minority.

[JusticeHarlan]

It is important to understand that you have a job where 95% of the people get fired. You, therefore, are likely to get fired. Maybe not this year, or the next, but four or five years down the line? Yep, 95% chance you're getting fired. And therefore, there's a 95% chance that your work is the kind of work that, with normal improvement over the years, will still be fireable eventually.

People make partner for the ability to bring in business, not because they can draft the best merger agreement/motion for summary judgment. Producing solid work product is a necessity to reach that point, but if we're talking "five years down the line" then odds are you aren't getting pushed out for work product reasons, but business ones.

Also, no, 95% of people don't "get fired." Plenty of people leave on their own, before getting to an up-or-out stage, because they'd rather do something else (or would rather not do biglaw anymore).

[Anonymous User]

It is important to understand that you have a job where 95% of the people get fired. You, therefore, are likely to get fired. Maybe not this year, or the next, but four or five years down the line? Yep, 95% chance you're getting fired. And therefore, there's a 95% chance that your work is the kind of work that, with normal improvement over the years, will still be fireable eventually.

People make partner for the ability to bring in business, not because they can draft the best merger agreement/motion for summary judgment. Producing solid work product is a necessity to reach that point, but if we're talking "five years down the line" then odds are you aren't getting pushed out for work product reasons, but business ones.

Also, no, 95% of people don't "get fired." Plenty of people leave on their own, before getting to an up-or-out stage, because they'd rather do something else (or would rather not do biglaw anymore).

Fewer people than you think with "star" long term prospects leave on their own accord. There's a lot of bullshit among biglaw associates - folks getting gently pushed out all of a sudden finding out that biglaw "wasn't for them". Also, note that if everyone stayed, partnership numbers wouldn't go up - they'd just fire more people.

Second, you're just dead wrong about partnership relating to bringing in business, though that's a common myth not just among 2Ls, but younger associates as well. No eighth year lawyer "brings in business" - it's just a ridiculous idea. Partnership at firms with a normal partner track is effectively a bet on whether they can train you to bring in business down the road. If they don't, you'll get your comp reduced down the road or, in the worst case, deequitized.

This isn't to say your firm won't test your ability to scmooze - taking clients to the Open, shooting the shit in a breakout room, etc - but bringing in business? I LOLed. The level of self-delusion necessary to think that the kind of companies sending business to firms charging millions of dollars for services are influenced by the seventh year lawyer who they know there.

[JusticeHarlan]

It is important to understand that you have a job where 95% of the people get fired. You, therefore, are likely to get fired. Maybe not this year, or the next, but four or five years down the line? Yep, 95% chance you're getting fired. And therefore, there's a 95% chance that your work is the kind of work that, with normal improvement over the years, will still be fireable eventually.

People make partner for the ability to bring in business, not because they can draft the best merger agreement/motion for summary judgment. Producing solid work product is a necessity to reach that point, but if we're talking "five years down the line" then odds are you aren't getting pushed out for work product reasons, but business ones.

Also, no, 95% of people don't "get fired." Plenty of people leave on their own, before getting to an up-or-out stage, because they'd rather do something else (or would rather not do biglaw anymore).

Fewer people than you think with "star" long term prospects leave on their own accord. There's a lot of bullshit among biglaw associates - folks getting gently pushed out all of a sudden finding out that biglaw "wasn't for them". Also, note that if everyone stayed, partnership numbers wouldn't go up - they'd just fire more people.

Second, you're just dead wrong about partnership relating to bringing in business, though that's a common myth not just among 2Ls, but younger associates as well. No eighth year lawyer "brings in business" - it's just a ridiculous idea. Partnership at firms with a normal partner track is effectively a bet on whether they can train you to bring in business down the road. If they don't, you'll get your comp reduced down the road or, in the worst case, deequitized.

This isn't to say your firm won't test your ability to scmooze - taking clients to the Open, shooting the shit in a breakout room, etc - but bringing in business? I LOLed. The level of self-delusion necessary to think that the kind of companies sending business to firms charging millions of dollars for services are influenced by the seventh year lawyer who they know there.

Thanks bro, I understand that Goldman isn't sending more work to S&C because some 6th year, everyone knows it's about potential to manage existing relationships with institutional clients and being in new business as you get more senior. But the condescension really adds to your point. What was your point again? Because between all your bluster and loling, you said:

Partnership at firms with a normal partner track is effectively a bet on whether they can train you to bring in business down the road.

Which is the same point I was making, that you make partner based on business development reasons, not because you're work product is superior to the other senior associates.

[Anonymous User]

I don't think its at all the point you're making. They make partners based upon (1) work product (2) work product and (3) work product. They do not really care about your ability to bring in business down the road, beyond a basic sense of your ability to interact with clients without taking your pants off. That comes into play down the road, and there's so much uncertainty that they don't weigh it that heavily when you're an eighth year.

There are lots of different ways to skin the client cat. Some guys are glad handlers, some are nebbishy geeks, some are domineering, some are passive sychophants . . . and all of those types can, and have, figured out ways to use their personas to get business. That's why it's not that important at year eight, why if you can juggle 5 deals at once and produce excellent work and drive process, etc., all the stuff they CAN test by then, you're golden. But that's hard enough to do.

NB, this is all sourced from a relative who is a partner, who sits in on meetings where they decide who to make partner at his firm, which is a biglaw firm. What's your source, cowboy?

[A. Nony Mouse]

Fewer people than you think with "star" long term prospects leave on their own accord.

This is moving the goalposts from "95% of people get fired."

Also, I get sensitive information yada, but don't use anon to be a jerk. It is also highly possible that just because your relative who is a partner believes one thing, not all partners at all firms believe that thing.

[JusticeHarlan]

If your dad told you that all your firm cares about is work product and nothing about personality or potential to work with clients (or making hours or being in a hot practice area when you're up), I'm not in a position to contradict him about the firm. My info comes from partners and senior associates I've spoken to, both at my firm and elsewhere, so I'm confident with my conclusion that 95% of associates don't wind up getting fired for work product.

[Anonymous User]

If your dad told you that all your firm cares about is work product and nothing about personality or potential to work with clients (or making hours or being in a hot practice area when you're up), I'm not in a position to contradict him about the firm. My info comes from partners and senior associates I've spoken to, both at my firm and elsewhere, so I'm confident with my conclusion that 95% of associates don't wind up getting fired for work product.

Hot practice area (or area that is anticipated to be a hot practice area) relative to current staffing is definitely important. But, in his view, it is also something out of your control - if you could confidently ID what practice areas would be hot 5-8 years out, you should be working for Soros, not pushing paper at Stroock & Stroock.

His view is that work product is the only independent variable within your control.

Practice area matters - if your practice area is hot or not hot, that's a huge factor - but there's no way to know what's going to be hot in 2022 when you're picking your group as a 1st year in 2014.
Hours matter, but if your work product is good you will be able to make your hours, because people will give you work. If you're not making hours because you don't work hard, then this conversation doesn't apply to you.
With RARE exceptions, it matters a lot more not to have powerful people DISlike you rather than having powerful people LIKE you. I.e., you don't need to so much build allies as avoid making enemies.

For this reason he advocates keeping your head down, working hard, and not worrying about the bullshit. Most of the bullshit doesn't matter and the bullshit that does matter, you can't control. If you work hard, good things happen.

Sure, maybe he's just BSing me. But I would think that the personal advice of a family member who has actually sat through these meetings for 25 years would be way more useful than what some senior associate tells their junior. Of course, YMMV - this advice is worth exactly what you paid for it.

[09042014]

Of course virtually nobody makes partner on work quality. But you are crazy if you don't think even the shitty partners don't blow first year work product out of the water.

[Anonymous User]

I felt VERY inadequate my first couple years in practice -- to the point of frequent tears that I usually managed to hide. One of my fellow first-year associates got in the habit of telling each other our latest screw ups, and usually the one with the sad tale would be reassured by the other or would say "I can top that screwup, listen to this!". Maybe you can find another young lawyer in your firm or elsewhere to commiserate with?
Lots of red ink was spilled on my drafts, that's common. I remember seeing how a partner heavily edited his own stuff; that made me feel good.
It definitely got better over time, and my confidence and work quality improved. By the third year, no tears (OK, I'm a girl, but surely guys have some internal tears).
My firm has annual evaluations, but I wouldn't wait for that, and partners likely aren't prepared to give a spontaneous, thoughtful evaluation. I suggest asking for feedback in small doses -- occasionally, after a memo or project is completed. You can do that by email or in person. Ask something like -- how did I do on this memo/project? Are there things I can improve on or work on? You will get "points" just for asking. When I got concrete suggestions, I tried to follow them, and that improved my work quality. Asking questions (when supervisors are not in a rush) also helped me.

[Anonymous User]

Of course virtually nobody makes partner on work quality. But you are crazy if you don't think even the shitty partners don't blow first year work product out of the water.

To bring this back to the original topic - most partners are probably more competent than first years. But I still don't think you should necessarily think that a ton of red ink means that you did something wrong - many partners/sr associates are simply not engaged enough to consistently add value when they mark something up. And they frequently have stylistic preferences that are not objective improvements (or for that matter, even grammatically or factually correct). Of course, with the way that big firms work, you are strictly liable for anything that goes wrong, even if you were following someone else's instructions - it's a good thing the hours you spend working to justify rejecting comments or defending your original work are billable!

[Anonymous User]

What's the best way to make that jump from somewhat clueless first year to very valuable mid-level?

[rpupkin]

What's the best way to make that jump from somewhat clueless first year to very valuable mid-level?

It's pretty much common sense. Keep improving your work product and don't blow deadlines. Bill as much as you can stand. If you're stuck working with a partner who thinks you're shit but keeps shoveling you work anyway, do what you can to work for another partner (or partners) who might like you enough to help you out down the road.

[kiwifanta]

Again, thank you all for the differing perspectives. For me, I think that only time will tell what my particular firm seeks in a partner. One of the partners that I work for is very junior, so I may, once I am comfortable, ask point-blank what he believes put him where he is.

I have to imagine, though I have no way of knowing being so junior in practice, that achieving partnership is so individualized, as is how long a firm will keep you on based solely on your work product. At my firm, fit seems to be key. Most everyone above me is an outgoing smooth talker and a "work is my life" type of person, too. So maybe that's a huge component here?

In the meantime, I plan on making the effort to solicit feedback in an attempt to reduce the redlines that I see. If there truly is a major problem with my work product that is objective, I am hoping that comes out when I start asking about my work.

A poster above mentioned being near-tears for some time - I am very familiar with that feeling. I am glad to know it passes. I have actually reached out to other young associates to talk these things out, but it's very rare at my firm for anyone to be openly honest about their screw-ups. I can only think it's cultural (or that everyone else is perfect at everything they do, which I don't think it is, realistically). I wish I had those types of relationships with others in my office, because an in-person sounding board would really help sometimes, especially with the emotional aspect, which can be so energy-draining.

No matter what, I figure that it can't hurt to throw everything I've got into every assignment I touch, and to force myself to ask about my performance afterwards.

[kiwifanta]

Also, another poster mentioned billables. I was working around the clock when I started, but recently hit a slump. How much effort should I be putting into chasing work to meet hours? I do ask everyone if they need help when I am slow, but it's sometimes difficult to get thrown a bone. It feels like organizational issues and nothing personal, though I really do want to be a "go-to" associate someday. Does anyone else experience this and how do you work around it?

[Anonymous User]

Great thread. Thanks everyone.

[Skool]

Also, another poster mentioned billables. I was working around the clock when I started, but recently hit a slump. How much effort should I be putting into chasing work to meet hours? I do ask everyone if they need help when I am slow, but it's sometimes difficult to get thrown a bone. It feels like organizational issues and nothing personal, though I really do want to be a "go-to" associate someday. Does anyone else experience this and how do you work around it?

As you probably know, the best way to stay busy is to build a reputation for excellent work. If I were you, I'd try and figure out which big projects are around the corner and premptively ask to be put on them. Say something to your supervisors like "I'm really interested in X or I have experience with y, it would be great to work on that for you guys". Try and chase work before it arrives, get on the ground floor. Also, build relationships with your peers. Know what they are working on. If they look stressed out and busy, ask if they need help. Maybe they don't have the authority to throw you a bone, but if they would truly welcome your help , they could be allies in getting you staffed on something.

Also, ask experienced people what they would do in your situation.

You should definitely be chasing work. Your job is to sell your labor power. You're a salesman and your market is your office. Your peers are your competition. Always be chasing.